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Post by goz on Jun 19, 2019 23:19:25 GMT
Then the story that the creators of genesis came up with weren't concerned that it portrays God as being unfair. And neither were the creators of the later books of the Bible. The creators of the bible were many, I have said previously many times that I interpret each book seperately and I believe that many books can be dismissed as written with the purpose of controlling men.
But lets look at this unfairness from a different angle.
The fact that we seem to be born into a world that is harsh and ultimately results in our death (at the time of the creation of the bible, likely a painful death) could certainly be seen to be be unfair, genesis explains that unfairness.
So the question is: is God unfair and so life is unfair, or is life unfair and so a portrayal of only that aspect of God will seem unfair. Bear in mind that the ultimate end goal of the bible is put up with this unfairness and God will reward you in paradise, something that focussing on this particular part of the bible conveniently ignores so that people can complain about how mean God is.
Despite the story in the Bible of Adam and Eve in my world view as an atheist this is a given. The WHOLE Bible is an attempt by man to explain what is just the normal state of existence with its inherent unfairness. Evolution is unfair and it just 'happens' It is what it is. Because we are sentient we have more of an understanding of the future than other animals and again to me the Bible is merely an attempt to explain how humans procreate, live together and die. The main problem that I have with it and religion, is that it is manipulative and based on fear...mainly of suffering and death. So in my world view, man invented the Bible to manipulate society with a fallacy of life after death(your paradise) as a carrot on the end of a very long stick. [/quote]
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 23:23:25 GMT
The creators of the bible were many, I have said previously many times that I interpret each book seperately and I believe that many books can be dismissed as written with the purpose of controlling men.
But lets look at this unfairness from a different angle.
The fact that we seem to be born into a world that is harsh and ultimately results in our death (at the time of the creation of the bible, likely a painful death) could certainly be seen to be be unfair, genesis explains that unfairness.
So the question is: is God unfair and so life is unfair, or is life unfair and so a portrayal of only that aspect of God will seem unfair. Bear in mind that the ultimate end goal of the bible is put up with this unfairness and God will reward you in paradise, something that focussing on this particular part of the bible conveniently ignores so that people can complain about how mean God is.
Since, as we agree, that original sin is foundational to Christianity, it has to be taken into account when being asked to believe in the promised rewards. (I wouldn't buy a house with a significant fault in its foundation.)
I am not really sure what you are driving at. The observed fact is that we live in a world that is unfair and harsh, if you would not buy a house with those conditions (to use your analogy) then bad luck, this is the world you are in. Maybe you have a better way of explaining it, but if there is a creator God who made everything as we see it, then some kind of fall from grace story that imbues us all with a burden seems like a pretty reasonable explanation.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 23:28:42 GMT
The creators of the bible were many, I have said previously many times that I interpret each book seperately and I believe that many books can be dismissed as written with the purpose of controlling men.
But lets look at this unfairness from a different angle.
The fact that we seem to be born into a world that is harsh and ultimately results in our death (at the time of the creation of the bible, likely a painful death) could certainly be seen to be be unfair, genesis explains that unfairness.
So the question is: is God unfair and so life is unfair, or is life unfair and so a portrayal of only that aspect of God will seem unfair. Bear in mind that the ultimate end goal of the bible is put up with this unfairness and God will reward you in paradise, something that focussing on this particular part of the bible conveniently ignores so that people can complain about how mean God is.
Despite the story in the Bible of Adam and Eve in my world view as an atheist this is a given. The WHOLE Bible is an attempt by man to explain what is just the normal state of existence with its inherent unfairness. Evolution is unfair and it just 'happens' It is what it is. Because we are sentient we have more of an understanding of the future than other animals and again to me the Bible is merely an attempt to explain how humans procreate, live together and die. The main problem that I have with it and religion, is that it is manipulative and based on fear...mainly of suffering and death. So in my world view, man invented the Bible to manipulate society with a fallacy of life after death(your paradise) as a carrot on the end of a very long stick. [/quote][/div]
YOUR religion may state that, and in fact most Christians may believe that.
I do not follow Christianity to maybe be rewarded in the possible next life, I follow Christianity to improve my life here and now. And I do not fear God and I do not find him manipulative.
By the way the WHOLE bible is not an attempt to explain the normal state of existence, there are many other things in the bible. And just because you have a world view that you are comfortable with does not preclude others having a different world view that makes them comfortable. In my view many of the books of the bible were written to help us cope with life, not to manipulate us, not to mention that viewing the bible as the only source of information in Christianity is not only short sighted but dishonest.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 19, 2019 23:30:59 GMT
Original sin being foundational to Christianity is like cancer being foundational to healthcare.
I guess it plays it’s part...
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 23:34:07 GMT
Original sin being foundational to Christianity is like cancer being foundational to healthcare. I guess it plays it’s part... You don't think it is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity?
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Post by goz on Jun 19, 2019 23:42:43 GMT
Despite the story in the Bible of Adam and Eve in my world view as an atheist this is a given. The WHOLE Bible is an attempt by man to explain what is just the normal state of existence with its inherent unfairness. Evolution is unfair and it just 'happens' It is what it is. Because we are sentient we have more of an understanding of the future than other animals and again to me the Bible is merely an attempt to explain how humans procreate, live together and die. The main problem that I have with it and religion, is that it is manipulative and based on fear...mainly of suffering and death. So in my world view, man invented the Bible to manipulate society with a fallacy of life after death(your paradise) as a carrot on the end of a very long stick. [/div]
YOUR religion may state that, and in fact most Christians may believe that.
I do not follow Christianity to maybe be rewarded in the possible next life, I follow Christianity to improve my life here and now. And I do not fear God and I do not find him manipulative.
By the way the WHOLE bible is not an attempt to explain the normal state of existence, there are many other things in the bible. And just because you have a world view that you are comfortable with does not preclude others having a different world view that makes them comfortable. In my view many of the books of the bible were written to help us cope with life, not to manipulate us, not to mention that viewing the bible as the only source of information in Christianity is not only short sighted but dishonest.
[/quote] Defensive much? Thankyou for telling us all how 'speshul' your view of Christianity is. I am sure you find it superior to all others, as is your right. I don't have a religion, hence it is unlikely for me to be dishonest or short sighted about whether or not the Bible is the be all and end all for believers in Christianity. The fact is that we are, in this thread, discussing a story from the Bible and its impact on the lives of humans who are believers. As usual you are trying to qualify my posts to agree more with how you would like me to post, rather than what I actually post. As I said, you are being defensive, outraged and dismissive of my views. If you don't like what I write put me on ignore. I am not likely either to change them anytime soon, nor discontinue posting them on this Board.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 19, 2019 23:52:24 GMT
[/div]
YOUR religion may state that, and in fact most Christians may believe that.
I do not follow Christianity to maybe be rewarded in the possible next life, I follow Christianity to improve my life here and now. And I do not fear God and I do not find him manipulative.
By the way the WHOLE bible is not an attempt to explain the normal state of existence, there are many other things in the bible. And just because you have a world view that you are comfortable with does not preclude others having a different world view that makes them comfortable. In my view many of the books of the bible were written to help us cope with life, not to manipulate us, not to mention that viewing the bible as the only source of information in Christianity is not only short sighted but dishonest.
[/quote] Defensive much? Thankyou for telling us all how 'speshul' your view of Christianity is. I am sure you find it superior to all others, as is your right. I don't have a religion, hence it is unlikely for me to be dishonest or short sighted about whether or not the Bible is the be all and end all for believers in Christianity. The fact is that we are, in this thread, discussing a story from the Bible and its impact on the lives of humans who are believers. As usual you are trying to qualify my posts to agree more with how you would like me to post, rather than what I actually post. As I said, you are being defensive, outraged and dismissive of my views. If you don't like what I write put me on ignore. I am not likely either to change them anytime soon, nor discontinue posting them on this Board. [/quote][/div]
And this is why I started insulting you.
I did not put down your views, I said thinking the bible is the only book in Christianity is dishonest, which it is, and I will not discuss Christianity and limit my self to only what is contained in the bible. Having said that I was not directing that quote specifically at you, I was pointing out how people approach Christianity, as opposed to asking for clarification you decided to put me down.
You really are very short sighted and commited to being a victim, I responded to you directly responding to my post, a post that was not directed at you, because you felt hurt by my response you ask that I should put you on ignore. I dont care if you change or stop posting, but if you respond to me and you get a reply you dont like, maybe just walk away?
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Post by goz on Jun 20, 2019 0:00:38 GMT
[/div]
YOUR religion may state that, and in fact most Christians may believe that.
I do not follow Christianity to maybe be rewarded in the possible next life, I follow Christianity to improve my life here and now. And I do not fear God and I do not find him manipulative.
By the way the WHOLE bible is not an attempt to explain the normal state of existence, there are many other things in the bible. And just because you have a world view that you are comfortable with does not preclude others having a different world view that makes them comfortable. In my view many of the books of the bible were written to help us cope with life, not to manipulate us, not to mention that viewing the bible as the only source of information in Christianity is not only short sighted but dishonest.
[/quote] Defensive much? Thankyou for telling us all how 'speshul' your view of Christianity is. I am sure you find it superior to all others, as is your right. I don't have a religion, hence it is unlikely for me to be dishonest or short sighted about whether or not the Bible is the be all and end all for believers in Christianity. The fact is that we are, in this thread, discussing a story from the Bible and its impact on the lives of humans who are believers. As usual you are trying to qualify my posts to agree more with how you would like me to post, rather than what I actually post. As I said, you are being defensive, outraged and dismissive of my views. If you don't like what I write put me on ignore. I am not likely either to change them anytime soon, nor discontinue posting them on this Board. [/quote][/div]
And this is why I started insulting you.
I did not put down your views, I said thinking the bible is the only book in Christianity is dishonest, which it is, and I will not discuss Christianity and limit my self to only what is contained in the bible. Having said that I was not directing that quote specifically at you, I was pointing out how people approach Christianity, as opposed to asking for clarification you decided to put me down.
You really are very short sighted and commited to being a victim, I responded to you directly responding to my post, a post that was not directed at you, because you felt hurt by my response you ask that I should put you on ignore. I dont care if you change or stop posting, but if you respond to me and you get a reply you dont like, maybe just walk away?
[/quote] The quoting thingy is stuffed. My reply WTF? Defensive much? I call you on directly answering my post and you suddenly claim that you were not directng your rude and insulting comments to me butt everyone else in general? Maybe you should approach admin for a means of letting us all know when you address someone personally or in general.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 20, 2019 0:13:17 GMT
Original sin being foundational to Christianity is like cancer being foundational to healthcare. I guess it plays it’s part... You don't think it is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity? In a way, you could say original sin is foundational to Christianity as cancer is foundational to healthcare...that is, if the provider of healthcare was the one who decreed in the first place that cancer shall be a plague to all mankind, and then offered us a treatment for the condition he needlessly inflicted on us. (But that's not the case with healthcare and cancer.)
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Post by Isapop on Jun 20, 2019 0:25:26 GMT
Since, as we agree, that original sin is foundational to Christianity, it has to be taken into account when being asked to believe in the promised rewards. (I wouldn't buy a house with a significant fault in its foundation.)
I am not really sure what you are driving at. The observed fact is that we live in a world that is unfair and harsh, if you would not buy a house with those conditions (to use your analogy) then bad luck, this is the world you are in. Maybe you have a better way of explaining it, but if there is a creator God who made everything as we see it, then some kind of fall from grace story that imbues us all with a burden seems like a pretty reasonable explanation. I guess what I'm getting at is that the unfairness embedded into the foundation of Christianity belies its claims of a God of perfect love and justice. When God (in just the first inning) decrees that the fall of one man shall needlessly be the fall of all mankind, that cannot be reconciled with love and justice. And so, because this contradictory description of God makes no sense, it doesn't deserve belief.
(P.S. You know, as I think about it, God is something like Trump. He needlessly precipitates a crisis, and then wants us to swoon all over him when he concocts a way out of it for us.)
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Post by goz on Jun 20, 2019 0:37:13 GMT
I am not really sure what you are driving at. The observed fact is that we live in a world that is unfair and harsh, if you would not buy a house with those conditions (to use your analogy) then bad luck, this is the world you are in. Maybe you have a better way of explaining it, but if there is a creator God who made everything as we see it, then some kind of fall from grace story that imbues us all with a burden seems like a pretty reasonable explanation. I guess what I'm getting at is that the unfairness embedded into the foundation of Christianity belies its claims of a God of perfect love and justice. When God (in just the first inning) decrees that the fall of one man shall needlessly be the fall of all mankind, that cannot be reconciled with love and justice. And so, because this contradictory description of God makes no sense, it doesn't deserve belief.
(P.S. You know, as I think about it, God is something like Trump. He needlessly precipitates a crisis, and then wants us to swoon all over him when he concocts a way out of it for us.)
To me, the crux of the matter is whether the earth and its inhabitants evolved so it just is what it is, or whether ( as theists believe) their was intelligent design by an outside force ie The Christian God in this case under discussion. For Christians to actually believe this, it raises so many questions of intent of God that when discussing it, they tend to become defensive. It seems to point out the insufficiencies, inconsistencies and logical fallacies in the total story...
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Post by Isapop on Jun 20, 2019 0:53:12 GMT
I guess what I'm getting at is that the unfairness embedded into the foundation of Christianity belies its claims of a God of perfect love and justice. When God (in just the first inning) decrees that the fall of one man shall needlessly be the fall of all mankind, that cannot be reconciled with love and justice. And so, because this contradictory description of God makes no sense, it doesn't deserve belief.
(P.S. You know, as I think about it, God is something like Trump. He needlessly precipitates a crisis, and then wants us to swoon all over him when he concocts a way out of it for us.)
To me, the crux of the matter is whether the earth and its inhabitants evolved so it just is what it is, or whether ( as theists believe) their was intelligent design by an outside force ie The Christian God in this case under discussion. For Christians to actually believe this, it raises so many questions of intent of God that when discussing it, they tend to become defensive. It seems to point out the insufficiencies, inconsistencies and logical fallacies in the total story... The difficulties with the total story might be tolerable if another message of Christianity was: "Don't worry. God doesn't expect you to believe this message when it's being delivered by other sinful, flawed people. He won't hold it against you."
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Post by goz on Jun 20, 2019 1:07:53 GMT
To me, the crux of the matter is whether the earth and its inhabitants evolved so it just is what it is, or whether ( as theists believe) their was intelligent design by an outside force ie The Christian God in this case under discussion. For Christians to actually believe this, it raises so many questions of intent of God that when discussing it, they tend to become defensive. It seems to point out the insufficiencies, inconsistencies and logical fallacies in the total story... The difficulties with the total story might be tolerable if another message of Christianity was: "Don't worry. God doesn't expect you to believe this message when it's being delivered by other sinful, flawed people. He won't hold it against you." That indeed is the basic problem with a belief system and moral code made up by people.. It is the ultimate irony , that IF there was a God, he would have done a way better job!  
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 20, 2019 1:14:25 GMT
Original sin being foundational to Christianity is like cancer being foundational to healthcare. I guess it plays it’s part... You don't think it is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity? I'm not sure where it fits.
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Post by goz on Jun 20, 2019 1:26:02 GMT
You don't think it is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity? I'm not sure where it fits. Try Genesis....In the beginning God....etc
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 20, 2019 1:37:29 GMT
I'm not sure where it fits. Try Genesis....In the beginning God....etc What does that have to do with original sin being a foundation of Christianity?
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Post by Isapop on Jun 20, 2019 1:39:37 GMT
You don't think it is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity? I'm not sure where it fits. Coming from a Christian, that's like (in keeping with your earlier analogy) a med student saying he's not sure where cancer fits in with chemotherapy.
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Post by goz on Jun 20, 2019 1:47:48 GMT
Try Genesis....In the beginning God....etc What does that have to do with original sin being a foundation of Christianity? ...erm...the premise upon which Christianity is founded. Apparently God made up some arbitrary rules and said to poor old Adam and Eve to obey him and they (Eve in particular who is the original fall 'guy') stuffed up apparently causing everyone to die ever after Amen.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 20, 2019 2:00:07 GMT
I'm not sure where it fits. Coming from a Christian, that's like (in keeping with your earlier analogy) a med student saying he's not sure where cancer fits in with chemotherapy. That's a better connection. Sin would need a cure and Christianity would be it, but if salvation is not the foundation of true worship, then why would sin be?
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Post by goz on Jun 20, 2019 2:11:30 GMT
Coming from a Christian, that's like (in keeping with your earlier analogy) a med student saying he's not sure where cancer fits in with chemotherapy. That's a better connection. Sin would need a cure and Christianity would be it, but if salvation is not the foundation of true worship, then why would sin be? I thought you had read this stuff!!??!! You can't have salvation if you don't die! DUH!
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