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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 19, 2019 19:49:05 GMT
Thats pretty diverse lol. are the men not stereotypical too by those wide parameters? Maybe. In which case we can agree that the Bible is full, at least in some regards, of stereotypes - which rather mitigates against the broader historicity of some characters lol. But it is not surprising just how restricted women are when represented in scripture - it likely just reflects the way females were restricted in real life among a primitive paternalistic society (and even today many fundamentalists still have a issue with feminism). One reason perhaps why maleness was most comfortably the association and attributation when talking of the supernatural, even if perhaps God was not thought as literally all-male. Well society is full of stereotypes. In short stories, whether fictional or not, the goal is not often to get a complex description of every character. The Bible is nothing but a collection of highlights. I wouldn’t even categorize them as stereotype/archetypes since most them have normal behavior patterns and both men and women are shown to have a similar emotional spectrums. It’s like saying they are stereotypical just became they eat. |
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 19, 2019 19:51:14 GMT
yes she died, as a direct consequence of eating the fruit death was brought into the world. Have you even bothered to read this stuff before you came here bleating about how unfair it all is? OK, "lest YE die". That's a warning of consequences to her (and Adam). But it wasn't a warning that the consequence would also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of her unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents.
We were not created to be physically immortal in the first place, and that includes Adam and Eve. |
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 20:05:40 GMT
OK, "lest YE die". That's a warning of consequences to her (and Adam). But it wasn't a warning that the consequence would also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of her unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents.
We were not created to be physically immortal in the first place, and that includes Adam and Eve. So, even with the "tree of life" to sustain them, A&E were going to die, regardless of whether they were obedient to God? Well, I never heard that one before.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 20:17:07 GMT
yes she died, as a direct consequence of eating the fruit death was brought into the world. Have you even bothered to read this stuff before you came here bleating about how unfair it all is? OK, "lest YE die". That's a warning of consequences to her (and Adam). But it wasn't a warning that the consequence would also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of her unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents.
Yes to be fair the extended consequences were not specifically explained, any way you cut it though she was told what not to do and told what at least the consequence affecting her would be. It should be noted though that there are parts of the bible that are not fantastically verbose, Genesis is certainly one of them. Bear in mind there was no death at all in the garden of eden, it reasonable to assume that Eve might surmise that eating would bring death into the world. I guess at the end of the day we dont really know what happened in the time in the garden, but the general gist of the story is recorded. I accept the story is flawed, but what I dont accept is that it is a tale of teh evils menfolk destroying women.
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 19, 2019 20:31:32 GMT
We were not created to be physically immortal in the first place, and that includes Adam and Eve. So, even with the "tree of life" to sustain them, A&E were going to die, regardless of whether they were obedient to God? Well, I never heard that one before.
A&E had access to the “tree of life” and could have lived forever had they ate from it. But they forfeited that right the moment they chose to sin by eating from the one tree that was forbidden to them. Bad choice. BTW the “tree of life” is a prefiguration of Christ. |
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 20:42:11 GMT
So, even with the "tree of life" to sustain them, A&E were going to die, regardless of whether they were obedient to God? Well, I never heard that one before.
A&E had access to the “tree of life” and could have lived forever had they ate from it. But they forfeited that right the moment they chose to sin by eating from the one tree that was forbidden to them. Bad choice. Then that wouldn't alter my point at all. Their bad choice. No one else's. God warns A&E that THEY will die. But God determines that the consequence shall also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of their unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 20:46:16 GMT
OK, "lest YE die". That's a warning of consequences to her (and Adam). But it wasn't a warning that the consequence would also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of her unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents.
Yes to be fair the extended consequences were not specifically explained, any way you cut it though she was told what not to do and told what at least the consequence affecting her would be. It should be noted though that there are parts of the bible that are not fantastically verbose, Genesis is certainly one of them. Bear in mind there was no death at all in the garden of eden, it reasonable to assume that Eve might surmise that eating would bring death into the world. I guess at the end of the day we dont really know what happened in the time in the garden, but the general gist of the story is recorded. I accept the story is flawed, but what I dont accept is that it is a tale of teh evils menfolk destroying women. Well, let's be generous and suppose that God told Eve that all her unborn descendants will suffer the same consequence for her action. Would that make it any less unfair to punish the children for the crime of the parents?
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 20:47:02 GMT
A&E had access to the “tree of life” and could have lived forever had they ate from it. But they forfeited that right the moment they chose to sin by eating from the one tree that was forbidden to them. Bad choice. Then that wouldn't alter my point at all. Their bad choice. No one else's. God warns A&E that THEY will die. But God determines that the consequence shall also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of their unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents. And that is a reasonable argument.
But lets face it, the story was not written by eye witnesses to explain what went on, it was a story to try and explain how we find ourselves in a fallen state.
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 19, 2019 20:49:09 GMT
A&E had access to the “tree of life” and could have lived forever had they ate from it. But they forfeited that right the moment they chose to sin by eating from the one tree that was forbidden to them. Bad choice. Then that wouldn't alter my point at all. Their bad choice. No one else's. God warns A&E that THEY will die. But God determines that the consequence shall also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of their unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents. When he warned them that they would die, he meant spiritually. And ultimately nobody is punished for A&E’s crime. The bible clearly teaches that we have all sinned. So we will be judged for our own sins, nobody else’s
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 20:54:39 GMT
Yes to be fair the extended consequences were not specifically explained, any way you cut it though she was told what not to do and told what at least the consequence affecting her would be. It should be noted though that there are parts of the bible that are not fantastically verbose, Genesis is certainly one of them. Bear in mind there was no death at all in the garden of eden, it reasonable to assume that Eve might surmise that eating would bring death into the world. I guess at the end of the day we dont really know what happened in the time in the garden, but the general gist of the story is recorded. I accept the story is flawed, but what I dont accept is that it is a tale of teh evils menfolk destroying women. Well, let's be generous and suppose that God told Eve that all her unborn descendants will suffer the same consequence for her action. Would that make it any less unfair to punish the children for the crime of the parents?
Sorry was responding to your other comment. Yeah I dont agree with the punish children for their parents mistakes,but as I said in the other comment, this is not a documentary story, this is a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. I personally dont think the garden of eden narrative is very good in terms of explaining original sin, I think that there are a number of flaws, but it is the story we have and my railing is really against the claim that poor widdle eve was tricked by the nasty men (including God who is some how a man) into being the scapegoat for everything. Was the church guilty of sexism, yes 100%, was this story often used as a tool to promote sexism, absolutely, but in the enlightened age we are in now, we can see more clearly that this is simply two people, one of whom did what they were warned was a terrible idea.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 19, 2019 21:26:41 GMT
Maybe. In which case we can agree that the Bible is full, at least in some regards, of stereotypes - which rather mitigates against the broader historicity of some characters lol. But it is not surprising just how restricted women are when represented in scripture - it likely just reflects the way females were restricted in real life among a primitive paternalistic society (and even today many fundamentalists still have a issue with feminism). One reason perhaps why maleness was most comfortably the association and attributation when talking of the supernatural, even if perhaps God was not thought as literally all-male. Well society is full of stereotypes. In short stories, whether fictional or not, the goal is not often to get a complex description of every character. Never the less effective and complex characters help move any story along in an excellent fashion and are elements for which we praise the greatest writers. Stereotyoes arguably reflect lazy thinking, the needs of proselytizing, a lack of critical historicity - even the prejudices driving the writer. I am sure I can easily find verses which are hardly 'highlights', even if we exclude the tedious lists of begats the reader is wading through at the start. But, granted, one man's stereotype may be another's 'highlight'. That's why superheroes have such a following in modern culture. Stereotypes might be expected to be exactly that: similar and with similar emotional appeal. However there are examples in scripture of behaviour which is not normal: agreeing to kill one's first born, the collection of foreskins, talking to vegetation, hearing without surprise a serpent speaking, claiming to be God on earth, among them. Indeed it is arguable that most of scripture consists of abnormal behaviour for the most extraordinary or ostensibly momentous reasons... I am sure that you can see this example is much more 'wide' than you meant at the start of this exchange. And in any case we were discussing stereotypical characters rather than actions.
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Post by goz on Jun 19, 2019 21:48:04 GMT
Well, let's be generous and suppose that God told Eve that all her unborn descendants will suffer the same consequence for her action. Would that make it any less unfair to punish the children for the crime of the parents?
Sorry was responding to your other comment. Yeah I dont agree with the punish children for their parents mistakes,but as I said in the other comment, this is not a documentary story, this is a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. I personally dont think the garden of eden narrative is very good in terms of explaining original sin, I think that there are a number of flaws, but it is the story we have and my railing is really against the claim that poor widdle eve was tricked by the nasty men (including God who is some how a man) into being the scapegoat for everything. Was the church guilty of sexism, yes 100%, was this story often used as a tool to promote sexism, absolutely, but in the enlightened age we are in now, we can see more clearly that this is simply two people, one of whom did what they were warned was a terrible idea. Why was it Eve and not Adam? Did God flip a coin? Was it because she was only Adam's rib? You said it yourself. This is the start of endemic sexism and subservience and blame.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 22:09:59 GMT
Then that wouldn't alter my point at all. Their bad choice. No one else's. God warns A&E that THEY will die. But God determines that the consequence shall also spread into the world, to be meted out to all of their unborn descendants. If there's a charge of unfairness anywhere, it lies in punishing the children for the crime of the parents. When he warned them that they would die, he meant spiritually. And ultimately nobody is punished for A&E’s crime. The bible clearly teaches that we have all sinned. So we will be judged for our own sins, nobody else’s Mainstream Christianity has long taught that mankind inherited sin from their first parents, Adam&Eve, so that no matter how a person lives their life they must still suffer the punishment their parents suffered. And they offer plenty from the Bible to back up that teaching: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5) "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12) "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (Rom 5:18) "For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
You said that A&E died physically because God cut off their access to the Tree of Life. God could have allowed their future unborn children access, but decided, as scripture teaches, that they would be born sinful before they had committed any disobedience. That is sentencing the unborn children for the bad choice of their parents. That cannot be reconciled with the value of fairness.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 22:24:29 GMT
Well, let's be generous and suppose that God told Eve that all her unborn descendants will suffer the same consequence for her action. Would that make it any less unfair to punish the children for the crime of the parents?
Sorry was responding to your other comment. Yeah I dont agree with the punish children for their parents mistakes,but as I said in the other comment, this is not a documentary story, this is a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. I personally dont think the garden of eden narrative is very good in terms of explaining original sin, I think that there are a number of flaws, but it is the story we have and my railing is really against the claim that poor widdle eve was tricked by the nasty men (including God who is some how a man) into being the scapegoat for everything. Was the church guilty of sexism, yes 100%, was this story often used as a tool to promote sexism, absolutely, but in the enlightened age we are in now, we can see more clearly that this is simply two people, one of whom did what they were warned was a terrible idea. The Garden story is much more than just a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. It is foundational to Christianity. Without A&E messing things up for all of mankind, there is no need for Christ. The Bible calls Jesus "the last Adam", because he is the perfect man who regains for mankind what the first Adam lost.
We don't need to rely on just the Genesis account to find original sin. Here are the scriptures I cited to Cody: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5)
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12)
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (Rom 5:18)
"For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
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Post by Cody™ on Jun 19, 2019 22:27:59 GMT
When he warned them that they would die, he meant spiritually. And ultimately nobody is punished for A&E’s crime. The bible clearly teaches that we have all sinned. So we will be judged for our own sins, nobody else’s Mainstream Christianity has long taught that mankind inherited sin from their first parents, Adam&Eve, so that no matter how a person lives their life they must still suffer the punishment their parents suffered. And they offer plenty from the Bible to back up that teaching: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5) "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12) "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (Rom 5:18) "For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
You said that A&E died physically because God cut off their access to the Tree of Life. God could have allowed their future unborn children access, but decided, as scripture teaches, that they would be born sinful before they had committed any disobedience. That is sentencing the unborn children for the bad choice of their parents. That cannot be reconciled with the value of fairness.
We’ve inherited a sinful nature yes. But we will not be judged on our sinful nature but on the sins we commit. Don’t you see that if God had allowed A&E’s future unborn children access to the tree of life it would have meant an eternity of living in a fallen sinful state for the rest of humanity? |
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 22:48:06 GMT
Sorry was responding to your other comment. Yeah I dont agree with the punish children for their parents mistakes,but as I said in the other comment, this is not a documentary story, this is a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. I personally dont think the garden of eden narrative is very good in terms of explaining original sin, I think that there are a number of flaws, but it is the story we have and my railing is really against the claim that poor widdle eve was tricked by the nasty men (including God who is some how a man) into being the scapegoat for everything. Was the church guilty of sexism, yes 100%, was this story often used as a tool to promote sexism, absolutely, but in the enlightened age we are in now, we can see more clearly that this is simply two people, one of whom did what they were warned was a terrible idea. The Garden story is much more than just a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. It is foundational to Christianity. Without A&E messing things up for all of mankind, there is no need for Christ. The Bible calls Jesus "the last Adam", because he is the perfect man who regains for mankind what the first Adam lost.
We don't need to rely on just the Genesis account to find original sin. Here are the scriptures I cited to Cody: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5)
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12)
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (Rom 5:18)
"For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
it's foundational to Christianity because the doctrine of original sin is foundational to Christianity, what I am saying is that no one was at the garden of eden to record documentary style what went on. The creators of genesis observed our fallen state and came up with an explanation , that being the fall from grace in the garden of eden. You see what I mean? That this is a story that describes the observation, not an observed story that explains the state. It's an important distinction.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 22:58:23 GMT
The Garden story is much more than just a story that tries to explain our observed fallen state after the fact. It is foundational to Christianity. Without A&E messing things up for all of mankind, there is no need for Christ. The Bible calls Jesus "the last Adam", because he is the perfect man who regains for mankind what the first Adam lost.
We don't need to rely on just the Genesis account to find original sin. Here are the scriptures I cited to Cody: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5)
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12)
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (Rom 5:18)
"For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
it's foundational to Christianity because the doctrine of original sin is foundational to Christianity, what I am saying is that no one was at the garden of eden to record documentary style what went on. The creators of genesis observed our fallen state and came up with an explanation , that being the fall from grace in the garden of eden. You see what I mean? That this is a story that describes the observation, not an observed story that explains the state. It's an important distinction. Then the story that the creators of genesis came up with weren't concerned that it portrays God as being unfair. And neither were the creators of the later books of the Bible.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 23:04:45 GMT
it's foundational to Christianity because the doctrine of original sin is foundational to Christianity, what I am saying is that no one was at the garden of eden to record documentary style what went on. The creators of genesis observed our fallen state and came up with an explanation , that being the fall from grace in the garden of eden. You see what I mean? That this is a story that describes the observation, not an observed story that explains the state. It's an important distinction. Then the story that the creators of genesis came up with weren't concerned that it portrays God as being unfair. And neither were the creators of the later books of the Bible. The creators of the bible were many, I have said previously many times that I interpret each book seperately and I believe that many books can be dismissed as written with the purpose of controlling men.
But lets look at this unfairness from a different angle.
The fact that we seem to be born into a world that is harsh and ultimately results in our death (at the time of the creation of the bible, likely a painful death) could certainly be seen to be be unfair, genesis explains that unfairness.
So the question is: is God unfair and so life is unfair, or is life unfair and so a portrayal of only that aspect of God will seem unfair. Bear in mind that the ultimate end goal of the bible is put up with this unfairness and God will reward you in paradise, something that focussing on this particular part of the bible conveniently ignores so that people can complain about how mean God is.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 23:06:26 GMT
Mainstream Christianity has long taught that mankind inherited sin from their first parents, Adam&Eve, so that no matter how a person lives their life they must still suffer the punishment their parents suffered. And they offer plenty from the Bible to back up that teaching: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5) "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12) "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (Rom 5:18) "For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
You said that A&E died physically because God cut off their access to the Tree of Life. God could have allowed their future unborn children access, but decided, as scripture teaches, that they would be born sinful before they had committed any disobedience. That is sentencing the unborn children for the bad choice of their parents. That cannot be reconciled with the value of fairness.
Don’t you see that if God had allowed A&E’s future unborn children access to the tree of life it would have meant an eternity of living in a fallen sinful state for the rest of humanity? It wouldn't have had to mean that at all. God didn't have to make sin an inherited trait. He CHOSE to make sin an inherited trait. Had he chosen otherwise, then future children could have enjoyed all that God intended, while any who WILLFULLY sin, like A&E, received the consequence they have earned.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 19, 2019 23:17:53 GMT
Then the story that the creators of genesis came up with weren't concerned that it portrays God as being unfair. And neither were the creators of the later books of the Bible. The creators of the bible were many, I have said previously many times that I interpret each book seperately and I believe that many books can be dismissed as written with the purpose of controlling men.
But lets look at this unfairness from a different angle.
The fact that we seem to be born into a world that is harsh and ultimately results in our death (at the time of the creation of the bible, likely a painful death) could certainly be seen to be be unfair, genesis explains that unfairness.
So the question is: is God unfair and so life is unfair, or is life unfair and so a portrayal of only that aspect of God will seem unfair. Bear in mind that the ultimate end goal of the bible is put up with this unfairness and God will reward you in paradise, something that focussing on this particular part of the bible conveniently ignores so that people can complain about how mean God is.
Since, as we agree, that original sin is foundational to Christianity, it has to be taken into account when being asked to believe in the promised rewards. (I wouldn't buy a house with a significant fault in its foundation.)
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