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Post by clusium on Jul 30, 2019 3:40:01 GMT
Yes, even implying that they were ignorant for assuming he did anything inappropriate was still being on the defensive. As I mentioned in my post to novastar, nobody would have even known he was having these sleepovers with these kids, until one kid's father filed a lawsuit against him. Yes, and this lawsuit suddenly brought to light that it was possible that it wasn't so much in childlike innocence after all and it should have never been allowed to happen in the first place. Supervised tours yes, not leaving their kids for fun and games overnight in a wonderland with an eccentric and troubled superstar that hoodwinked them. Or if there were to be overnight stays, it should have been in a cabin or apartment with their own parents or caregivers. Not in MJ's private quarters.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 4:04:10 GMT
 I'll start with your last point. Forgiveness IS key. I agree. But only AFTER the person has been punished (jail time) for their crimes. I do believe in redemption, but only after real actions have been taken... which are A) admission and acceptance of guilt, and B) atonement according to the law, which may come in the form of fines or jail time or both.
And yes, I do realize these are no longer applicable to MJ.
How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Forgiving criminals without them paying any kind of price is just being a sucker. I'll forgive once the guilty has done the work to clean up their act. Otherwise anyone can just do anything they want and it'll all just be fine and dandy because "forgiveness".
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
Wtf are you talking about? Dude, this is a child molester we're talking about. Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal. Why DONT you?!
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 4:10:15 GMT
How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Forgiving criminals without them paying any kind of price is just being a sucker. I'll forgive once the guilty has done the work to clean up their act. Otherwise anyone can just do anything they want and it'll all just be fine and dandy because "forgiveness".
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
Wtf are you talking about? Dude, this is a child molester we're talking about. Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal. Why DONT you?!
Sheesh! Control issues much alright! I agree your hate and anger issues are making you appear like a scumbag. 
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 4:20:07 GMT
How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Forgiving criminals without them paying any kind of price is just being a sucker. I'll forgive once the guilty has done the work to clean up their act. Otherwise anyone can just do anything they want and it'll all just be fine and dandy because "forgiveness".
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
Wtf are you talking about? Dude, this is a child molester we're talking about. Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal. Why DONT you?!
Sheesh! Control issues much alright! I agree your hate and anger issues are making you appear like a scumbag. Ah... ye olde deflection tactic. A classic.
You go on and keep defending the child molester. Have fun with that.  
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 4:44:49 GMT
Sheesh! Control issues much alright! I agree your hate and anger issues are making you appear like a scumbag. Ah... ye olde deflection tactic. A classic.
You go on and keep defending the child molester. Have fun with that.
You are taking things out of context len and projecting your own disheveled stories onto something because of how you only think things are or should be. This is your own delusion. Like already mentioned, you have control and anger issues, so have fun sorting these out and all the best with them....... 
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 30, 2019 7:03:03 GMT
Yes, and this lawsuit suddenly brought to light that it was possible that it wasn't so much in childlike innocence after all and it should have never been allowed to happen in the first place. Supervised tours yes, not leaving their kids for fun and games overnight in a wonderland with an eccentric and troubled superstar that hoodwinked them. Or if there were to be overnight stays, it should have been in a cabin or apartment with their own parents or caregivers. Not in MJ's private quarters.
Even when the parents were IN his 'private quarters'?
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 30, 2019 7:08:39 GMT
How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Forgiving criminals without them paying any kind of price is just being a sucker. I'll forgive once the guilty has done the work to clean up their act. Otherwise anyone can just do anything they want and it'll all just be fine and dandy because "forgiveness".
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
Wtf are you talking about? Dude, this is a child molester we're talking about. Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal. Why DONT you?!
No, that's not the way it works, lenlen. First of all, if Michael Jackson needed to ask for forgiveness, he would be asking the boys he slept with for forgiveness. Not you. Why would you think he owes you anything? You never knew him. He didn't do anything to you. That's like me picking some random criminal, take Adolph Hitler, and saying... "Well, Hitler owes me an apology and even then I'm not going to forgive him until he's been punished..." The Jews and others who suffered through the Holocaust and lost their loved ones, they are the ones who are in a position to forgive or not. It has nothing to do with me, just like Michael Jackson has nothing to do with you. And if the Jew who lived through the Holocaust has felt the need to forgive the Nazis, I very much doubt that they are thinking... "Oh, maybe I shouldn't forgive Hitler, because then everybody will think it's allright to do it because I forgave him..." I'm not getting how your mind is working here. No, the person who forgives does so because if they don't forgive, then they just might find themselves consumed with hate and resentment, which kill the soul. They forgive for THEMSELVES... So they can go on and still feel like a human being and still be able to trust and be at least a little bit vulnerable... You see? Who wants to go on hating? It is exhausting. And needing for the perp to be punished first is treading very dangerous ground, lenlen... For instance... What if somebody had been abused by a parent and grew up resentful towards the parent? Do you think it's really a good idea if the adult child says "Well, I'll forgive my mom. But only after she's been punished!" It's a terrible idea. First of all, who is to say whether or not the perp is ever going to be punished to your satisfaction? If the person goes by unpunished, are you going to spend the rest of your days bitter and resentful and with self-righteous anger because so and so didn't go to jail or whatever? No, the person who forgives does so because they need to release all that toxic stuff and try to move on. And I believe what Toasted Cheese meant was that if a person forgives, then they forgive... And if they do choose to forgive, then that was their choice. Nobody forced them to do so. If a person stays resentful and unforgiving until they hear that Ted Bundy has been executed, and now that he's been executed, they're okay with forgiving with him.... Then your forgiveness was contingent upon some external action that you had no control over one way or the other and you are allowing a bunch of old farts in black robes to have control, more or less, over your soul. Then it means nothing. And I would be somewhat afraid to look at it that way, because you're not really going to get a good night's sleep if this is what forgiveness means to you. At least I know I could not. But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way. And "that's normal"? Who are you to say what is normal? Personally I think that the mob mentality is abhorrent and terrifying. And I take responsibility for that. YOU think that child molesters are scumbags. So YOU take responsibility for that. Don't try and rely on what you think is normal to save your soul, because I do not think that is how it works. I think what you really mean is that your ideas about justice would feel vindicated if said person were punished. And then if you feel vindicated, then you can exhale and say "Okay, I'll forgive him now." What you're really describing is revenge. Do you not see how meaningless all that is? That your forgiveness all depends on how the law goes down. If Judy Justice passes down a strong sentence, then you can forgive... And if the person gets off free, then you can't forgive... Is that it? Don't you see that one of the most HUMAN things any of us can ever do is to forgive and that you're giving away your strength to the justice system, which, by the way, is very, very fallible to begin with... Were you, by any chance, one of the posters who said that it didn't matter whether or not Samantha Geimer forgave Roman Polanski? Because for anybody who does feel this way, then what they are saying is that how they feel towards Roman Polanski (or Adolph Hitler, or Michael Jackson) is more important than how the ACTUAL VICTIM feels. How big a WTF is that? And then it becomes about something else entirely. I wonder if you really care about the victims at all. Sometimes, I think that you and others are all upset because your unwavering notion of justice has been offended and you just can't deal with the fact that things don't always work out according to the rules as you were taught to understand them. So many people want - no, NEED - to think everything is black and white. I am just happy for anybody who has the grace and the strength and the generosity of spirit to forgive their perpetrator. These individuals are the ones who are praise-worthy, imo.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 9:21:17 GMT
How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Forgiving criminals without them paying any kind of price is just being a sucker. I'll forgive once the guilty has done the work to clean up their act. Otherwise anyone can just do anything they want and it'll all just be fine and dandy because "forgiveness".
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
Wtf are you talking about? Dude, this is a child molester we're talking about. Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal. Why DONT you?! You never knew him. He didn't do anything to you. That's like me picking some random criminal, take Adolph Hitler, and saying... "Well, Hitler owes me an apology and even then I'm not going to forgive him until he's been punished..." The Jews and others who suffered through the Holocaust and lost their loved ones, they are the ones who are in a position to forgive or not. It has nothing to do with me, just like Michael Jackson has nothing to do with you. And if the Jew who lived through the Holocaust has felt the need to forgive the Nazis, I very much doubt that they are thinking... "Oh, maybe I shouldn't forgive Hitler, because then everybody will think it's allright to do it because I forgave him..." I'm not getting how your mind is working here.No, the person who forgives does so because if they don't forgive, then they just might find themselves consumed with hate and resentment, which kill the soul. They forgive for THEMSELVES... So they can go on and still feel like a human being and still be able to trust and be at least a little bit vulnerable... You see? Who wants to go on hating? It is exhausting.And needing for the perp to be punished first is treading very dangerous ground, lenlen... For instance... What if somebody had been abused by a parent and grew up resentful towards the parent? Do you think it's really a good idea if the adult child says "Well, I'll forgive my mom. But only after she's been punished!" It's a terrible idea. First of all, who is to say whether or not the perp is ever going to be punished to your satisfaction? If the person goes by unpunished, are you going to spend the rest of your days bitter and resentful and with self-righteous anger because so and so didn't go to jail or whatever? No, the person who forgives does so because they need to release all that toxic stuff and try to move on. And I believe what Toasted Cheese meant was that if a person forgives, then they forgive... And if they do choose to forgive, then that was their choice. Nobody forced them to do so. If a person stays resentful and unforgiving until they hear that Ted Bundy has been executed, and now that he's been executed, they're okay with forgiving with him.... Then your forgiveness was contingent upon some external action that you had no control over one way or the other and you are allowing a bunch of old farts in black robes to have control, more or less, over your soul. Then it means nothing. And I would be somewhat afraid to look at it that way, because you're not really going to get a good night's sleep if this is what forgiveness means to you. At least I know I could not. But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way. And "that's normal"? Who are you to say what is normal? Personally I think that the mob mentality is abhorrent and terrifying. And I take responsibility for that. YOU think that child molesters are scumbags. So YOU take responsibility for that. Don't try and rely on what you think is normal to save your soul, because I do not think that is how it works.
I think what you really mean is that your ideas about justice would feel vindicated if said person were punished. And then if you feel vindicated, then you can exhale and say "Okay, I'll forgive him now." What you're really describing is revenge. Do you not see how meaningless all that is? That your forgiveness all depends on how the law goes down. If Judy Justice passes down a strong sentence, then you can forgive... And if the person gets off free, then you can't forgive... Is that it? Don't you see that one of the most HUMAN things any of us can ever do is to forgive and that you're giving away your strength to the justice system, which, by the way, is very, very fallible to begin with... Were you, by any chance, one of the posters who said that it didn't matter whether or not Samantha Geimer forgave Roman Polanski? Because for anybody who does feel this way, then what they are saying is that how they feel towards Roman Polanski (or Adolph Hitler, or Michael Jackson) is more important than how the ACTUAL VICTIM feels. How big a WTF is that? And then it becomes about something else entirely. I wonder if you really care about the victims at all. Sometimes, I think that you and others are all upset because your unwavering notion of justice has been offended and you just can't deal with the fact that things don't always work out according to the rules as you were taught to understand them. So many people want - no, NEED - to think everything is black and white. I am just happy for anybody who has the grace and the strength and the generosity of spirit to forgive their perpetrator. These individuals are the ones who are praise-worthy, imo. Whoa Mr. Dirty!  At least you have had the patience, energy and insight to bother breaking it all down from a soulful and holistic perspective than I could be bothered with, especially when confronted with hostility and anger that is irrational and wrongheaded. Len has taken a disproportionate pov, is seeing things in black and white and his emotional headspace is taking over. Why bother wasting time and energy harboring hatred and revulsion over someone who has been long dead a decade ago and who's actions had no impact or consequence, except in the lives of those that experienced it? There is nothing to forgive for the rest of us, even if Jacko was convicted and imprisoned.
I refuse to take a simpleminded approach to this Jacko debacle and I have neither outrightly defended nor condemned him due to the many shades and layers in his stratosphere. It is the same with Polanski and nothing is clear cut here either. People will believe what they want to though, due to their own ignorance and insecurities, but that is their right also. I know I can't be bothered with the rabble who stand in the pit and demand hell fire and brimstone rain down on others and lose their own soul in the process. They just don't freakin' get it!
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 22:40:50 GMT
You are taking things out of context len and projecting your own disheveled stories onto something because of how you only think things are or should be. This is your own delusion. Like already mentioned, you have control and anger issues, so have fun sorting these out and all the best with them....... Will do. 
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 22:48:07 GMT
How can you be forgiving, if you feel the need to punish first? True and genuine forgiveness does not come with conditions and expectations, it is just what it is.
Forgiving criminals without them paying any kind of price is just being a sucker. I'll forgive once the guilty has done the work to clean up their act. Otherwise anyone can just do anything they want and it'll all just be fine and dandy because "forgiveness".
Why does any person have to live up to the standards and expectations of what some establishment tells them they should feel about something? You CANNOT make anyone, regardless of innocence or guilt, feel something they don't want to, or may not even be capable of. That is just about control standards\issues and does not solve anything about aberrant behaviors in our society.
Wtf are you talking about? Dude, this is a child molester we're talking about. Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal. Why DONT you?!
No, that's not the way it works, lenlen. First of all, if Michael Jackson needed to ask for forgiveness, he would be asking the boys he slept with for forgiveness. Not you. Why would you think he owes you anything? You never knew him. He didn't do anything to you. That's like me picking some random criminal, take Adolph Hitler, and saying... "Well, Hitler owes me an apology and even then I'm not going to forgive him until he's been punished..." The Jews and others who suffered through the Holocaust and lost their loved ones, they are the ones who are in a position to forgive or not. It has nothing to do with me, just like Michael Jackson has nothing to do with you. And if the Jew who lived through the Holocaust has felt the need to forgive the Nazis, I very much doubt that they are thinking... "Oh, maybe I shouldn't forgive Hitler, because then everybody will think it's allright to do it because I forgave him..." I'm not getting how your mind is working here. No, the person who forgives does so because if they don't forgive, then they just might find themselves consumed with hate and resentment, which kill the soul. They forgive for THEMSELVES... So they can go on and still feel like a human being and still be able to trust and be at least a little bit vulnerable... You see? Who wants to go on hating? It is exhausting. And needing for the perp to be punished first is treading very dangerous ground, lenlen... For instance... What if somebody had been abused by a parent and grew up resentful towards the parent? Do you think it's really a good idea if the adult child says "Well, I'll forgive my mom. But only after she's been punished!" It's a terrible idea. First of all, who is to say whether or not the perp is ever going to be punished to your satisfaction? If the person goes by unpunished, are you going to spend the rest of your days bitter and resentful and with self-righteous anger because so and so didn't go to jail or whatever? No, the person who forgives does so because they need to release all that toxic stuff and try to move on. And I believe what Toasted Cheese meant was that if a person forgives, then they forgive... And if they do choose to forgive, then that was their choice. Nobody forced them to do so. If a person stays resentful and unforgiving until they hear that Ted Bundy has been executed, and now that he's been executed, they're okay with forgiving with him.... Then your forgiveness was contingent upon some external action that you had no control over one way or the other and you are allowing a bunch of old farts in black robes to have control, more or less, over your soul. Then it means nothing. And I would be somewhat afraid to look at it that way, because you're not really going to get a good night's sleep if this is what forgiveness means to you. At least I know I could not. But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way. And "that's normal"? Who are you to say what is normal? Personally I think that the mob mentality is abhorrent and terrifying. And I take responsibility for that. YOU think that child molesters are scumbags. So YOU take responsibility for that. Don't try and rely on what you think is normal to save your soul, because I do not think that is how it works. I think what you really mean is that your ideas about justice would feel vindicated if said person were punished. And then if you feel vindicated, then you can exhale and say "Okay, I'll forgive him now." What you're really describing is revenge. Do you not see how meaningless all that is? That your forgiveness all depends on how the law goes down. If Judy Justice passes down a strong sentence, then you can forgive... And if the person gets off free, then you can't forgive... Is that it? Don't you see that one of the most HUMAN things any of us can ever do is to forgive and that you're giving away your strength to the justice system, which, by the way, is very, very fallible to begin with... Were you, by any chance, one of the posters who said that it didn't matter whether or not Samantha Geimer forgave Roman Polanski? Because for anybody who does feel this way, then what they are saying is that how they feel towards Roman Polanski (or Adolph Hitler, or Michael Jackson) is more important than how the ACTUAL VICTIM feels. How big a WTF is that? And then it becomes about something else entirely. I wonder if you really care about the victims at all. Sometimes, I think that you and others are all upset because your unwavering notion of justice has been offended and you just can't deal with the fact that things don't always work out according to the rules as you were taught to understand them. So many people want - no, NEED - to think everything is black and white. I am just happy for anybody who has the grace and the strength and the generosity of spirit to forgive their perpetrator. These individuals are the ones who are praise-worthy, imo. What are you talking about? I never said he or anyone owed ME an apology? Link to where it says that. I'll wait...
But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way.
Okay, ask around. Your friends and family. See how many of them DONT think a child molester is a scumbag. I think its you who's going to be surprised.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. This has to do with being a decent human being. Children are the most innocent of all of us. When you ruin a childs life because you want to get your sexual rocks off you are a piece of shit. I don't need a mob or anyone to tell me what right and wrong in that decision. To talk to people you know personally who have children and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. Go ask.
Again, I think its you who's going to be surprised.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 23:04:32 GMT
You are taking things out of context len and projecting your own disheveled stories onto something because of how you only think things are or should be. This is your own delusion. Like already mentioned, you have control and anger issues, so have fun sorting these out and all the best with them....... Will do. You're a liar so you won't! 
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 30, 2019 23:14:21 GMT
No, that's not the way it works, lenlen. First of all, if Michael Jackson needed to ask for forgiveness, he would be asking the boys he slept with for forgiveness. Not you. Why would you think he owes you anything? You never knew him. He didn't do anything to you. That's like me picking some random criminal, take Adolph Hitler, and saying... "Well, Hitler owes me an apology and even then I'm not going to forgive him until he's been punished..." The Jews and others who suffered through the Holocaust and lost their loved ones, they are the ones who are in a position to forgive or not. It has nothing to do with me, just like Michael Jackson has nothing to do with you. And if the Jew who lived through the Holocaust has felt the need to forgive the Nazis, I very much doubt that they are thinking... "Oh, maybe I shouldn't forgive Hitler, because then everybody will think it's allright to do it because I forgave him..." I'm not getting how your mind is working here. No, the person who forgives does so because if they don't forgive, then they just might find themselves consumed with hate and resentment, which kill the soul. They forgive for THEMSELVES... So they can go on and still feel like a human being and still be able to trust and be at least a little bit vulnerable... You see? Who wants to go on hating? It is exhausting. And needing for the perp to be punished first is treading very dangerous ground, lenlen... For instance... What if somebody had been abused by a parent and grew up resentful towards the parent? Do you think it's really a good idea if the adult child says "Well, I'll forgive my mom. But only after she's been punished!" It's a terrible idea. First of all, who is to say whether or not the perp is ever going to be punished to your satisfaction? If the person goes by unpunished, are you going to spend the rest of your days bitter and resentful and with self-righteous anger because so and so didn't go to jail or whatever? No, the person who forgives does so because they need to release all that toxic stuff and try to move on. And I believe what Toasted Cheese meant was that if a person forgives, then they forgive... And if they do choose to forgive, then that was their choice. Nobody forced them to do so. If a person stays resentful and unforgiving until they hear that Ted Bundy has been executed, and now that he's been executed, they're okay with forgiving with him.... Then your forgiveness was contingent upon some external action that you had no control over one way or the other and you are allowing a bunch of old farts in black robes to have control, more or less, over your soul. Then it means nothing. And I would be somewhat afraid to look at it that way, because you're not really going to get a good night's sleep if this is what forgiveness means to you. At least I know I could not. But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way. And "that's normal"? Who are you to say what is normal? Personally I think that the mob mentality is abhorrent and terrifying. And I take responsibility for that. YOU think that child molesters are scumbags. So YOU take responsibility for that. Don't try and rely on what you think is normal to save your soul, because I do not think that is how it works. I think what you really mean is that your ideas about justice would feel vindicated if said person were punished. And then if you feel vindicated, then you can exhale and say "Okay, I'll forgive him now." What you're really describing is revenge. Do you not see how meaningless all that is? That your forgiveness all depends on how the law goes down. If Judy Justice passes down a strong sentence, then you can forgive... And if the person gets off free, then you can't forgive... Is that it? Don't you see that one of the most HUMAN things any of us can ever do is to forgive and that you're giving away your strength to the justice system, which, by the way, is very, very fallible to begin with... Were you, by any chance, one of the posters who said that it didn't matter whether or not Samantha Geimer forgave Roman Polanski? Because for anybody who does feel this way, then what they are saying is that how they feel towards Roman Polanski (or Adolph Hitler, or Michael Jackson) is more important than how the ACTUAL VICTIM feels. How big a WTF is that? And then it becomes about something else entirely. I wonder if you really care about the victims at all. Sometimes, I think that you and others are all upset because your unwavering notion of justice has been offended and you just can't deal with the fact that things don't always work out according to the rules as you were taught to understand them. So many people want - no, NEED - to think everything is black and white. I am just happy for anybody who has the grace and the strength and the generosity of spirit to forgive their perpetrator. These individuals are the ones who are praise-worthy, imo. What are you talking about? I never said he or anyone owed ME an apology? Link to where it says that. I'll wait...
But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way.
Okay, ask around. Your friends and family. See how many of them DONT think a child molester is a scumbag. I think its you who's going to be surprised.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. This has to do with being a decent human being. Children are the most innocent of all of us. When you ruin a childs life because you want to get your sexual rocks off you are a piece of shit. I don't need a mob or anyone to tell me what right and wrong in that decision. To talk to people you know personally who have children and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. Go ask.
Again, I think its you who's going to be surprised.
What you are doing len, is taking one aspect that you can desperately cling onto to avoid looking at the essence or substance of what was said to you by dirtypillows . He has given you a gift here. I am disappointed, but not really surprised, because whatever it is you feel you want to express about how you want others to see you, or how you think you should be acting or thinking, only really proves to me what a  and sheep you really are. Go ahead an seek others approval if it makes you feel better, but again, it only shows how insecure and shallow you are sounding when you can only see things in a black and white perspective. You really don't care, so stop pretending that you do.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 30, 2019 23:14:54 GMT
No, that's not the way it works, lenlen. First of all, if Michael Jackson needed to ask for forgiveness, he would be asking the boys he slept with for forgiveness. Not you. Why would you think he owes you anything? You never knew him. He didn't do anything to you. That's like me picking some random criminal, take Adolph Hitler, and saying... "Well, Hitler owes me an apology and even then I'm not going to forgive him until he's been punished..." The Jews and others who suffered through the Holocaust and lost their loved ones, they are the ones who are in a position to forgive or not. It has nothing to do with me, just like Michael Jackson has nothing to do with you. And if the Jew who lived through the Holocaust has felt the need to forgive the Nazis, I very much doubt that they are thinking... "Oh, maybe I shouldn't forgive Hitler, because then everybody will think it's allright to do it because I forgave him..." I'm not getting how your mind is working here. No, the person who forgives does so because if they don't forgive, then they just might find themselves consumed with hate and resentment, which kill the soul. They forgive for THEMSELVES... So they can go on and still feel like a human being and still be able to trust and be at least a little bit vulnerable... You see? Who wants to go on hating? It is exhausting. And needing for the perp to be punished first is treading very dangerous ground, lenlen... For instance... What if somebody had been abused by a parent and grew up resentful towards the parent? Do you think it's really a good idea if the adult child says "Well, I'll forgive my mom. But only after she's been punished!" It's a terrible idea. First of all, who is to say whether or not the perp is ever going to be punished to your satisfaction? If the person goes by unpunished, are you going to spend the rest of your days bitter and resentful and with self-righteous anger because so and so didn't go to jail or whatever? No, the person who forgives does so because they need to release all that toxic stuff and try to move on. And I believe what Toasted Cheese meant was that if a person forgives, then they forgive... And if they do choose to forgive, then that was their choice. Nobody forced them to do so. If a person stays resentful and unforgiving until they hear that Ted Bundy has been executed, and now that he's been executed, they're okay with forgiving with him.... Then your forgiveness was contingent upon some external action that you had no control over one way or the other and you are allowing a bunch of old farts in black robes to have control, more or less, over your soul. Then it means nothing. And I would be somewhat afraid to look at it that way, because you're not really going to get a good night's sleep if this is what forgiveness means to you. At least I know I could not. But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way. And "that's normal"? Who are you to say what is normal? Personally I think that the mob mentality is abhorrent and terrifying. And I take responsibility for that. YOU think that child molesters are scumbags. So YOU take responsibility for that. Don't try and rely on what you think is normal to save your soul, because I do not think that is how it works. I think what you really mean is that your ideas about justice would feel vindicated if said person were punished. And then if you feel vindicated, then you can exhale and say "Okay, I'll forgive him now." What you're really describing is revenge. Do you not see how meaningless all that is? That your forgiveness all depends on how the law goes down. If Judy Justice passes down a strong sentence, then you can forgive... And if the person gets off free, then you can't forgive... Is that it? Don't you see that one of the most HUMAN things any of us can ever do is to forgive and that you're giving away your strength to the justice system, which, by the way, is very, very fallible to begin with... Were you, by any chance, one of the posters who said that it didn't matter whether or not Samantha Geimer forgave Roman Polanski? Because for anybody who does feel this way, then what they are saying is that how they feel towards Roman Polanski (or Adolph Hitler, or Michael Jackson) is more important than how the ACTUAL VICTIM feels. How big a WTF is that? And then it becomes about something else entirely. I wonder if you really care about the victims at all. Sometimes, I think that you and others are all upset because your unwavering notion of justice has been offended and you just can't deal with the fact that things don't always work out according to the rules as you were taught to understand them. So many people want - no, NEED - to think everything is black and white. I am just happy for anybody who has the grace and the strength and the generosity of spirit to forgive their perpetrator. These individuals are the ones who are praise-worthy, imo. What are you talking about? I never said he or anyone owed ME an apology? Link to where it says that. I'll wait...
But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way.
Okay, ask around. Your friends and family. See how many of them DONT think a child molester is a scumbag. I think its you who's going to be surprised.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. This has to do with being a decent human being. Children are the most innocent of all of us. When you ruin a childs life because you want to get your sexual rocks off you are a piece of shit. I don't need a mob or anyone to tell me what right and wrong in that decision. To talk to people you know personally who have children and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. Go ask.
Again, I think its you who's going to be surprised.
You've chosen to disregard almost everything I said, which doesn't surprise me, because you have only the same 2 or 3 things to say... I was being sarcastic when I said that Adolph Hitler owed me an apology. You didn't get that? My basic point was that true forgiveness does not wait for so-called justice. True forgiveness comes from within. What you have in place of real forgiveness is self-righteous anger. What you want is vindication. Do you even know what that is? What you need is self-awareness. Not a whole lot surprises me these days, lenlen, least of all you and your simple-minded outlook...
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Jul 31, 2019 10:04:25 GMT
What are you talking about? I never said he or anyone owed ME an apology? Link to where it says that. I'll wait...
But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way.
Okay, ask around. Your friends and family. See how many of them DONT think a child molester is a scumbag. I think its you who's going to be surprised.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. This has to do with being a decent human being. Children are the most innocent of all of us. When you ruin a childs life because you want to get your sexual rocks off you are a piece of shit. I don't need a mob or anyone to tell me what right and wrong in that decision. To talk to people you know personally who have children and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. Go ask.
Again, I think its you who's going to be surprised.
You've chosen to disregard almost everything I said, which doesn't surprise me, because you have only the same 2 or 3 things to say... I was being sarcastic when I said that Adolph Hitler owed me an apology. You didn't get that? My basic point was that true forgiveness does not wait for so-called justice. True forgiveness comes from within. What you have in place of real forgiveness is self-righteous anger. What you want is vindication. Do you even know what that is? What you need is self-awareness. Not a whole lot surprises me these days, lenlen, least of all you and your simple-minded outlook... He doesn't get or understand about forgiveness, which is simply put being forever giving, yet he feels he is caring and compassionate but has this approach...... 
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 31, 2019 16:44:40 GMT
Will do. You're a liar so you won't! WOW. Now I'm a lair. OMG! You're something else.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 31, 2019 16:47:52 GMT
What are you talking about? I never said he or anyone owed ME an apology? Link to where it says that. I'll wait...
But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way.
Okay, ask around. Your friends and family. See how many of them DONT think a child molester is a scumbag. I think its you who's going to be surprised.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. This has to do with being a decent human being. Children are the most innocent of all of us. When you ruin a childs life because you want to get your sexual rocks off you are a piece of shit. I don't need a mob or anyone to tell me what right and wrong in that decision. To talk to people you know personally who have children and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. Go ask.
Again, I think its you who's going to be surprised.
What you are doing len, is taking one aspect that you can desperately cling onto to avoid looking at the essence or substance of what was said to you by dirtypillows . He has given you a gift here. I am disappointed, but not really surprised, because whatever it is you feel you want to express about how you want others to see you, or how you think you should be acting or thinking, only really proves to me what a and sheep you really are. Go ahead an seek others approval if it makes you feel better, but again, it only shows how insecure and shallow you are sounding when you can only see things in a black and white perspective. You really don't care, so stop pretending that you do.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 31, 2019 16:51:35 GMT
What are you talking about? I never said he or anyone owed ME an apology? Link to where it says that. I'll wait...
But there is the mob mentality and maybe that's what you mean when you say "Everyone agrees child molesters are scumbags. That's normal." You have no idea if everybody feels this way.
Okay, ask around. Your friends and family. See how many of them DONT think a child molester is a scumbag. I think its you who's going to be surprised.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. This has to do with being a decent human being. Children are the most innocent of all of us. When you ruin a childs life because you want to get your sexual rocks off you are a piece of shit. I don't need a mob or anyone to tell me what right and wrong in that decision. To talk to people you know personally who have children and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. Go ask.
Again, I think its you who's going to be surprised.
You've chosen to disregard almost everything I said, which doesn't surprise me, because you have only the same 2 or 3 things to say... I was being sarcastic when I said that Adolph Hitler owed me an apology. You didn't get that? My basic point was that true forgiveness does not wait for so-called justice. True forgiveness comes from within. What you have in place of real forgiveness is self-righteous anger. What you want is vindication. Do you even know what that is? What you need is self-awareness. Not a whole lot surprises me these days, lenlen, least of all you and your simple-minded outlook... I repeat: talk to people you know personally, who have children, your own friends and family, and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 31, 2019 17:58:25 GMT
You've chosen to disregard almost everything I said, which doesn't surprise me, because you have only the same 2 or 3 things to say... I was being sarcastic when I said that Adolph Hitler owed me an apology. You didn't get that? My basic point was that true forgiveness does not wait for so-called justice. True forgiveness comes from within. What you have in place of real forgiveness is self-righteous anger. What you want is vindication. Do you even know what that is? What you need is self-awareness. Not a whole lot surprises me these days, lenlen, least of all you and your simple-minded outlook... I repeat: talk to people you know personally, who have children, your own friends and family, and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. As I said in the other thread, Len, you are in the right, let this subject go as dead as Michael Jackson is.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 31, 2019 19:01:15 GMT
You've chosen to disregard almost everything I said, which doesn't surprise me, because you have only the same 2 or 3 things to say... I was being sarcastic when I said that Adolph Hitler owed me an apology. You didn't get that? My basic point was that true forgiveness does not wait for so-called justice. True forgiveness comes from within. What you have in place of real forgiveness is self-righteous anger. What you want is vindication. Do you even know what that is? What you need is self-awareness. Not a whole lot surprises me these days, lenlen, least of all you and your simple-minded outlook... I repeat: talk to people you know personally, who have children, your own friends and family, and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. If... Yes, a lot depends on that one word. Their answers are going to be pretty much meaningless because nobody really knows what they would do in a hypothetical situation. Of course, we DO know what the boys' parents would do... why, of course, shout "Eureka!" and go for the pot of gold... I think what's really more pertinent is that the parents would let their kids spend the night with a grown man, who may or may not have come under suspicion. Forget Michael Jackson for a minute. The parents - the two people who are supposed to protect and guide the child - are the ones who should be under fire. of course, they probably did not get punished at all... So, where's your outrage there? If we're talking about crime and punishment. What they did - to throw their child to the wolf (if you believe that MJ was wolf-like) - is about as awful as it gets. It starts with the parents. If the boys had shitty parents then things are gloomy at the onset. Anyway, I know how most people feel about child molesters. This has not been my point here, anyway. I don't necessarily love child molesters. Their darkness frightens me. I guess I am just someone who sees the bigger picture, in a way, and I know that the adult predator was more than likely abused as a child. But where's the understanding for him? There is none. As soon as they turn eighteen, all is lost... And I know the cliched response... not all people who were abused as children grow up to abuse... how true it is... So, like another cliche goes... it's an ugly job but somebody has to do it. I don't have children, but if somebody hurt my dog, I would be devastated. But - and there's no way to know it unless it actually happened - I am the type of person who would more likely be more sad about what happened to my loved one than angered by the person who did it. In other words, I would see blue before I saw red. That's not to say I would not protect my loved one, if the going got tough. But I don't know if it's such a good idea to feed the anger. And you're getting overly angry at a dead celebrity who did nothing to you is not helpful. You're just spinning your emotional wheels.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 31, 2019 19:25:42 GMT
I repeat: talk to people you know personally, who have children, your own friends and family, and ask them what they would do if they found out a stranger molested their children. If... Yes, a lot depends on that one word. Their answers are going to be pretty much meaningless because nobody really knows what they would do in a hypothetical situation. Of course, we DO know what the boys' parents would do... why, of course, shout "Eureka!" and go for the pot of gold... I think what's really more pertinent is that the parents would let their kids spend the night with a grown man, who may or may not have come under suspicion. Forget Michael Jackson for a minute. The parents - the two people who are supposed to protect and guide the child - are the ones who should be under fire. of course, they probably did not get punished at all... So, where's your outrage there? If we're talking about crime and punishment. What they did - to throw their child to the wolf (if you believe that MJ was wolf-like) - is about as awful as it gets. It starts with the parents. If the boys had shitty parents then things are gloomy at the onset. Anyway, I know how most people feel about child molesters. This has not been my point here, anyway. I don't necessarily love child molesters. Their darkness frightens me. I guess I am just someone who sees the bigger picture, in a way, and I know that the adult predator was more than likely abused as a child. But where's the understanding for him? There is none. As soon as they turn eighteen, all is lost... And I know the cliched response... not all people who were abused as children grow up to abuse... how true it is... So, like another cliche goes... it's an ugly job but somebody has to do it. I don't have children, but if somebody hurt my dog, I would be devastated. But - and there's no way to know it unless it actually happened - I am the type of person who would more likely be more sad about what happened to my loved one than angered by the person who did it. In other words, I would see blue before I saw red. That's not to say I would not protect my loved one, if the going got tough. But I don't know if it's such a good idea to feed the anger. And you're getting overly angry at a dead celebrity who did nothing to you is not helpful. You're just spinning your emotional wheels. My outrage against the parents is clear as I've said before in previous posts (and yes they can be found) that I also blame the parents, and that they are assholes too, and that I would never leave my children with a stranger, Michael Jackson or not.
p.s. I love your lines...
Their answers are going to be pretty much meaningless I don't necessarily love child molesters. I don't have children, but if somebody hurt my dog, I would be devastated. I would see blue before I saw red.
I'm sure your friends and loved ones appreciate that.
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