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Post by thorshairspray on Apr 14, 2017 21:34:11 GMT
I'd just set the other guy on fire and win by default.
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Post by 🌵 on Apr 14, 2017 21:41:10 GMT
The question of "forcing beliefs on others" is tangential. Suppose the person who thought that horse B won tried to force you to adopt his belief. That wouldn't make it reasonable to believe that horse A won instead. You should suspend judgement. Notice that suspending judgement is one way to resist holding the belief that horse B won. Similarly, one way to resist theism is to argue that we should suspend judgement about the existence of god. Insofar as somebody who suspends does not believe in god, they would be classed as an atheist per a common usage of that term (e.g. "negative atheism" is defined as a person who simply doesn't believe in god; this of course covers suspension of judgement). Anyway, there are plenty of theists who do not force their beliefs on others. I have no idea what the "communism" comment is about. I've never even mentioned communism is on this board, let alone "carried on" about it. Thanks, You just perfectly illustrated how this analogy is not applicable to an argument of whether God exists or not. There are facts ( provable by evidence ) and fantasy in terms of belief. It is not tangential at all to see the effects of these differences. Either horse A won or horse B or as I said previously it was a dead heat. These are facts. It doesn't matter who accepts the facts as long as their decision doesn't impinge on the life of someone else. I don't understand how what you said there relates to my comment. However, the question of forcing beliefs on others is indeed tangential, for the reasons I explained in the post you quote. Since I don't understand your objection to that post, I suppose we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this, unless you want to try rephrasing your objection.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Apr 14, 2017 21:45:35 GMT
Thanks, You just perfectly illustrated how this analogy is not applicable to an argument of whether God exists or not. There are facts ( provable by evidence ) and fantasy in terms of belief. It is not tangential at all to see the effects of these differences. Either horse A won or horse B or as I said previously it was a dead heat. These are facts. It doesn't matter who accepts the facts as long as their decision doesn't impinge on the life of someone else. I don't understand how what you said there relates to my comment. However, the question of forcing beliefs on others is indeed tangential, for the reasons I explained in the post you quote. Since I don't understand your objection to that post, I suppose we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this, unless you want to try rephrasing your objection. It really should have been obvious you were speaking to someone who doesn't understand the word tangential. There is no telling what definition she made up in her head and then replied to you as though her definition was the correct one.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,672
Likes: 1,297
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 14, 2017 21:46:22 GMT
Not quite. 99.9% of the time I am quite happy to be rational, but where rationality would take me down a path I consider very distasteful or if acting without rationality would give me some great benefit, I would say so much the worse for rationality. Of course you could argue these are rational considerations in and of themselves I suppose. The problem with this is that if the rational response to disagreement (where your interlocutor is equally intelligent, equally well-informed, etc) is to suspend judgement, and you refuse to suspend judgement more than 0.01% of the time, then you're much more irrational than you present yourself as being. Let's say that in 1% of the debates you have with intelligent, well-informed interlocutors, you refuse to suspend judgement. Then, for somebody who accepts the conciliatory view, you're 10x more irrational than you claim. So I don't think it's good enough to respond to the conciliatory view by saying that you're happy to be irrational on occasions few and far between. Fair enough. So what would be your own response to the conciliatory view? In my view, there are persuasive arguments against the conciliatory view. The most important one for me is that it's self-undermining. Most people who defend it will try to provide arguments for it - certainly, if you want me to adopt a substantial epistemological principle like this, you'll need to provide a convincing argument. The horse race analogy might be reconstructed as an argument along these lines: (1) It is irrational to retain your belief that horse A won. (2) So, if there is no relevant difference between the horse race disagreement and weightier disagreements, then it is irrational to retain your beliefs in cases of weightier disagreements. (3) There is no relevant difference between the horse race disagreement and weightier disagreements. (C) So, it is irrational to retain your beliefs in cases of weightier disagreements. The problem is that for any argument you give for the conciliatory view, you can be sure that there will be intelligent, well-informed who disagree that the argument provides persuasive reason to accept the conciliatory view. So, if you accept the conciliatory view, you must suspend judgement about the force of your argument. So the conciliatory view is self-undermining: once you adopt it, you are forced to accept that none of the arguments for it are good enough to persuade those who hold a different view. Of course, it's possible that a defender of the conciliatory view will one day offer an argument that every intelligent, well-informed person will find persuasive. But I think that an induction on the history of philosophical debates suggests that this is extremely unlikely. Yeah it does seem a bit self-refuting.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Apr 14, 2017 21:54:50 GMT
Negotiation.
Agree to disagree.
Ask yourself 'Is this worth it?'
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Post by phludowin on Apr 15, 2017 8:30:41 GMT
The problem with this is that if the rational response to disagreement (where your interlocutor is equally intelligent, equally well-informed, etc) is to suspend judgement, and you refuse to suspend judgement more than 0.01% of the time, then you're much more irrational than you present yourself as being. Let's say that in 1% of the debates you have with intelligent, well-informed interlocutors, you refuse to suspend judgement. Then, for somebody who accepts the conciliatory view, you're 10x more irrational than you claim. So I don't think it's good enough to respond to the conciliatory view by saying that you're happy to be irrational on occasions few and far between. In my view, there are persuasive arguments against the conciliatory view. The most important one for me is that it's self-undermining. Most people who defend it will try to provide arguments for it - certainly, if you want me to adopt a substantial epistemological principle like this, you'll need to provide a convincing argument. The horse race analogy might be reconstructed as an argument along these lines: (1) It is irrational to retain your belief that horse A won. (2) So, if there is no relevant difference between the horse race disagreement and weightier disagreements, then it is irrational to retain your beliefs in cases of weightier disagreements. (3) There is no relevant difference between the horse race disagreement and weightier disagreements. (C) So, it is irrational to retain your beliefs in cases of weightier disagreements. The problem is that for any argument you give for the conciliatory view, you can be sure that there will be intelligent, well-informed who disagree that the argument provides persuasive reason to accept the conciliatory view. So, if you accept the conciliatory view, you must suspend judgement about the force of your argument. So the conciliatory view is self-undermining: once you adopt it, you are forced to accept that none of the arguments for it are good enough to persuade those who hold a different view. Of course, it's possible that a defender of the conciliatory view will one day offer an argument that every intelligent, well-informed person will find persuasive. But I think that an induction on the history of philosophical debates suggests that this is extremely unlikely. Yeah it does seem a bit self-refuting. After the term "conciliatory view" was introduced on this board by Amplified Cactus, without a definition, I googled it and came up with the following article: logos-and-episteme.acadiasi.ro/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/THE-CONCILIATORY-VIEW-AND-THE-CHARGE-OF-WHOLESALE-SKEPTICISM.pdfThe introduction goes like this (emphasis by me): Maybe this is an even worse flaw of the "conciliatory view": It is looking for a rational answer to a problem where people have emotional investments. Maybe the horse race example is a bad one, because there is one thing that will settle the disagreement: The decision of the race direction after the foto finish. But what about areas where there is no authority to settle disagreements? Not only religion or the existence of deities, but also matters of tastes and preferences? Let's say you have the same musical education as one of your peers, and you disagree on which music is better. Or you are as concerned about health and nutritional issues as one of your peers, and still disagree on which is the best food. Would the conciliatory view then require that you stop listening to your favourite music; or should listen to other types of music equally? Or modifying your diet, just to satisfy an irrational need for rationality when it comes to food choosing? I guess that in this case, it's rational to be irrational (or arational). The key is still: Agree to disagree; and accept that disagreements are not always rational.
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Post by 🌵 on Apr 15, 2017 13:48:05 GMT
After the term "conciliatory view" was introduced on this board by Amplified Cactus, without a definition To clarify then: I was using the phrase "the conciliatory view" to refer to the view that it is irrational to retain your belief when you encounter disagreement from people who are equally intelligent and equally well-informed. I assumed that was obvious from the context, but maybe not. In the philosophical literature, it is called "the conciliatory view" or sometimes just "conciliation"; it also goes by the name "the equal weight view". Maybe the horse race example is a bad one, because there is one thing that will settle the disagreement: The decision of the race direction after the foto finish. The point is that most people seem to think that before the results are announced, you should suspend judgement. Let's say you have the same musical education as one of your peers, and you disagree on which music is better. Or you are as concerned about health and nutritional issues as one of your peers, and still disagree on which is the best food. Would the conciliatory view then require that you stop listening to your favourite music; or should listen to other types of music equally? Or modifying your diet, just to satisfy an irrational need for rationality when it comes to food choosing? It would require you to suspend judgement about which music is better and which food is better. This only concerns beliefs. If you believe the proposition "Frank Zappa is better than Bob Dylan", and you encounter somebody who is equally intelligent and well-informed who believes the proposition "Bob Dylan is better than Frank Zappa", then you would have to suspend judgement about which is better. But it's perfectly fine for you to go on listening to Frank Zappa and not Bob Dylan. You would just have to accept that there is no reason to think that Frank Zappa is really, objectively better than Bob Dylan. Of course, for those of us who are antirealists about value, this example is confused. In my view, all such statements of the form "X is better than Y", "X is good", "X is bad", etc, are really just expressions of personal preferences; they do not describe objective facts about the world.
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Post by phludowin on Apr 15, 2017 14:31:07 GMT
To clarify then: I was using the phrase "the conciliatory view" to refer to the view that it is irrational to retain your belief when you encounter disagreement from people who are equally intelligent and equally well-informed. Then we agree. It would require you to suspend judgement about which music is better and which food is better. This only concerns beliefs. If you believe the proposition "Frank Zappa is better than Bob Dylan", and you encounter somebody who is equally intelligent and well-informed who believes the proposition "Bob Dylan is better than Frank Zappa", then you would have to suspend judgement about which is better. But it's perfectly fine for you to go on listening to Frank Zappa and not Bob Dylan. You would just have to accept that there is no reason to think that Frank Zappa is really, objectively better than Bob Dylan. The thing is: There are metrics by which you can measure the quality of music; regardless of taste. You can measure intrinsic properties, like harmonic or melodic invention; the use of counterpoint; whether the intrinsic structure matches the overall form and sound... Musicologists can write books over single pieces. You can even use other metrics; like how well a piece sells, or how many people still listen to some music 100 years after it was first published. The thing is: While these metrics might seem to give the value of music a rationally measured value: Using them is still a matter of emotion. If you use different metrics to evaluate music, then you might come to different conclusions on which music is "better". Even if the metrics are rationally founded. Which is another blow to the conciliatory view IMO. It is not possible to make purely rational judgments. You can use whatever evidence you use to support your belief; but the choice to pick this particular evidence is not a rational one. Of course, for those of us who are antirealists about value, this example is confused. In my view, all such statements of the form "X is better than Y", "X is good", "X is bad", etc, are really just expressions of personal preferences; they do not describe objective facts about the world. I agree.
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Post by progressiveelement on Apr 15, 2017 17:17:05 GMT
Fight to the death!
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