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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 26, 2019 8:15:06 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections.
Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent.
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Post by ck100 on Jul 26, 2019 10:19:20 GMT
I don't think he was a bad man at heart, but I agree that he had mental problems, grew up with a difficult development as a person, and lived with a non-normal environment. If he did bad things, I think it was due to mental problems and a non-normal environment as well as letting his emotions and feelings get the better of him. The only problem with Elizabeth Taylor and judgment has to do with her multiple marriages.  |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 26, 2019 16:53:25 GMT
I don't think he was a bad man at heart, but I agree that he had mental problems, grew up with a difficult development as a person, and lived with a non-normal environment. If he did bad things, I think it was due to mental problems and a non-normal environment as well as letting his emotions and feelings get the better of him. The only problem with Elizabeth Taylor and judgment has to do with her multiple marriages. Then I ask you the same... You would forgive him if he molested, several times, over years, YOUR children, because mental problems and a non-normal environment as well as letting his emotions and feelings got the better of him? You wouldn't consider him a "bad man at heart" if he molested YOUR kids?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 26, 2019 16:57:44 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections. Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent. I hope you're joking because it sounds a little bit like you're making light of this.
You would forgive him if he molested, several times, over years, YOUR children, because he was a sweetheart? You would consider him a "poor guy", "decent" if he molested YOUR kids?
He doesn't need bad feelings for him evened out. He needed mental health help while incarcerated.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 26, 2019 20:07:20 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections. Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent. I hope you're joking because it sounds a little bit like you're making light of this.
You would forgive him if he molested, several times, over years, YOUR children, because he was a sweetheart? You would consider him a "poor guy", "decent" if he molested YOUR kids?
He doesn't need bad feelings for him evened out. He needed mental health help while incarcerated.
The thing about Michael Jackson is that I think he saw himself as a child and unlike a true predator, I don't believe that he had sinister intentions whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite. And I guess to be specific, what do you classify as molestation? I doubt very seriously if he did anything past what children do - show me yours and I'll show you mine - and that would be the worst thing that he might have done. I don't think that he did anything more extreme than that. And what's more, true child molesters are more than happy to take away the innocence of the child. They are all about exploiting their innocence and this is exactly what Michael Jackson did not do. I very seriously doubt that any of the boys have any ill feeling towards MJ nor are they suffering today because of their association with the guy. Obviously I am not joking. You already knew that. I don't have kids. It's too big a responsibility. Forgiveness is key. Whether or not you are in a forgiving spirit is up to you, but hanging on to all the anger is horrible for the soul.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 26, 2019 20:10:07 GMT
I don't think he was a bad man at heart, but I agree that he had mental problems, grew up with a difficult development as a person, and lived with a non-normal environment. If he did bad things, I think it was due to mental problems and a non-normal environment as well as letting his emotions and feelings get the better of him. The only problem with Elizabeth Taylor and judgment has to do with her multiple marriages. Aaaaack! Yes, that was a bit of an issue wasn't it?  She was just so damn smart and funny and witty and compassionate and so utterly beautiful and womanly. I have nothing but love for ET.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 26, 2019 20:43:28 GMT
I hope you're joking because it sounds a little bit like you're making light of this.
You would forgive him if he molested, several times, over years, YOUR children, because he was a sweetheart? You would consider him a "poor guy", "decent" if he molested YOUR kids?
He doesn't need bad feelings for him evened out. He needed mental health help while incarcerated.
The thing about Michael Jackson is that I think he saw himself as a child and unlike a true predator, I don't believe that he had sinister intentions whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite. And I guess to be specific, what do you classify as molestation? I doubt very seriously if he did anything past what children do - show me yours and I'll show you mine - and that would be the worst thing that he might have done. I don't think that he did anything more extreme than that. And what's more, true child molesters are more than happy to take away the innocence of the child. They are all about exploiting their innocence and this is exactly what Michael Jackson did not do. I very seriously doubt that any of the boys have any ill feeling towards MJ nor are they suffering today because of their association with the guy. Obviously I am not joking. You already knew that. I don't have kids. It's too big a responsibility. Forgiveness is key. Whether or not you are in a forgiving spirit is up to you, but hanging on to all the anger is horrible for the soul. I'll start with your last point. Forgiveness IS key. I agree. But only AFTER the person has been punished (jail time) for their crimes. I do believe in redemption, but only after real actions have been taken... which are A) admission and acceptance of guilt, and B) atonement according to the law, which may come in the form of fines or jail time or both.
And yes, I do realize these are no longer applicable to MJ.
If you see the Documentary Leaving Neverland you will hear accusations (which I believe) that he did in fact do MUCH worse than just "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Much worse. And he kept on doing it, over many years, with many victims. It was very hard to watch. Very few documentaries or works of fiction made me feel that uncomfortable.
If these accusations are true, then yes of course he exploited their innocence, and yes they do feel horrible about what happened to them, to the point that it still affects them now. Just because he bought them toys and played with them and hid the misconduct under he guise of child like play doesn't mean they didn't grow up and realize what was happening.
I guess we'll never know 100% for sure exactly what happened. But come on... we all thought something was suspicious. All the little boys, all the pay offs, all the accusations... Where's there's smoke there's a fire. Well there's a little too much smoke there imo.
I wonder if you'd watch the doc and then tell me what you thought. I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
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Post by clusium on Jul 26, 2019 20:50:31 GMT
I hope you're joking because it sounds a little bit like you're making light of this.
You would forgive him if he molested, several times, over years, YOUR children, because he was a sweetheart? You would consider him a "poor guy", "decent" if he molested YOUR kids?
He doesn't need bad feelings for him evened out. He needed mental health help while incarcerated.
The thing about Michael Jackson is that I think he saw himself as a child and unlike a true predator, I don't believe that he had sinister intentions whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite. And I guess to be specific, what do you classify as molestation? I doubt very seriously if he did anything past what children do - show me yours and I'll show you mine - and that would be the worst thing that he might have done. I don't think that he did anything more extreme than that. And what's more, true child molesters are more than happy to take away the innocence of the child. They are all about exploiting their innocence and this is exactly what Michael Jackson did not do. I very seriously doubt that any of the boys have any ill feeling towards MJ nor are they suffering today because of their association with the guy. Obviously I am not joking. You already knew that. I don't have kids. It's too big a responsibility. Forgiveness is key. Whether or not you are in a forgiving spirit is up to you, but hanging on to all the anger is horrible for the soul. Actually, Dirty_Pillows, childishness in adult is a very common characteristic of pedophiles & child molesters.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 26, 2019 21:33:43 GMT
The thing about Michael Jackson is that I think he saw himself as a child and unlike a true predator, I don't believe that he had sinister intentions whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite. And I guess to be specific, what do you classify as molestation? I doubt very seriously if he did anything past what children do - show me yours and I'll show you mine - and that would be the worst thing that he might have done. I don't think that he did anything more extreme than that. And what's more, true child molesters are more than happy to take away the innocence of the child. They are all about exploiting their innocence and this is exactly what Michael Jackson did not do. I very seriously doubt that any of the boys have any ill feeling towards MJ nor are they suffering today because of their association with the guy. Obviously I am not joking. You already knew that. I don't have kids. It's too big a responsibility. Forgiveness is key. Whether or not you are in a forgiving spirit is up to you, but hanging on to all the anger is horrible for the soul. I'll start with your last point. Forgiveness IS key. I agree. But only AFTER the person has been punished (jail time) for their crimes. I do believe in redemption, but only after real actions have been taken... which are A) admission and acceptance of guilt, and B) atonement according to the law, which may come in the form of fines or jail time or both.
And yes, I do realize these are no longer applicable to MJ.
If you see the Documentary Leaving Neverland you will hear accusations (which I believe) that he did in fact do MUCH worse than just "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Much worse. And he kept on doing it, over many years, with many victims. It was very hard to watch. Very few documentaries or works of fiction made me feel that uncomfortable.
If these accusations are true, then yes of course he exploited their innocence, and yes they do feel horrible about what happened to them, to the point that it still affects them now. Just because he bought them toys and played with them and hid the misconduct under he guise of child like play doesn't mean they didn't grow up and realize what was happening.
I guess we'll never know 100% for sure exactly what happened. But come on... we all thought something was suspicious. All the little boys, all the pay offs, all the accusations... Where's there's smoke there's a fire. Well there's a little too much smoke there imo.
I wonder if you'd watch the doc and then tell me what you thought. I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
The capacity to forgive is not contingent upon the need for the revenge/need for justice. It comes from a spiritual place, from deep within. How many Jews forgave Hitler? Do you know how deep this goes? Maybe I will watch the documentary. I will say that I agree with you that none of us will ever know for sure what really happened. What is comes down to now is that you believe the accusations and I do not. Simple as that, really. And as far as everybody thinking something was suspect... Well, isn't that just the way human nature goes. I tell you what, lenny (is that okay if I call you that? don't want to disrespect you on that) - if you read Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery", then I will watch "Leaving Neverland". Fair deal? Deeply scary and disturbing tale...Shirley Jackson was a brilliantly intuitive mind and she knew what it was all about, namely the danger of ominous group think and society's need for scapegoats, which brings out the very worst in human nature. This need to judge and to hide in the crowd and not be accountable for one's own POV. Most people are just blind blind blind. It is beyond maddening. If you are the type of person who thinks for himself and maybe has been burdened with some anti-group sentiments along the way, then it's just a dreadful prospect. And I think - unlike you - that Michael Jackson was unfairly condemned. It is my deepest feeling that Michael Jackson did nothing truly bad. And it's all a fine line, really... a judgment call, if you will... The bottom line and what is so much more relevant than "facts", I think, is that people see what they want to see. And most people gravitate towards the crowd. Fortunately or unfortunately, I have never done this. But I take great comfort in the knowledge that one of my greatest heroes, Shirley Jackson, could not do it, either.
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 27, 2019 11:05:32 GMT
It might have helped if there was a responsible adult living with him who could have explained why it was not a good idea for him to do that sort of thing.
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Post by clusium on Jul 27, 2019 14:55:56 GMT
It might have helped if there was a responsible adult living with him who could have explained why it was not a good idea for him to do that sort of thing. Agreed, but, I have a strong feeling he still would have done so. Remember the 'Marin Bashir ' interview, when he (Bashir) addressed the issues of MJ sleeping with kids? Bashar asked MJ if he understood peoples' concerns about him (Jackson) sleeping with kids, & he replied that he did. Bashir asked him why, & Jackson replied, "Because they are ignorant." I think that MJ (& other pedophiles, just like him)truly believed that what he was doing was caring, & not harmful in any kind of way. He was wrong, but, he just did not realize that he was wrong.
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Post by rogerthat on Jul 27, 2019 17:32:41 GMT
I think he was a predator who used his fame and money to not only get involved with some children but to pay off some of the families.
Just my opinion.
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Post by clusium on Jul 27, 2019 17:43:10 GMT
I think he was a predator who used his fame and money to not only get involved with some children but to pay off some of the families. Just my opinion. Yep. That is exactly what he did.
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Post by Lebowskidoo 🎄😷🎄 on Jul 27, 2019 17:49:03 GMT
It might have helped if there was a responsible adult living with him who could have explained why it was not a good idea for him to do that sort of thing. MJ could not be told anything he didn't want to hear. He had all the money and fame, he could control people with it to get his way. By people, I mean his family and his employees. His doctor stated this after he died, MJ would not listen to anyone trying to steer him away from harm . When you are that rich and famous and feel like you don't have to answer to anyone, it must create a unique and unusual environment to live in. His thinking must have been so much different from the regular folks of the world. Only a select few people on the planet know how that is. I agree with the OP's opinion, MJ always seemed innocent to me, his love for kids seemed genuine to me too. People would be more willing to accept that he was a pedophile than a childlike man. I hope I'm right, he was a huge idol during my childhood. No one really knows for sure, maybe we never will. People are bound to pick sides. At first I assumed the two accusers were scammers, recently some doubt has crept in, so I'm middle of the road, since I don't know for certain anything.
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Post by clusium on Jul 27, 2019 18:02:01 GMT
It might have helped if there was a responsible adult living with him who could have explained why it was not a good idea for him to do that sort of thing. MJ could not be told anything he didn't want to hear. He had all the money and fame, he could control people with it to get his way. By people, I mean his family and his employees. His doctor stated this after he died, MJ would not listen to anyone trying to steer him away from harm . When you are that rich and famous and feel like you don't have to answer to anyone, it must create a unique and unusual environment to live in. His thinking must have been so much different from the regular folks of the world. Only a select few people on the planet know how that is. I agree with the OP's opinion, MJ always seemed innocent to me, his love for kids seemed genuine to me too. People would be more willing to accept that he was a pedophile than a childlike man. I hope I'm right, he was a huge idol during my childhood. No one really knows for sure, maybe we never will. People are bound to pick sides. At first I assumed the two accusers were scammers, recently some doubt has crept in, so I'm middle of the road, since I don't know for certain anything. The thing is, it is very common among pedophiles, to be childlike men. That is why they are sexually and/or romantically attracted to children. Because, they themselves are children living adult bodies.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 27, 2019 18:41:46 GMT
The thing about Michael Jackson is that I think he saw himself as a child and unlike a true predator, I don't believe that he had sinister intentions whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite. And I guess to be specific, what do you classify as molestation? I doubt very seriously if he did anything past what children do - show me yours and I'll show you mine - and that would be the worst thing that he might have done. I don't think that he did anything more extreme than that. And what's more, true child molesters are more than happy to take away the innocence of the child. They are all about exploiting their innocence and this is exactly what Michael Jackson did not do. I very seriously doubt that any of the boys have any ill feeling towards MJ nor are they suffering today because of their association with the guy. Obviously I am not joking. You already knew that. I don't have kids. It's too big a responsibility. Forgiveness is key. Whether or not you are in a forgiving spirit is up to you, but hanging on to all the anger is horrible for the soul. I'll start with your last point. Forgiveness IS key. I agree. But only AFTER the person has been punished (jail time) for their crimes. I do believe in redemption, but only after real actions have been taken... which are A) admission and acceptance of guilt, and B) atonement according to the law, which may come in the form of fines or jail time or both.
And yes, I do realize these are no longer applicable to MJ.
If you see the Documentary Leaving Neverland you will hear accusations (which I believe) that he did in fact do MUCH worse than just "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Much worse. And he kept on doing it, over many years, with many victims. It was very hard to watch. Very few documentaries or works of fiction made me feel that uncomfortable.
If these accusations are true, then yes of course he exploited their innocence, and yes they do feel horrible about what happened to them, to the point that it still affects them now. Just because he bought them toys and played with them and hid the misconduct under he guise of child like play doesn't mean they didn't grow up and realize what was happening.
I guess we'll never know 100% for sure exactly what happened. But come on... we all thought something was suspicious. All the little boys, all the pay offs, all the accusations... Where's there's smoke there's a fire. Well there's a little too much smoke there imo.
I wonder if you'd watch the doc and then tell me what you thought. I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
If you're taking that 4 hour long piece of audible child porn as fact, you lose by default. Answer this, who's Victor Gutierrez? Yes it IS relevant to the conversation. What book did he write?
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 27, 2019 18:43:21 GMT
Actually, Dirty_Pillows, childishness in adult is a very common characteristic of pedophiles & child molesters.
Then I guess all men must be pedophiles since the saying is girls turn into women and boys just turn into bigger boys.
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Post by Zos on Jul 27, 2019 19:17:59 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections. Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent. He groomed and shagged kids. You want to feel sorry for an insanely rich pederast, knock yourself out.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 27, 2019 19:32:05 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections. Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent. He groomed and shagged kids. You want to feel sorry for an insanely rich pederast, knock yourself out. Would you care to prove that? So far nobody has, they just go with 'the people suing him for a billion dollars say it, so it must be true, the media says it, so it must be true, he looks weird, so it must be true'.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 27, 2019 19:32:08 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections. Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent. He groomed and shagged kids. You want to feel sorry for an insanely rich pederast, knock yourself out. I don't have to knock myself out. Compassion comes easily to me.
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She was just so damn smart and funny and witty and compassionate and so utterly beautiful and womanly. I have nothing but love for ET.
