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Post by goz on Jul 2, 2019 2:03:28 GMT
.. and please explain your opinion.
I am expecting this to go 'on party lines' however some new material in terms of the mixing of our colonial past and our religious past might be interesting.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 2, 2019 3:30:56 GMT
I think you probably know how I feel about missionaries. But I will elaborate: the one family of missionaries that I personally knew, after they returned from the mission field, was a case study in crazy. While the father, a psychologist, and the older son seemed sincere in their beliefs, the mother was as arrogant and disapproving as they get. She viewed the natives of the country they were sent to as some sort of sub-human animals. Never mind that these people had a rich culture that had flourished for centuries; if they weren't "washed in the Blood of the Lamb", they were basically stupid and lost. The two younger kids were just mimicking the adults' behavior, too young to question anything. Everyone at our church fawned over these people; it was nauseating, the almost reverential treatment they received. Even at that young age (I was 15 years old) I felt that imposing one's belief system on other cultures was, at the very least, dismissive of who and what that culture was. I thought every culture was unique and deserved respect. Who were we to decide that our culture and belief system were better than anyone else's? To digress just a bit, there is an excellent novel written by Barbara Kingsolver, "The Poisonwood Bible", that chronicles a missionary families' experience in the Congo. In this case, the father is the fanatic, and his family suffers for it. It is an interesting and complex read, but I think you would appreciate it. The author is an amazing writer. Anyway, my vote would be overall bad, though some missionaries truly did care about their intended flock. They just didn't understand who these people were and what they really needed.
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Post by general313 on Jul 2, 2019 15:08:44 GMT
In my experience there's no reason to put more trust in them than any other random person, and probably less so. My family were close friends of a missionary family while I was growing up, and the father was a despicable figure, abusing his family and native boys, embezzling missionary funds and defrauding natives of their artistic artifacts, attempting to substitute counterfeits and selling the originals (he got caught). The kids hated their father and have led pretty dysfunctional lives.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 15:15:23 GMT
They're bad, very very bad.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 2, 2019 15:29:22 GMT
What is it with a theophobiacs need for black and white answers?
There is nothing wrong with being a missionary.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 2, 2019 16:28:58 GMT
In my experience there's no reason to put more trust in them than any other random person, and probably less so. My family were close friends of a missionary family while I was growing up, and the father was a despicable figure, abusing his family and native boys, embezzling missionary funds and defrauding natives of their artistic artifacts, attempting to substitute counterfeits and selling the originals (he got caught). The kids hated their father and have led pretty dysfunctional lives. Wow. There are always the ones who abuse trust for personal profit. Those poor kids...
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 2, 2019 21:30:55 GMT
My grandparents were missionaries. At least one of them was most certainly not a good person.
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Post by goz on Jul 2, 2019 21:31:50 GMT
What is it with a theophobiacs need for black and white answers? There is nothing wrong with being a missionary. So there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a society of 'less civilisation ' and sophistication and indoctrinating them under duress or at least with the carrot of 'progress' and wealth or saving their eternal soul or whatever and destroying existing cultures, social structures and communities, in the arrogance of a belief in YOUR God ( whatever you are calling him this week) ?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 2, 2019 21:49:42 GMT
What is it with a theophobiacs need for black and white answers? There is nothing wrong with being a missionary. So there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a society of 'less civilisation ' and sophistication and indoctrinating them under duress or at least with the carrot of 'progress' and wealth or saving their eternal soul or whatever and destroying existing cultures, social structures and communities, in the arrogance of a belief in YOUR God ( whatever you are calling him this week) ? To play devil's advocate here though, if you sincerely believe all who don't accept your God will suffer eternal punishment, could it not be argued it is good to try and convert them?
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Post by goz on Jul 2, 2019 22:16:09 GMT
So there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a society of 'less civilisation ' and sophistication and indoctrinating them under duress or at least with the carrot of 'progress' and wealth or saving their eternal soul or whatever and destroying existing cultures, social structures and communities, in the arrogance of a belief in YOUR God ( whatever you are calling him this week) ? To play devil's advocate here though, if you sincerely believe all who don't accept your God will suffer eternal punishment, could it not be argued it is good to try and convert them? That has been their excuse. They don't seem to realise that they might be wrong and it is not their place to put their own religious views over others who are vulnerable. This is exactly the same argument we have been discussing on the three threads I made about the football player who vilifies homosexuals on social media and in his church and was dismissed from his contract. It is the collision of competing 'rights'. In the modern world we have a view of personal autonomy where as religious people still cling to what they see as 'God's law', which in their opinion overrides all other secular law. It is one of the biggest problems that we face in modern society IMHO especially if you add competing religions into the mix.
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Post by politicidal on Jul 2, 2019 23:00:13 GMT
What is it with a theophobiacs need for black and white answers? There is nothing wrong with being a missionary. Right?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 2:35:02 GMT
.. and please explain your opinion. I am expecting this to go 'on party lines' however some new material in terms of the mixing of our colonial past and our religious past might be interesting. Religion is irrational. Thus the spreading of religion is a bad thing to anybody who values truth.
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Post by goz on Jul 3, 2019 2:58:53 GMT
.. and please explain your opinion. I am expecting this to go 'on party lines' however some new material in terms of the mixing of our colonial past and our religious past might be interesting. Religion is irrational. Thus the spreading of religion is a bad thing to anybody who values truth Gee, you and @mslo79 should go head to head on the subject of truth. My mouth gapes and I shake my head when I read what that tosser says is truth
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Post by clusium on Jul 4, 2019 4:46:49 GMT
.. and please explain your opinion. I am expecting this to go 'on party lines' however some new material in terms of the mixing of our colonial past and our religious past might be interesting. Depends entirely upon the results.
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Post by goz on Jul 4, 2019 5:19:26 GMT
.. and please explain your opinion. I am expecting this to go 'on party lines' however some new material in terms of the mixing of our colonial past and our religious past might be interesting. Depends entirely upon the results. Do you seriously expect me to watch some Catholic missionary propaganda crapola? It is a fact of modern life that the clash of cultures is regrettable in terms of an evolutionary 'civilising' process, however it has been historically deleterious to native tribes to have their cultures obliterated by Christian missionaries.
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Post by progressiveelement on Jul 4, 2019 10:34:37 GMT
In theory, good. If they act merely as emissaries, ambassadors, guides to the faith. A sort of - recruitment guy hanging about in the jungles. An ad person for Christianity.
In practice, bad. Let's face it. They've done more than act as recruitment guides.
South Park had it nailed in Stavin' Marvin in Space.
"This episode begins with an alien landing on Earth to make first contact in the African desert. Not realizing it is facing lions, it is killed and devoured. Its ship is discovered by the people from Starvin' Marvin's village. The village is occupied by Christian missionaries led by Sister Hollis (voiced by Michael Ann Young), who attempt to convert the community by assuring them that their faith in Christianity will get them food, prompting Marvin to board the ship in search of a place free of missionaries to relocate his people. Meanwhile, two agents with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), having found out about this spaceship and wanting it for themselves, track down the boys and torture them by making scraping noises on a balloon until Cartman suddenly cannot take it anymore and tells them where Starvin' Marvin might have taken it. The two government agents then recruit Sally Struthers, whose character is depicted as looking similar to Jabba the Hutt. She is the leader of an Ethiopian food drive that is nothing more than a front for her to get all the food she wants. They offer her Chocolate Yum Yum bars in exchange.
Marvin and the boys team up, and by accidentally pressing a button, they fly via a wormhole to the home planet of the ship's former owner: the planet Marklar, whose inhabitants speak a language that is identical to English except for the fact that every noun is replaced with the word "Marklar". The benevolent Marklar agree to allow the Ethiopians to live on their planet. Back on Earth, the boys try to round up the Ethiopians, but the government agents seize the spaceship. The boys are able to take back the spaceship, letting Marvin load his people on while the boys distract the government agents, pretending to be Tom Brokaw. The agents are easily able to see through the disguise. Despite this, they are distracted long enough to load the ship, but Kenny is lost and seized by the government agents when the boys try to make a break for it.
The boys try to make it to Marklar, but they are confronted by the missionaries, who have built their own ship and are trying to force Christianity to Marklar. During this time, while broadcasting his show The 600 Club on the Christian Broadcasting Channel, Pat Robertson is shown attempting to raise funds for various absurd weapons and upgrades to aid the missionaries while in space. A space battle ensues, before the boys have to face the government agents. The agents have had Kenny frozen in carbonite and given to Sally Struthers so she can support them. Cartman convinces Sally that she has influenced the boys that they need to help people more. This touches Sally, so she lets the boys go and captures the missionary ship instead. Then, the wormhole is opened again, and all the ships are taken to Marklar.
When they arrive on Marklar, the aliens are very confused by the humans' trying to explain their motives. Kyle explains the situation in the aliens' own language, and the Marklar are touched. They banish the missionaries and let the Ethiopians stay. The boys promise to visit again (with Cartman sarcastically adding "Yeah, and maybe Jesse Jackson will be President"). Sally Struthers then takes the boys back to Earth."
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 4, 2019 13:34:13 GMT
South Park had it nailed in Stavin' Marvin in Space. Great episode!
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 4, 2019 16:05:52 GMT
In theory, good. If they act merely as emissaries, ambassadors, guides to the faith. A sort of - recruitment guy hanging about in the jungles. An ad person for Christianity. In practice, bad. Let's face it. They've done more than act as recruitment guides. South Park had it nailed in Stavin' Marvin in Space. "This episode begins with an alien landing on Earth to make first contact in the African desert. Not realizing it is facing lions, it is killed and devoured. Its ship is discovered by the people from Starvin' Marvin's village. The village is occupied by Christian missionaries led by Sister Hollis (voiced by Michael Ann Young), who attempt to convert the community by assuring them that their faith in Christianity will get them food, prompting Marvin to board the ship in search of a place free of missionaries to relocate his people. Meanwhile, two agents with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), having found out about this spaceship and wanting it for themselves, track down the boys and torture them by making scraping noises on a balloon until Cartman suddenly cannot take it anymore and tells them where Starvin' Marvin might have taken it. The two government agents then recruit Sally Struthers, whose character is depicted as looking similar to Jabba the Hutt. She is the leader of an Ethiopian food drive that is nothing more than a front for her to get all the food she wants. They offer her Chocolate Yum Yum bars in exchange. Marvin and the boys team up, and by accidentally pressing a button, they fly via a wormhole to the home planet of the ship's former owner: the planet Marklar, whose inhabitants speak a language that is identical to English except for the fact that every noun is replaced with the word "Marklar". The benevolent Marklar agree to allow the Ethiopians to live on their planet. Back on Earth, the boys try to round up the Ethiopians, but the government agents seize the spaceship. The boys are able to take back the spaceship, letting Marvin load his people on while the boys distract the government agents, pretending to be Tom Brokaw. The agents are easily able to see through the disguise. Despite this, they are distracted long enough to load the ship, but Kenny is lost and seized by the government agents when the boys try to make a break for it. The boys try to make it to Marklar, but they are confronted by the missionaries, who have built their own ship and are trying to force Christianity to Marklar. During this time, while broadcasting his show The 600 Club on the Christian Broadcasting Channel, Pat Robertson is shown attempting to raise funds for various absurd weapons and upgrades to aid the missionaries while in space. A space battle ensues, before the boys have to face the government agents. The agents have had Kenny frozen in carbonite and given to Sally Struthers so she can support them. Cartman convinces Sally that she has influenced the boys that they need to help people more. This touches Sally, so she lets the boys go and captures the missionary ship instead. Then, the wormhole is opened again, and all the ships are taken to Marklar. When they arrive on Marklar, the aliens are very confused by the humans' trying to explain their motives. Kyle explains the situation in the aliens' own language, and the Marklar are touched. They banish the missionaries and let the Ethiopians stay. The boys promise to visit again (with Cartman sarcastically adding "Yeah, and maybe Jesse Jackson will be President"). Sally Struthers then takes the boys back to Earth." LOL, I have never seen South Park, but just reading through that was great! And, it explains a lot...
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Jul 4, 2019 18:35:50 GMT
I think the Andaman islanders have the right idea.
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Post by clusium on Jul 4, 2019 19:23:43 GMT
Depends entirely upon the results. Do you seriously expect me to watch some Catholic missionary propaganda crapola? It is a fact of modern life that the clash of cultures is regrettable in terms of an evolutionary 'civilising' process, however it has been historically deleterious to native tribes to have their cultures obliterated by Christian missionaries. Actually, no I don't. That's why the video I just shared was not about Catholic missionaries. It was about BAPTIST MISSIONARIES.
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