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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 29, 2019 14:58:53 GMT
I'll start with your last point. Forgiveness IS key. I agree. But only AFTER the person has been punished (jail time) for their crimes. I do believe in redemption, but only after real actions have been taken... which are A) admission and acceptance of guilt, and B) atonement according to the law, which may come in the form of fines or jail time or both.
And yes, I do realize these are no longer applicable to MJ.
If you see the Documentary Leaving Neverland you will hear accusations (which I believe) that he did in fact do MUCH worse than just "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Much worse. And he kept on doing it, over many years, with many victims. It was very hard to watch. Very few documentaries or works of fiction made me feel that uncomfortable.
If these accusations are true, then yes of course he exploited their innocence, and yes they do feel horrible about what happened to them, to the point that it still affects them now. Just because he bought them toys and played with them and hid the misconduct under he guise of child like play doesn't mean they didn't grow up and realize what was happening.
I guess we'll never know 100% for sure exactly what happened. But come on... we all thought something was suspicious. All the little boys, all the pay offs, all the accusations... Where's there's smoke there's a fire. Well there's a little too much smoke there imo.
I wonder if you'd watch the doc and then tell me what you thought. I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
The capacity to forgive is not contingent upon the need for the revenge/need for justice. It comes from a spiritual place, from deep within. How many Jews forgave Hitler? Do you know how deep this goes? Maybe I will watch the documentary. I will say that I agree with you that none of us will ever know for sure what really happened. What is comes down to now is that you believe the accusations and I do not. Simple as that, really. And as far as everybody thinking something was suspect... Well, isn't that just the way human nature goes. I tell you what, lenny (is that okay if I call you that? don't want to disrespect you on that) - if you read Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery", then I will watch "Leaving Neverland". Fair deal? Deeply scary and disturbing tale...Shirley Jackson was a brilliantly intuitive mind and she knew what it was all about, namely the danger of ominous group think and society's need for scapegoats, which brings out the very worst in human nature. This need to judge and to hide in the crowd and not be accountable for one's own POV. Most people are just blind blind blind. It is beyond maddening. If you are the type of person who thinks for himself and maybe has been burdened with some anti-group sentiments along the way, then it's just a dreadful prospect. And I think - unlike you - that Michael Jackson was unfairly condemned. It is my deepest feeling that Michael Jackson did nothing truly bad. And it's all a fine line, really... a judgment call, if you will... The bottom line and what is so much more relevant than "facts", I think, is that people see what they want to see. And most people gravitate towards the crowd. Fortunately or unfortunately, I have never done this. But I take great comfort in the knowledge that one of my greatest heroes, Shirley Jackson, could not do it, either. I WILL read it, and I hope you find and watch Leaving Neverland.
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Post by clusium on Jul 29, 2019 17:03:50 GMT
Agreed, but, I have a strong feeling he still would have done so. Remember the 'Marin Bashir ' interview, when he (Bashir) addressed the issues of MJ sleeping with kids? Bashar asked MJ if he understood peoples' concerns about him (Jackson) sleeping with kids, & he replied that he did. Bashir asked him why, & Jackson replied, "Because they are ignorant." I think that MJ (& other pedophiles, just like him)truly believed that what he was doing was caring, & not harmful in any kind of way. He was wrong, but, he just did not realize that he was wrong. I'll never forget that Martin Bashir interview. It was the first time I felt there was truly something more than rumor behind the accusations. In the interview he's seen holding a boys hand and talking about sleeping with him, in a way that made me think "aw, man, he did do it, and he doesn't see what's wrong with it". I saw it on YouTube, only a few months after watching Leaving Neverland. When he responded to Bashir's question with "because they're ignorant," I realized he truly did not see what he was doing was wrong. He thought what he was doing was being caring, when in reality, it was very harmful.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 29, 2019 20:02:44 GMT
I'll never forget that Martin Bashir interview. It was the first time I felt there was truly something more than rumor behind the accusations. In the interview he's seen holding a boys hand and talking about sleeping with him, in a way that made me think "aw, man, he did do it, and he doesn't see what's wrong with it". I saw it on YouTube, only a few months after watching Leaving Neverland. When he responded to Bashir's question with "because they're ignorant," I realized he truly did not see what he was doing was wrong. He thought what he was doing was being caring, when in reality, it was very harmful.
And why did Bashir do a 180 after Michael's death, claiming he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong, 6 years after his quaint little cut and edited smear campaign?
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Post by rogerthat on Jul 29, 2019 20:55:06 GMT
I saw it on YouTube, only a few months after watching Leaving Neverland. When he responded to Bashir's question with "because they're ignorant," I realized he truly did not see what he was doing was wrong. He thought what he was doing was being caring, when in reality, it was very harmful.
And why did Bashir do a 180 after Michael's death, claiming he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong, 6 years after his quaint little cut and edited smear campaign?
That's an interesting claim. I never saw Bashir claiming he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong. I just googled it and couldn't find anything to that effect. Do you have a link to where he does a "180" and says he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong? Edit: it has been a couple of hours since I asked for a link and I noted you returned to this thread repeatedly since but have ignored my request. Did you miss this or did you falsely claim what you did about Bashir doing a 180 on MJ?
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Post by movieliker on Jul 29, 2019 21:06:31 GMT
Absolutely no way... I think he was mentally unbalanced and did not know how to act appropriately, but watching him in videos/interviews, my heart actually goes out to him. He was, I am sure of it, an absolute sweetheart. If nothing else, Elizabeth Taylor adored him and I will trust her judgment every time. People go crazy over their own projections. Just wanted to even out the bad feelings for the poor guy. I really do think he was more than decent. Maybe. But regardless, I still like his music. |
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Post by clusium on Jul 29, 2019 22:57:01 GMT
I saw it on YouTube, only a few months after watching Leaving Neverland. When he responded to Bashir's question with "because they're ignorant," I realized he truly did not see what he was doing was wrong. He thought what he was doing was being caring, when in reality, it was very harmful.
And why did Bashir do a 180 after Michael's death, claiming he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong, 6 years after his quaint little cut and edited smear campaign?
That is something you would have to ask Mr. Bashir. Not me. All I know is what MJ answered in that documentary: MB: Do you understand people's concern with you sleeping with young children? MJ: "Yes." MB: "Why is it?" MJ: "Because they're ignorant." That's not understanding other people's concerns, that is being on the defensive, regarding his own personal actions, with young people.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 29, 2019 23:04:35 GMT
And why did Bashir do a 180 after Michael's death, claiming he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong, 6 years after his quaint little cut and edited smear campaign?
That is something you would have to ask Mr. Bashir. Not me. All I know is what MJ answered in that documentary: MB: Do you understand people's concern with you sleeping with young children? MJ: "Yes." MB: "Why is it?" MJ: "Because they're ignorant." That's not understanding other people's concerns, that is being on the defensive, regarding his own personal actions, with young people.
Given the only kids who slept in his bedroom were the ones whose parents gave the okay on it beforehand, why would he feel a need to 'understand other people's concerns'? Those other people weren't there, the parents who said yes and had no problem with it WERE.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 29, 2019 23:37:33 GMT
And why did Bashir do a 180 after Michael's death, claiming he didn't believe Michael did anything wrong, 6 years after his quaint little cut and edited smear campaign?
That is something you would have to ask Mr. Bashir. Not me. All I know is what MJ answered in that documentary: MB: Do you understand people's concern with you sleeping with young children? MJ: "Yes." MB: "Why is it?" MJ: "Because they're ignorant." That's not understanding other people's concerns, that is being on the defensive, regarding his own personal actions, with young people. What Jacko is really wanting to imply, is that they are ignorant for assuming that he did anything untoward to them. Yet, he didn't appear to understand that it is understandably of concern and a bizarre request right from the start, to want to actively have these boys over for a sleepover, when in person, he was technically a stranger to them and their parents. This is an aspect of the narcissism and entitlements his fame and wealth provided him.
The stupidity and gullibility of these kids parents was\is staggering.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 29, 2019 23:38:48 GMT
That is something you would have to ask Mr. Bashir. Not me. All I know is what MJ answered in that documentary: MB: Do you understand people's concern with you sleeping with young children? MJ: "Yes." MB: "Why is it?" MJ: "Because they're ignorant." That's not understanding other people's concerns, that is being on the defensive, regarding his own personal actions, with young people.
Given the only kids who slept in his bedroom were the ones whose parents gave the okay on it beforehand, why would he feel a need to 'understand other people's concerns'? Those other people weren't there, the parents who said yes and had no problem with it WERE.
Because narcissists don't understand or are emphatic to others concerns. It is of concern that it was even approved by the parents.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 29, 2019 23:43:43 GMT
Given the only kids who slept in his bedroom were the ones whose parents gave the okay on it beforehand, why would he feel a need to 'understand other people's concerns'? Those other people weren't there, the parents who said yes and had no problem with it WERE.
Because narcissists don't understand or are emphatic to others concerns. It is of concern that it was even approved by the parents.
But not of concern to anybody who was actually there, why didn't any of the skeptics ever go and check it out for themselves?
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 29, 2019 23:52:13 GMT
Because narcissists don't understand or are emphatic to others concerns. It is of concern that it was even approved by the parents. But not of concern to anybody who was actually there, why didn't any of the skeptics ever go and check it out for themselves?
How were they supposed to check it out? Jacko was protected by those in his circles.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 30, 2019 0:27:44 GMT
But not of concern to anybody who was actually there, why didn't any of the skeptics ever go and check it out for themselves?
How were they supposed to check it out? Jacko was protected by those in his circles.
There were families staying at his home all the time, even when he wasn't there, case in point Wade Robson was at Neverland 14 times during the whole 7 years he claimed he was molested EVERY-SINGLE-NIGHT, but somehow Michael was only present 4 of those 14 times. Now if the skeptics actually tried, they probably could've gotten themselves invited and observed what really went on instead of going by what was in the tabloids.
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Post by clusium on Jul 30, 2019 0:47:56 GMT
That is something you would have to ask Mr. Bashir. Not me. All I know is what MJ answered in that documentary: MB: Do you understand people's concern with you sleeping with young children? MJ: "Yes." MB: "Why is it?" MJ: "Because they're ignorant." That's not understanding other people's concerns, that is being on the defensive, regarding his own personal actions, with young people.
Given the only kids who slept in his bedroom were the ones whose parents gave the okay on it beforehand, why would he feel a need to 'understand other people's concerns'? Those other people weren't there, the parents who said yes and had no problem with it WERE.
Except for the fact that the reason there were suspicions were because of that lawsuit that he paid off, about a decade earlier. That was how the world even found out that he had slept with the kids that stayed at his ranch. He got himself into his own mess with the Law by getting that close with kids. Even if he wasn't guilty, he brought all those accusations & suspicions upon himself by having sleepovers with kids. His explanation for doing so, was because he "never had a childhood." His child stardom deprived him of a normal life, which included sleepovers with other kids. However, MJ had THOUSANDS of sleepovers with youngsters as an adult, way beyond the amount of sleepovers, most kids have ever had. One or two should have sufficed. Thousands of way, way, overdoing it, even if he was innocent.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 30, 2019 0:48:57 GMT
If its true that he was castrated by his father-I mean, he was sooo fucked up and yet certainly possible considering his adult voice.
Maybe that is what caused him to turn his face into the mummy.
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Post by clusium on Jul 30, 2019 0:51:39 GMT
That is something you would have to ask Mr. Bashir. Not me. All I know is what MJ answered in that documentary: MB: Do you understand people's concern with you sleeping with young children? MJ: "Yes." MB: "Why is it?" MJ: "Because they're ignorant." That's not understanding other people's concerns, that is being on the defensive, regarding his own personal actions, with young people. What Jacko is really wanting to imply, is that they are ignorant for assuming that he did anything untoward to them. Yet, he didn't appear to understand that it is understandably of concern and a bizarre request right from the start, to want to actively have these boys over for a sleepover, when in person, he was technically a stranger to them and their parents. This is an aspect of the narcissism and entitlements his fame and wealth provided him.
The stupidity and gullibility of these kids parents was\is staggering.
Yes, even implying that they were ignorant for assuming he did anything inappropriate was still being on the defensive. As I mentioned in my post to novastar, nobody would have even known he was having these sleepovers with these kids, until one kid's father filed a lawsuit against him.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 0:52:54 GMT
How were they supposed to check it out? Jacko was protected by those in his circles. There were families staying at his home all the time, even when he wasn't there, case in point Wade Robson was at Neverland 14 times during the whole 7 years he claimed he was molested EVERY-SINGLE-NIGHT, but somehow Michael was only present 4 of those 14 times. Now if the skeptics actually tried, they probably could've gotten themselves invited and observed what really went on instead of going by what was in the tabloids.
I understand that stories get compounded, confounded and convoluted. There were agendas from all sides and that is why it became a 3 ring circus. They were molested, they weren't molested, adults were present, adults weren't present, but what we do know, is that it is adults that created all this confusion due to whoring out their own kids to fuel their own egos and entitlements.
Don't you think it is at the least somewhat creepy that a grown man like Jacko was allowed to indulge in his childlike behavior and that the boys parents helped encourage this and that Jacko's cohorts assisted in protecting him?
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 30, 2019 1:06:37 GMT
There were families staying at his home all the time, even when he wasn't there, case in point Wade Robson was at Neverland 14 times during the whole 7 years he claimed he was molested EVERY-SINGLE-NIGHT, but somehow Michael was only present 4 of those 14 times. Now if the skeptics actually tried, they probably could've gotten themselves invited and observed what really went on instead of going by what was in the tabloids.
I understand that stories get compounded, confounded and convoluted. There were agendas from all sides and that is why it became a 3 ring circus. They were molested, they weren't molested, adults were present, adults weren't present, but what we do know, is that it is adults that created all this confusion due to whoring out their own kids to fuel their own egos and entitlements.
Don't you think it is at the least somewhat creepy that a grown man like Jacko was allowed to indulge in his childlike behavior and that the boys parents helped encourage this and that Jacko's cohorts assisted in protecting him?
Can't say as I do because the big picture is there were thousands of kids, boys AND girls who stayed at his home, and both boys AND girls who stayed in his bedroom, but because girls don't sell as many headlines, everybody acts like they just don't exist, so a viewpoint that's not even based on what's true (ie: ONLY boys, INVITING boys into his bedroom, etc) isn't even worth considering. And in fact several months back a woman did come out also posthumously accusing him of molesting her many years ago, but guess where that story went? Dead in the water because everybody was too busy drooling over how NSYNC-ish Wade and Jimmy looked during the photo shoots for their big breakthrough as professional victims, everybody just feels so sorry for the two 'good looking guys' while they're fakey crying.
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Post by clusium on Jul 30, 2019 1:21:58 GMT
I understand that stories get compounded, confounded and convoluted. There were agendas from all sides and that is why it became a 3 ring circus. They were molested, they weren't molested, adults were present, adults weren't present, but what we do know, is that it is adults that created all this confusion due to whoring out their own kids to fuel their own egos and entitlements.
Don't you think it is at the least somewhat creepy that a grown man like Jacko was allowed to indulge in his childlike behavior and that the boys parents helped encourage this and that Jacko's cohorts assisted in protecting him?
Can't say as I do because the big picture is there were thousands of kids, boys AND girls who stayed at his home, and both boys AND girls who stayed in his bedroom, but because girls don't sell as many headlines, everybody acts like they just don't exist, so a viewpoint that's not even based on what's true (ie: ONLY boys, INVITING boys into his bedroom, etc) isn't even worth considering. And in fact several months back a woman did come out also posthumously accusing him of molesting her many years ago, but guess where that story went? Dead in the water because everybody was too busy drooling over how NSYNC-ish Wade and Jimmy looked during the photo shoots for their big breakthrough as professional victims, everybody just feels so sorry for the two 'good looking guys' while they're fakey crying.
That is a load of nonsense!!!! The sexual abuse of children is a cause for great concern NO MATTER THE GENDER!!! In fact, when one considers how much women are the victims of sexual violence, logic dictates that the media will be interested in any alleged female victims of MJ.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 2:49:04 GMT
I understand that stories get compounded, confounded and convoluted. There were agendas from all sides and that is why it became a 3 ring circus. They were molested, they weren't molested, adults were present, adults weren't present, but what we do know, is that it is adults that created all this confusion due to whoring out their own kids to fuel their own egos and entitlements.
Don't you think it is at the least somewhat creepy that a grown man like Jacko was allowed to indulge in his childlike behavior and that the boys parents helped encourage this and that Jacko's cohorts assisted in protecting him?
Can't say as I do because the big picture is there were thousands of kids, boys AND girls who stayed at his home, and both boys AND girls who stayed in his bedroom, but because girls don't sell as many headlines, everybody acts like they just don't exist, so a viewpoint that's not even based on what's true (ie: ONLY boys, INVITING boys into his bedroom, etc) isn't even worth considering. And in fact several months back a woman did come out also posthumously accusing him of molesting her many years ago, but guess where that story went? Dead in the water because everybody was too busy drooling over how NSYNC-ish Wade and Jimmy looked during the photo shoots for their big breakthrough as professional victims, everybody just feels so sorry for the two 'good looking guys' while they're fakey crying.
I agree about the crocodile tears and phony posturing of sentimentality over these alleged Jacko victims, who aren't really damaged goods due to whatever experience, but because of a doco that is still exploiting the issue and flogging a dead horse, they were to appear as per its agenda.
However, it is just not true about what you say about nobody cares about females and that they don't exist when something happens to them. The media panders and paws over female rights and abuse attributed to them and also maligns males in the process. You appear to have a distorted and misaligned take on what is rational reasoning regarding Jacko's behavior and how it was indulged and those that fueled it.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 3:02:13 GMT
What Jacko is really wanting to imply, is that they are ignorant for assuming that he did anything untoward to them. Yet, he didn't appear to understand that it is understandably of concern and a bizarre request right from the start, to want to actively have these boys over for a sleepover, when in person, he was technically a stranger to them and their parents. This is an aspect of the narcissism and entitlements his fame and wealth provided him.
The stupidity and gullibility of these kids parents was\is staggering.
Yes, even implying that they were ignorant for assuming he did anything inappropriate was still being on the defensive. As I mentioned in my post to novastar, nobody would have even known he was having these sleepovers with these kids, until one kid's father filed a lawsuit against him. Yes, and this lawsuit suddenly brought to light that it was possible that it wasn't so much in childlike innocence after all and it should have never been allowed to happen in the first place. Supervised tours yes, not leaving their kids for fun and games overnight in a wonderland with an eccentric and troubled superstar that hoodwinked them.
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