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Post by goz on Aug 20, 2019 0:55:19 GMT
OK. I will play. What is 'God's Will'? How do you know this? I thought you told me what God's will is which is why I have no feeling of responsibility in life. Anything regarding God's Will is readily available in Scripture. You should read it sometime since it's clear you never have. Would you like a free Bible Study? Which is it then? Is it abrogating personal responsibility by doing whatever you think 'God's Will is, which you then say is clear in the Scriptures? How do you know that what you think is God's will by your personal interpretation pf his Scriptures, IS IN FACT God's Will?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 20, 2019 1:12:14 GMT
I thought you told me what God's will is which is why I have no feeling of responsibility in life. Anything regarding God's Will is readily available in Scripture. You should read it sometime since it's clear you never have. Would you like a free Bible Study? Which is it then? Is it abrogating personal responsibility by doing whatever you think 'God's Will is, which you then say is clear in the Scriptures? How do you know that what you think is God's will by your personal interpretation pf his Scriptures, IS IN FACT God's Will? I reject your silly notion of this being an "either...or" mandate. The bottom line is my "personal interpretation" of God's Will is better than your fan fiction version of it anyway. Prove me wrong.
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Post by goz on Aug 20, 2019 1:20:53 GMT
Which is it then? Is it abrogating personal responsibility by doing whatever you think 'God's Will is, which you then say is clear in the Scriptures? How do you know that what you think is God's will by your personal interpretation pf his Scriptures, IS IN FACT God's Will? I reject your silly notion of this being an "either...or" mandate. The bottom line is my "personal interpretation" of God's Will is better than your fan fiction version of it anyway. Prove me wrong. As usual, you side stopped the question which was with a really juvenile 'Mine's better than yours' scenario. Since I don't have an interpretation (fan fiction or otherwise which is ironic you call it that since you are the fan of the Bible fiction) because neither the word of God Bible nor God are proven facts, let alone a definitive of what that illusive God's will actually is... Whilst I can't prove you wrong, YOU can't prove you are right and that there is a thing called God's Will in the Bible or otherwise.
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Post by goz on Aug 20, 2019 2:00:22 GMT
I thought you told me what God's will is which is why I have no feeling of responsibility in life. Anything regarding God's Will is readily available in Scripture. You should read it sometime since it's clear you never have. Would you like a free Bible Study? Would you like a free Bible Study? I sill have have a lot of Bible study material. You want it? Thankyou kind Sir! Perhaps you can help me? Between the ages of 11 and 17, I was forced to read and study the Bible at my church run school. Since your Bible study may be more recent than mine...has anything changed recently? If so, I will thankfully accept your offer.
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Post by goz on Aug 20, 2019 2:13:09 GMT
Thankyou kind Sir! Perhaps you can help me? Between the ages of 11 and 17, I was forced to read and study the Bible at my church run school. Since your Bible study may be more recent than mine...has anything changed recently? If so, I will thankfully accept your offer. LOL. I haven’t done religious type Bible study in years. But the last one I attended was at a liberal, inclusive Catholic church. I still hear from the woman who taught it...very sweet, kind lady. A true Christian. Mine was Anglican, butt one would HATE to be 'out of date'! I have heard of those butt sadly met few.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 21, 2019 0:09:23 GMT
FilmFlaneur Since context is your worst enemy I will assume that quaoting the rest of the chapter will not count by your idiotic standards, but honesty copells [sic] me to post it anyway. ]45 “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains ; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you hidden treasures, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the Lord, the God of Israel, who summons you by name. 4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me. 5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.So as is obvious for anyone else to see, the verse isn't even talking about natural disaster but even if it were, what makes you so stupid to think it's discussing an ongoing thing? Now, that wasn't really a plain yes or no, was it? LOL. So then, I ask again: does your god here admit to creating 'disaster' or 'dire misfortune' (or 'evil' as some other bibles have it), or not? And where does the verse context suggest that disaster was created by God merely on a temporary basis ? Why, indeed, would a god which characteristically speaks in terms of the absolute and is supposedly outside of time, create evil 'just for a bit'? Indeed has its absence been noted much lately? Special pleading noted, as promised. Here, for everyone else is the context, courtesy of Bible Gateway who might be presumed to know: the word translated “evil” in the KJV is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The context of Isaiah 45:7 is, yes God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. So we see Isaiah 45:7 presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster, misfortune or evil on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him. As we know from Timothy, all scripture is suitable for instruction. The learning here is exactly as I said - Jehovah deliberately creates these things, with this an example of same while failing to alleviate or avoid the collateral damage among the innocent and good, which in any reasonable view makes the idea of God inconsistent. QED. BTW:it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence although the Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures.. given that the usual distinction is between moral evil (the misuse of free will) and the natural (earthquakes, cancer or plain severe bad luck) it is clear here which is intended. I hope that helps. Ah, so the deity you worship did not look back on his newly-made creation in Genesis and was satisfied to find it merely "very good'? And it can easily be shown that the innocent and good are less likely to suffer from disasters from that same entity? Got it. But we are talking about a form of natural evil or disaster: childhood cancers, tidal waves, etc which appear to affect the good and bad equally, not sunsets and flower scents, or natural events in general. All it takes for evil to flourish and to affect the good and innocent (who, it might be noted, often pray that they might be helped or spared) is for a good deity to do nothing. Remember the Good Samaritan parable? I do. How does the idea fit in with an example of a deity who could ease pain and suffering, especially of the good and innocent but 'walks on by'? I guess we are back to the OP and the problems in ascribing all sorts of dubious things to 'God's will'... OK: lets get that suggestion's implication straight: childhood cancer and the disasters which kill the good and innocent are to be thought of as a form of... perfection? You can see how this type of theophiliac argument, with all of its associated inhumanity, shakes the confidence of the sceptical and moreover suggests a lack of moral compass. It reminds me of the faithful who have insisted to me in the past that the mass murder of the alleged biblical flood was a 'good thing' (more of that god's will in action) and then wonder why a humanist like I would quibble the praise of genocide in any so-called 'context'. He just won't 'remember' them enough to save them from the disasters He makes on earth, or are the natural result of his imperfect creation, it seems. (Which exceptionalism would, incidentally be too easy being a clear and obvious proof of your all-good God's active existence) Remember how I said how I would flag up special pleading? I do so again here, when I am asked by you to consider the consistency of a moral god who, supposedly 'remembers' the good and faithful there and then - just not those unfortunates here and now. An unchanging god that would be, too. I don't 'expect' anything. I don't know an all powerful all-good deity exists. I just note that, in connection with His alleged will, it does not extend to any special care for his chosen peoples or the innocent which can be identified, or to offer protection from the imperfect world He has made, while knowing (as He would) what is going to happen in nature. I just note, too, the special pleading involved to explain matters: "It does not mean natural disasters" LOL Worshippers often say that natural disasters are sent to make them stronger. Presumably then, happy events and good times are sent to make them weaker. I am 'whining' - more accurately, querying - about the inconsistencies of a god which does not act to protect those who most admire and worship him while demanding they do so. An ad hominem, even a mild one, is not an argument. But I think you really know that. From this I am sure you are already assured a place in the heavenly choir, or a place with 27 virgins and all that great fruit, or whatever floats your metaphysical scheme of reward as one of the elect. But what does your bible say about pride? Methinks here you protest too much. As already mentioned, there is another system, which requires a person to take their own responsibility for their lives in the painful light of a reality without reason and which does not rely on the supposed largesse, or threatened judgement, of a deliberate supernatural.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 21, 2019 22:23:59 GMT
FilmFlaneur Since context is your worst enemy I will assume that quaoting the rest of the chapter will not count by your idiotic standards, but honesty copells [sic] me to post it anyway. ]45 “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains ; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you hidden treasures, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the Lord, the God of Israel, who summons you by name. 4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me. 5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, 6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.So as is obvious for anyone else to see, the verse isn't even talking about natural disaster but even if it were, what makes you so stupid to think it's discussing an ongoing thing? Now, that wasn't really a plain yes or no, was it? LOL. So then, I ask again: does your god here admit to creating 'disaster' or 'dire misfortune' (or 'evil' as some other bibles have it), or not? And where does the verse context suggest that disaster was created by God merely on a temporary basis ? Why, indeed, would a god which characteristically speaks in terms of the absolute and is supposedly outside of time, create evil 'just for a bit'? Indeed has its absence been noted much lately? Special pleading noted, as promised. Here, for everyone else is the context, courtesy of Bible Gateway who might be presumed to know: the word translated “evil” in the KJV is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The context of Isaiah 45:7 is, yes God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. So we see Isaiah 45:7 presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster, misfortune or evil on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him. As we know from Timothy, all scripture is suitable for instruction. The learning here is exactly as I said - Jehovah deliberately creates these things, with this an example of same while failing to alleviate or avoid the collateral damage among the innocent and good, which in any reasonable view makes the idea of God inconsistent QED. BTW:it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence although the Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures.. given that the usual distinction is between moral evil (the misuse of free will) and the natural (earthquakes, cancer or plain severe bad luck) it is clear here which is intended. I hope that helps. And answer came there none.
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Post by goz on Aug 21, 2019 22:30:20 GMT
Now, that wasn't really a plain yes or no, was it? LOL. So then, I ask again: does your god here admit to creating 'disaster' or 'dire misfortune' (or 'evil' as some other bibles have it), or not? And where does the verse context suggest that disaster was created by God merely on a temporary basis ? Why, indeed, would a god which characteristically speaks in terms of the absolute and is supposedly outside of time, create evil 'just for a bit'? Indeed has its absence been noted much lately? Special pleading noted, as promised. Here, for everyone else is the context: the word translated “evil” in the KJV is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The context of Isaiah 45:7 is, yes God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. So we see Isaiah 45:7 presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster, misfortune or evil on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him. As we know from Timothy, all scripture is suitable for instruction. The learning here is exactly as I said - Jehovah deliberately creates these things, with this an example of same QED. BTW:it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence although the Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures.. given that the usual distinction is between moral evil (the misuse of free will) and the natural (earthquakes, cancer or plain severe bad luck) it is clear here which is intended. I hope that helps. And answer came there none. ...yes, butt you don't know what Cool's religious beliefs are so how can you question them? He reserves the right to keep them 'private' so he can move sideways on such issues, yet hypocritically challenges everyone else!
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