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Post by lunda2222 on Jun 16, 2019 0:24:49 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
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Post by rizdek on Jun 16, 2019 0:54:16 GMT
No, they conveniently exclude logical impossibilities from his repertoire...even though they simultaneously believe God created everything, including logic and so could presumably alter logic on a whim.
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Post by Catman 猫的主人 on Jun 16, 2019 1:09:51 GMT
He knew you were going to ask that.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 16, 2019 1:47:21 GMT
Lets just assume he's not omnipotent if it'll stop this question being asked
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 16, 2019 1:57:12 GMT
All things are possible, just not at the same time and place.
As for an omnipotent being deliberately limiting himself, that could be arranged for a time. If it is arranged forever then the omnipotence would voluntarily cease in that scenario. If however the omnipotent being chose not to limit himself forever that would not mean that he was not omnipotent yet. He's still omnipotent until he chooses to limit himself forever.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 2:56:01 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
These days theists like to say god is not infinitely capable, but merely maximally capable; the smartest, most powerful, most benevolent being that can possibly exist. Of course if god is bound by logic, one loses the idea of god as an uncaused first cause. But that's a stupid argument anyway, so pfffft. It also means accepting that mankind could one day equal god in power and knowledge.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 16, 2019 5:17:17 GMT
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 16, 2019 7:06:54 GMT
There are many photos of Rodin's statue, but I chose this one because of the chemtrails. 
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 16, 2019 7:56:38 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
These days theists like to say god is not infinitely capable, but merely maximally capable; the smartest, most powerful, most benevolent being that can possibly exist. Of course if god is bound by logic, one loses the idea of god as an uncaused first cause. But that's a stupid argument anyway, so pfffft. It also means accepting that mankind could one day equal god in power and knowledge. An attitude one often finds is that people who believe in a god are intellectually inferior and incapable of science and conversely that everyone else is intellectually adept and capable of science . Of course the notion that simply believing in science makes one capable of it is absurd and many who believe in science prove themselves to suffer miserably from the same problems as anyone else who believes things without understanding them. The "dilemma" presented by these word games has been entirely resolved here. That people still struggle with such questions illustrates how people who do not believe in an omnipotent being are easily confused.
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Post by kls on Jun 16, 2019 12:36:17 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
How would doing either of those things be part of His plan? It's presented as a gotcha that is supposed to point at logic fallacies with believing, yet what's the point?
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jun 16, 2019 13:25:26 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
God is so powerful He can put fragments of Himself into biological life forms so He can experience what mortality, suffering and loss are like. Your body IS a prison for God.
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Post by lunda2222 on Jun 16, 2019 14:42:55 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
How would doing either of those things be part of His plan? It's presented as a gotcha that is supposed to point at logic fallacies with believing, yet what's the point? It's not a gotcha. This is known as Omnipotence Paradoxes and have been discussed by theologians since the 11th. century. Several have dedicated their lives to these questions.
The stone is (probably) the oldest, while the prison is a newer version.
Thomas Aquinas advanced a version of the omnipotence paradox by asking whether God could create a triangle with internal angles that did not add up to 180 degrees.
I merely thought it's an interesting discussion point on the religious board. I am interested to hear what people have to say about them.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 16, 2019 15:38:03 GMT
How would doing either of those things be part of His plan? It's presented as a gotcha that is supposed to point at logic fallacies with believing, yet what's the point? It's not a gotcha. This is known as Omnipotence Paradoxes and have been discussed by theologians since the 11th. century.
The stone is (probably) the oldest, while the prison is a newer version.
Thomas Aquinas advanced a version of the omnipotence paradox by asking whether God could create a triangle with internal angles that did not add up to 180 degrees.
I merely thought it's an interesting discussion point on the religious board.
I only think of it as an interesting discussion point for children (and I'm not saying that to be snide). When explaining the power of God to a child, we use the simplistic description, "God can do anything." It sums it up in a way a child can understand. And, later on as the child's thinking matures, she asks "the stone question". It's a good sign. It shows she grasps the logical paradox inherent in the first description and is ready for a more sophisticated one (which would be the "maximally capable" one mentioned by graham in his post). So, the stone or prison questions don't offer any logical support for atheism (and I say that as an atheist). They only show the problem with simplistic descriptions of God's power.
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Post by lunda2222 on Jun 16, 2019 15:51:39 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
These days theists like to say god is not infinitely capable, but merely maximally capable; the smartest, most powerful, most benevolent being that can possibly exist. Yes, the catholic church actually changed the definition of omnipotence in response to these questions. Most deist sects followed them.
A classic atheist response (not mine) is that they where moving the goalpost.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 16, 2019 15:58:40 GMT
All things are possible, just not at the same time and place. As for an omnipotent being deliberately limiting himself, that could be arranged for a time. If it is arranged forever then the omnipotence would voluntarily cease in that scenario. If however the omnipotent being chose not to limit himself forever that would not mean that he was not omnipotent yet. He's still omnipotent until he chooses to limit himself forever. This does not seem to fit in with the standard position of theologians that God can do most anything except change His nature. For surely it is an inseparable aspect of the deity that it knows all (as scripture makes clear); what you are suggesting is the equivalent of God choosing not to be good. In answer to the main question of the thread, many theologians also assume that God is bound by the rules of logic, i.e. He cannot do what is impossible. (It might be added that if one assumes the deity knows everything then it would surely know what cannot be done, and hence would not even attempt it.) This leads of course to the standard question of whether, akin to those of mathematics, the pertinent rules of logic are invented by man, or discovered. For if invented, then this gives an out, and reason why God need not be bound by them. And so on.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 16, 2019 16:41:38 GMT
All things are possible, just not at the same time and place. As for an omnipotent being deliberately limiting himself, that could be arranged for a time. If it is arranged forever then the omnipotence would voluntarily cease in that scenario. If however the omnipotent being chose not to limit himself forever that would not mean that he was not omnipotent yet. He's still omnipotent until he chooses to limit himself forever. This does not seem to fit in with the standard position of theologians that God can do most anything except change His nature. For surely it is an inseparable aspect of the deity that it knows all (as scripture makes clear); what you are suggesting is the equivalent of God choosing not to be good. In answer to the main question of the thread, many theologians also assume that God is bound by the rules of logic, i.e. He cannot do what is impossible. (It might be added that if one assumes the deity knows everything then it would surely know what cannot be done, and hence would not even attempt it.) This leads of course to the standard question of whether, akin to those of mathematics, the pertinent rules of logic are invented by man, or discovered. For if invented, then this gives an out, and reason why God need not be bound by them. And so on. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the "standard position of theologians." I use logic and much reading of actual texts, many commentaries too, but mostly original texts. I have no opinion on whether god can choose not to be good. I suppose even if possible it isn't likely, It is however already apparent that evil has escaped from time to time.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 16, 2019 17:22:02 GMT
This does not seem to fit in with the standard position of theologians that God can do most anything except change His nature. For surely it is an inseparable aspect of the deity that it knows all (as scripture makes clear); what you are suggesting is the equivalent of God choosing not to be good. In answer to the main question of the thread, many theologians also assume that God is bound by the rules of logic, i.e. He cannot do what is impossible. (It might be added that if one assumes the deity knows everything then it would surely know what cannot be done, and hence would not even attempt it.) This leads of course to the standard question of whether, akin to those of mathematics, the pertinent rules of logic are invented by man, or discovered. For if invented, then this gives an out, and reason why God need not be bound by them. And so on. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the "standard position of theologians." I use logic and much reading of actual texts, many commentaries too, but mostly original texts Good; then I am sure you are familiar with Malachi 3:6 : "For I am the Lord and do not change". God, apparently, has no need to change for He is complete and perfect in Himself with no need of anything. The Covenantal name that He gave to Moses to tell the people of Israel just Who God was is this: I AM that I AM or I AM the self-existent One. You are welcome to not having an opinion (then going on to express one, lol). My impression is that, the nature of the Christian deity is regularly associated with goodness and omniscience (as well as some other choice attributes), both in scripture and by the traditionally faithful. And whether or not you are aware or not of the usual philosophical position the fact remains it remains that God would not be able to change His own supposed nature. For one thing this would enable God to be something He is currently not, where most would say that the deity necessarily is only is what it is. 'Escaped' from God? You mean leaked out like urine from a colostomy bag?
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Post by ᵗʰᵉᵃᵘˣᵖʰᵒᵘ on Jun 16, 2019 18:27:02 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
How would doing either of those things be part of His plan? It's presented as a gotcha that is supposed to point at logic fallacies with believing, yet what's the point? That’s the point: to point out the logical fallacy with believing such a thing. The believers want to assert that this God character is an all-watching, all-knowing, all-being entity, yet when it comes to such a mind-bending question like God creating a rock so heavy God itself cannot lift they can’t answer it — because no answer can be given satisfactorily without contradicting the assertion which they stand by with such conviction. (The ‘plan’ is irrelevant.)
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 16, 2019 18:48:04 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?
Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
The answer to both questions is no. 1) because both scenarios are logically impossible and 2) because omnipotent doesn’t mean the ability to do anything. It means to have unlimited power to effect change. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 16, 2019 18:59:05 GMT
Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it? Can God create a prison so secure that he cannot escape from it?
The answer to both questions is no. 1) because both scenarios are logically impossible and 2) because omnipotent doesn’t mean the ability to do anything. It means to have unlimited power to effect change. Unfortunately these would appear to be contradictory. A being can claim as much power to effect change as it likes, but if change is logically impossible then that power is still limited by what can be and what can't.
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