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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 27, 2019 19:33:54 GMT
He groomed and shagged kids. You want to feel sorry for an insanely rich pederast, knock yourself out. Would you care to prove that? So far nobody has, they just go with 'the people suing him for a billion dollars say it, so it must be true, the media says it, so it must be true, he looks weird, so it must be true'.
That's a very big part of it. People cannot prove it. But people are so knee jerk ready to think the worst of somebody and to go along with what the crowd purports to think. They believe what they are told to believe and then they judge. And then it's judge judge judge judge...... It makes me sick to my stomach and weak on my feet.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 27, 2019 23:40:24 GMT
Would you care to prove that? So far nobody has, they just go with 'the people suing him for a billion dollars say it, so it must be true, the media says it, so it must be true, he looks weird, so it must be true'.
That's a very big part of it. People cannot prove it. But people are so knee jerk ready to think the worst of somebody and to go along with what the crowd purports to think. They believe what they are told to believe and then they judge. And then it's judge judge judge judge...... It makes me sick to my stomach and weak on my feet.
This is how people got lynched for witchcraft in Salem. "A bunch of teen girls say it, so it must be true!" And if you research those cases, they actually said the exact same thing the boys say now, 'sexual molestation'. What a coincidence.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 27, 2019 23:49:06 GMT
That's a very big part of it. People cannot prove it. But people are so knee jerk ready to think the worst of somebody and to go along with what the crowd purports to think. They believe what they are told to believe and then they judge. And then it's judge judge judge judge...... It makes me sick to my stomach and weak on my feet.
This is how people got lynched for witchcraft in Salem. "A bunch of teen girls say it, so it must be true!" And if you research those cases, they actually said the exact same thing the boys say now, 'sexual molestation'. What a coincidence.
Oh, God! The Salem Witch Trials! One of the most terrifying historical accounts that I know of. Just shuddering awful... Yes, group mob mentality has the potential to be as frightening as being eaten by a Great White. What makes the Salem Witch Trials even more disturbing is that, and please tell me if I am wrong, most of the victims were middle aged women who had never been married. So, they stood out as different and maybe a little scary and they paid a terrible price for it.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 3:08:56 GMT
This is how people got lynched for witchcraft in Salem. "A bunch of teen girls say it, so it must be true!" And if you research those cases, they actually said the exact same thing the boys say now, 'sexual molestation'. What a coincidence.
Oh, God! The Salem Witch Trials! One of the most terrifying historical accounts that I know of. Just shuddering awful... Yes, group mob mentality has the potential to be as frightening as being eaten by a Great White. What makes the Salem Witch Trials even more disturbing is that, and please tell me if I am wrong, most of the victims were middle aged women who had never been married. So, they stood out as different and maybe a little scary and they paid a terrible price for it.
I never paid much attention but that would make sense since you never heard of anyone coming to their defense, no husband, no children, etc. And it probably WAS the older unattached 'homely' looking women most commonly accused of being witches since they weren't like everyone else.
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Post by Zos on Jul 28, 2019 10:54:47 GMT
He groomed and shagged kids. You want to feel sorry for an insanely rich pederast, knock yourself out. I don't have to knock myself out. Compassion comes easily to me. Then save it for the children he violated and who's innocence he stole.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 12:07:38 GMT
I don't have to knock myself out. Compassion comes easily to me. Then save it for the children he violated and who's innocence he stole. Again, where's the proof? The only ones who ever accused him either themselves 30 years after the so called 'fact', or their parents at the time, wanted money out of him. That's proof? That's credibility? That somehow DOESN'T suggest they're lying for a big payday? And somehow, ALL of them have completely different stories than each other, that's proof?
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 28, 2019 12:16:33 GMT
The thing about Michael Jackson is that I think he saw himself as a child and unlike a true predator, I don't believe that he had sinister intentions whatsoever. In fact, quite the opposite. And I guess to be specific, what do you classify as molestation? I doubt very seriously if he did anything past what children do - show me yours and I'll show you mine - and that would be the worst thing that he might have done. I don't think that he did anything more extreme than that. And what's more, true child molesters are more than happy to take away the innocence of the child. They are all about exploiting their innocence and this is exactly what Michael Jackson did not do. I very seriously doubt that any of the boys have any ill feeling towards MJ nor are they suffering today because of their association with the guy. Obviously I am not joking. You already knew that. I don't have kids. It's too big a responsibility. Forgiveness is key. Whether or not you are in a forgiving spirit is up to you, but hanging on to all the anger is horrible for the soul. I'll start with your last point. Forgiveness IS key. I agree. But only AFTER the person has been punished (jail time) for their crimes. I do believe in redemption, but only after real actions have been taken... which are A) admission and acceptance of guilt, and B) atonement according to the law, which may come in the form of fines or jail time or both.
And yes, I do realize these are no longer applicable to MJ.
If you see the Documentary Leaving Neverland you will hear accusations (which I believe) that he did in fact do MUCH worse than just "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Much worse. And he kept on doing it, over many years, with many victims. It was very hard to watch. Very few documentaries or works of fiction made me feel that uncomfortable.
If these accusations are true, then yes of course he exploited their innocence, and yes they do feel horrible about what happened to them, to the point that it still affects them now. Just because he bought them toys and played with them and hid the misconduct under he guise of child like play doesn't mean they didn't grow up and realize what was happening.
I guess we'll never know 100% for sure exactly what happened. But come on... we all thought something was suspicious. All the little boys, all the pay offs, all the accusations... Where's there's smoke there's a fire. Well there's a little too much smoke there imo.
I wonder if you'd watch the doc and then tell me what you thought. I'd like to hear your opinions about it. How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
MJ's scenario does not even operate on any normal or elemental spectrum as there are so many layers involved to his own psyche\state of being, controlled and abusive upbringing, superstar status, exploitation for fame and how the parents of these boys exploited their own children for their own personal gain. I really don't think as much damage has been done to these boys from Jacko's actions, than what their own parents did to them and the agendas behind it.
I haven't seen the Finding Neverland doco and don't care to, but from what I have heard, what I feel has come out of this for these men now, is the understanding that now they have their own children, they would never in a million years allow such a thing to happen to them.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 28, 2019 12:30:00 GMT
I think he was a predator who used his fame and money to not only get involved with some children but to pay off some of the families. Just my opinion. I do feel that by Jacko paying of the families is admission of some sort of guilt. Then again, it was an easier way around the situation because he could afford too.
Jacko was a disturbed individual and he was protected by Elizabeth Taylor and Priscilla Presley. If he did sexually molest these boys and they knew of this, it does cast a dubious standing over their own characters. Then again, like dirtypillows has commented, Jacko also operated from a childlike mind anyway and while he was legally and technically an adult, he wasn't relating to adults in the way most do.
Because of his psychological make-up and own disturbed mind—look at all the surgeries he had as well to change himself—he really needed the kind of professional help that appears to have been denied him or was not deemed necessary. He got privilege also, due to wealth and fame. Nice double standards we got our corrupt and duplicitous society.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 13:37:19 GMT
I think he was a predator who used his fame and money to not only get involved with some children but to pay off some of the families. Just my opinion. I do feel that by Jacko paying of the families is admission of some sort of guilt. Then again, it was an easier way around the situation because he could afford too.
Jacko was a disturbed individual and he was protected by Elizabeth Taylor and Priscilla Presley. If he did sexually molest these boys and they knew of this, it does cast a dubious standing over their own characters. Then again, like dirtypillows has commented, Jacko also operated from a childlike mind anyway and while he was legally and technically an adult, he wasn't relating to adults in the way most do.
Because of his psychological make-up and own disturbed mind—look at all the surgeries he had as well to change himself—he really needed the kind of professional help that appears to have been denied him or was not deemed necessary. He got privilege also, due to wealth and fame. Nice double standards we got our corrupt and duplicitous society.
It's amazing how many people use their prejudice of Michael's appearance to determine his guilt as a pedophile. Funny they never say the same thing about the women who get their face lifted till it looks like a Planet of the Apes Mask and triple E boobs, clearly they're all mentally unstable and should be kept away from innocent children, they need to be locked in psyche wards.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 28, 2019 13:59:19 GMT
I do feel that by Jacko paying of the families is admission of some sort of guilt. Then again, it was an easier way around the situation because he could afford too.
Jacko was a disturbed individual and he was protected by Elizabeth Taylor and Priscilla Presley. If he did sexually molest these boys and they knew of this, it does cast a dubious standing over their own characters. Then again, like dirtypillows has commented, Jacko also operated from a childlike mind anyway and while he was legally and technically an adult, he wasn't relating to adults in the way most do.
Because of his psychological make-up and own disturbed mind—look at all the surgeries he had as well to change himself—he really needed the kind of professional help that appears to have been denied him or was not deemed necessary. He got privilege also, due to wealth and fame. Nice double standards we got our corrupt and duplicitous society.
It's amazing how many people use their prejudice of Michael's appearance to determine his guilt as a pedophile. Funny they never say the same thing about the women who get their face lifted till it looks like a Planet of the Apes Mask and triple E boobs, clearly they're all mentally unstable and should be kept away from innocent children, they need to be locked in psyche wards.
His need to change his looks and the extreme lengths he went to does speak volumes about what his psych was like. He was a troubled narcissist and was exploited by the surgeons too.
There is nothing "normal per se" about the whole Jacko debacle, but now he has been long dead and has paid the ultimate price, I do feel that it is unfair to his surviving family members to carry on exploiting and flogging a dead horse—which is how I view this FN doco and won't watch it for that reason—because any victim mentalities and phony sympathies are just being played upon and does reveal their own transparencies and insecurities.
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Post by Zos on Jul 28, 2019 15:45:47 GMT
Then save it for the children he violated and who's innocence he stole. Again, where's the proof? The only ones who ever accused him either themselves 30 years after the so called 'fact', or their parents at the time, wanted money out of him. That's proof? That's credibility? That somehow DOESN'T suggest they're lying for a big payday? And somehow, ALL of them have completely different stories than each other, that's proof? I have no time for the victims families who were also complicit in the quest for fame and money and pretty much rented their kids out to the nonce. Have never met anyone who's not a bit of a looney fan boy/girl who doubts his guilt. Odd that.
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Post by lordquesterjones on Jul 28, 2019 15:53:31 GMT
There's millions of starving children and there was only one Michael Jackson.
Couldn't we have let him bum just one child!?
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 16:03:22 GMT
Again, where's the proof? The only ones who ever accused him either themselves 30 years after the so called 'fact', or their parents at the time, wanted money out of him. That's proof? That's credibility? That somehow DOESN'T suggest they're lying for a big payday? And somehow, ALL of them have completely different stories than each other, that's proof? I have no time for the victims families who were also complicit in the quest for fame and money and pretty much rented their kids out to the nonce. Have never met anyone who's not a bit of a looney fan boy/girl who doubts his guilt. Odd that.
But you base your belief of his guilt on the WORD of 'families who rented their kids out'. Why would you trust ANYTHING they had to say?
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Post by amyghost on Jul 28, 2019 16:13:12 GMT
It might have helped if there was a responsible adult living with him who could have explained why it was not a good idea for him to do that sort of thing. I agree with the OP's opinion, MJ always seemed innocent to me, his love for kids seemed genuine to me too. People would be more willing to accept that he was a pedophile than a childlike man. I hope I'm right, he was a huge idol during my childhood. No one really knows for sure, maybe we never will. People are bound to pick sides. At first I assumed the two accusers were scammers, recently some doubt has crept in, so I'm middle of the road, since I don't know for certain anything. I think this point adds an important factor to the whole equation of Jackson's personality. The magnitude of fame and all that accompanies that fame, of the sort people in Jackson's stratosphere breathe along with the air they take in, places them in an environment so radically different from anything those of us outside of it know that I really believe it can't help but seriously distort the personalities of those experiencing it. They live in a sealed bubble totally cut off from the mundane world in its' entirety--the ways of the world outside of that bubble are, or become meaningless to the bubble's inhabitants (Donald Trump is an excellent example of this, and also a good example of why people who have spent their lives dwelling in such an environment are a not a good choice for real-world leadership roles). If you couple this with a pre-existing personality disorder--or even if you accept the theory that the environment produced the disorder--it's not that surprising that you end up with an individual who has only the haziest notions of what constitutes proper boundaries or 'normal' conduct among the hoi polloi who live outside of that exalted sphere, and probably no real comprehension at all of why they should be required to abide by those standards.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 16:17:40 GMT
MJ could not be told anything he didn't want to hear. He had all the money and fame, he could control people with it to get his way. By people, I mean his family and his employees. His doctor stated this after he died, MJ would not listen to anyone trying to steer him away from harm . When you are that rich and famous and feel like you don't have to answer to anyone, it must create a unique and unusual environment to live in. His thinking must have been so much different from the regular folks of the world. Only a select few people on the planet know how that is.I agree with the OP's opinion, MJ always seemed innocent to me, his love for kids seemed genuine to me too. People would be more willing to accept that he was a pedophile than a childlike man. I hope I'm right, he was a huge idol during my childhood. No one really knows for sure, maybe we never will. People are bound to pick sides. At first I assumed the two accusers were scammers, recently some doubt has crept in, so I'm middle of the road, since I don't know for certain anything. I think this point adds an important factor to the whole equation of Jackson's personality. The magnitude of fame and all that accompanies that fame, of the sort people in Jackson's stratosphere breathe along with the air they take in, places them in an environment so radically different from anything those of us outside of it know that I really believe it can't help but seriously distort the personalities of those experiencing it. They live in a sealed bubble totally cut off from the mundane world in its' entirety--the ways of the world outside of that bubble are, or become meaningless to the bubble's inhabitants (Donald Trump is an excellent example of this, and also a good example of why people who have spent their lives dwelling in such an environment are a not a good choice for real-world leadership roles). If you couple this with a pre-existing personality disorder--or even if you accept the theory that the environment produced the disorder--it's not that surprising that you end up with an individual who has only the haziest notions of what constitutes proper boundaries or 'normal' conduct among the hoi polloi who live outside of that exalted sphere, and probably no real comprehension at all of why they should be required to abide by those standards.
Gee it couldn't be because growing up he knew 7 kids sleeping in 1 room as normal since they had a family of 11 crammed into a 2 bedroom home, could it? And if there wasn't anything wrong with that, why would he think something's wrong with inviting families out to his home, and allowing kids (and in some cases parents) whose parents gave the okay, to stay in his duplex apartment sized bedroom? 'It just is' isn't good enough, there has to be an actual reason.
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 28, 2019 16:18:50 GMT
This is how people got lynched for witchcraft in Salem. "A bunch of teen girls say it, so it must be true!" And if you research those cases, they actually said the exact same thing the boys say now, 'sexual molestation'. What a coincidence.
Oh, God! The Salem Witch Trials! One of the most terrifying historical accounts that I know of. Just shuddering awful... Yes, group mob mentality has the potential to be as frightening as being eaten by a Great White. What makes the Salem Witch Trials even more disturbing is that, and please tell me if I am wrong, most of the victims were middle aged women who had never been married. So, they stood out as different and maybe a little scary and they paid a terrible price for it. Unfortunately the Salem women couldn't afford the lifestyle Jackson had and couldn't promote themselves as something special the way he did. Jackson's actions had as much (if not more) to do with how he was and is still perceived. I avoid saying he abused those boys but someone should have been there to control his behaviour.
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Post by amyghost on Jul 28, 2019 16:23:18 GMT
I think this point adds an important factor to the whole equation of Jackson's personality. The magnitude of fame and all that accompanies that fame, of the sort people in Jackson's stratosphere breathe along with the air they take in, places them in an environment so radically different from anything those of us outside of it know that I really believe it can't help but seriously distort the personalities of those experiencing it. They live in a sealed bubble totally cut off from the mundane world in its' entirety--the ways of the world outside of that bubble are, or become meaningless to the bubble's inhabitants (Donald Trump is an excellent example of this, and also a good example of why people who have spent their lives dwelling in such an environment are a not a good choice for real-world leadership roles). If you couple this with a pre-existing personality disorder--or even if you accept the theory that the environment produced the disorder--it's not that surprising that you end up with an individual who has only the haziest notions of what constitutes proper boundaries or 'normal' conduct among the hoi polloi who live outside of that exalted sphere, and probably no real comprehension at all of why they should be required to abide by those standards.
Gee it couldn't be because growing up he knew 7 kids sleeping in 1 room as normal since they had a family of 11 crammed into a 2 bedroom home, could it? And if there wasn't anything wrong with that, why would he think something's wrong with inviting families out to his home, and allowing kids (and in some cases parents) whose parents gave the okay, to stay in his duplex apartment sized bedroom? 'It just is' isn't good enough, there has to be an actual reason.
I haven't attempted to say that those events had nothing to do with the formation of his personality and how they might or might not have contributed to pedophile behaviors, so I'm not getting your point here. At no place in my post did I state that 'it just is'--I'm equally uncertain of what you mean by that--and I certainly haven't said there weren't 'reasons' for his behavior. There are reasons for most behaviors, but they usually can't be reduced down to a simple set of externals as being the entire answer.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 28, 2019 21:17:28 GMT
I don't have to knock myself out. Compassion comes easily to me. Then save it for the children he violated and who's innocence he stole. You don't know that he actually did anything that bad. I do know that people judge him nevertheless.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 21:22:41 GMT
Then save it for the children he violated and who's innocence he stole. You don't know that he actually did anything that bad. I do know that people judge him nevertheless.
Again, there has never been a single accuser who wasn't looking for money, not a single family that had ANY credibility, not a single witness who should be believed because if they're being honest, their asses should've been thrown in prison as co-conspirators, there is NOBODY saying 'he did this' who has any credibility, so how can anybody reasonably say 'okay, EVERYBODY who says he's guilty is lying, but that DOESN'T MEAN anything, he's STILL guilty!'?
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 28, 2019 21:35:23 GMT
MJ could not be told anything he didn't want to hear. He had all the money and fame, he could control people with it to get his way. By people, I mean his family and his employees. His doctor stated this after he died, MJ would not listen to anyone trying to steer him away from harm . When you are that rich and famous and feel like you don't have to answer to anyone, it must create a unique and unusual environment to live in. His thinking must have been so much different from the regular folks of the world. Only a select few people on the planet know how that is.I agree with the OP's opinion, MJ always seemed innocent to me, his love for kids seemed genuine to me too. People would be more willing to accept that he was a pedophile than a childlike man. I hope I'm right, he was a huge idol during my childhood. No one really knows for sure, maybe we never will. People are bound to pick sides. At first I assumed the two accusers were scammers, recently some doubt has crept in, so I'm middle of the road, since I don't know for certain anything. I think this point adds an important factor to the whole equation of Jackson's personality. The magnitude of fame and all that accompanies that fame, of the sort people in Jackson's stratosphere breathe along with the air they take in, places them in an environment so radically different from anything those of us outside of it know that I really believe it can't help but seriously distort the personalities of those experiencing it. They live in a sealed bubble totally cut off from the mundane world in its' entirety--the ways of the world outside of that bubble are, or become meaningless to the bubble's inhabitants (Donald Trump is an excellent example of this, and also a good example of why people who have spent their lives dwelling in such an environment are a not a good choice for real-world leadership roles). If you couple this with a pre-existing personality disorder--or even if you accept the theory that the environment produced the disorder--it's not that surprising that you end up with an individual who has only the haziest notions of what constitutes proper boundaries or 'normal' conduct among the hoi polloi who live outside of that exalted sphere, and probably no real comprehension at all of why they should be required to abide by those standards. I wouldn't disagree with any of this. And I am sure Michael Jackson was a likely candidate for having a personality disorder or at least tendencies towards. If he was not a narcissist, then I would have been surprised by that. Masses of people had idolized since he was a young child and not really for a great reason. It was all he knew. And it becomes very difficult to have bad feelings about the guy. And I am all hung up on intentions, anyway. But a special shout-out, amyghost, to your use of the phrase "hoi polloi"... I have only heard that phrase used once. And right now I am unable to recall exactly where. A movie or a tv show and whichever it was, I know I saw it 100 times. So it would have to be a movie that I love. I just can't think of it right now and it's driving me CRAZY! I am almost positive, though, that whoever said it, it was a male character. It's on the edge of my consciousness. But I am confident that I will remember before the day is over! But I always liked the way those words come out sounding and I just now looked up the meaning. I will have to integrate it into my working vocabulary. "hoi polloi..."
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