|
|
Post by darkpast on Aug 29, 2019 4:34:23 GMT
Or always been this way, maybe if the prequels were during the social media era it would be just as bad?
|
|
|
|
Post by Prime etc. on Aug 29, 2019 4:39:46 GMT
Lucas was crucified after TPM came out. So much so that he backtracked from making JarJar a central character.
If you look at how he was regarded before TPM you can see the hits his reputation took. But since he created Star Wars the disappointment wasn't turned into the kind of hate that Disney got.
|
|
|
|
Post by shinnickneth on Aug 29, 2019 17:11:36 GMT
Lucas was crucified after TPM came out. So much so that he backtracked from making JarJar a central character. If you look at how he was regarded before TPM you can see the hits his reputation took. But since he created Star Wars the disappointment wasn't turned into the kind of hate that Disney got.That's not why Disney got the blowback they have. George Lucas took the high road and didn't feel compelled to insult/antagonize fans online - he simply made the Star Wars movies he wanted to make. He understood his characters, mythology, and galaxy he built. He was silent on everything else until shortly before he sold the franchise. Even when he did speak on the criticism he received for the PT/special editions, he only defended himself and his choices instead of attacking fans. I can respect that (even if I didn't like some of the choices he made with the special editions). Disney, on the other hand, put people at the helm of the franchise who are incompetent, can't collaborate, don't understand the already established canon, etc. Combine that with their strategy of attacking fans and alienating them, those same fans aren't going to bring their kids to the theater/store for their terrible products. It's why they have a near empty theme park, low box office numbers, dwindling merchandising sales, bad fan reviews, social media criticism, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Prime etc. on Aug 29, 2019 18:15:57 GMT
That's not why Disney got the blowback they have. George Lucas took the high road and didn't feel compelled to insult/antagonize fans online - he simply made the Star Wars movies he wanted to make. He understood his characters, mythology, and galaxy he built. He was silent on everything else until shortly before he sold the franchise. Even when he did speak on the criticism he received for the PT/special editions, he only defended himself and his choices instead of attacking fans. I can respect that (even if I didn't like some of the choices he made with the special editions). Disney, on the other hand, put people at the helm of the franchise who are incompetent, can't collaborate, don't understand the already established canon, etc. Combine that with their strategy of attacking fans and alienating them, those same fans aren't going to bring their kids to the theater/store for their terrible products. It's why they have a near empty theme park, low box office numbers, dwindling merchandising sales, bad fan reviews, social media criticism, etc. I am not defending Disney, just pointing out the difference between the receptions.
|
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Aug 29, 2019 19:59:38 GMT
Or always been this way, maybe if the prequels were during the social media era it would be just as bad? There's been an element of toxicity since the prequels. But it really exploded after RLM/Mr. Plinkett (prequel review) videos. They ripped into the prequels with hypercritical commentary and cynical humor. It started a cult following. It inspired copycats and a new level of toxic subculture in the SW fanbase. The toxic element gradually simmered down until TFA. TFA created a "happy honeymoon" effect. But even in TFA there were things in the making that could lead to waking the toxicity back up. That happened after the results of TLJ. I think what helps make it worse now is a number of factors. There are a lot more YouTubers making ranting movie review videos right now. Social media is everywhere now. Forum toxicity is probably a little more prevalent also. People politicize things much more now. Plus George Lucas held his tongue against prequel hater trolls. Disney has launched a PR attack campaign against trolls and all other elements of criticism of their brand of SW. So there's toxicity in that. If those same things were going on when the prequel hate started, it might have stood out just as much. |
|
|
|
Post by shinnickneth on Aug 29, 2019 20:01:25 GMT
I am not defending Disney, just pointing out the difference between the receptions. Oh, I didn't think you were defending them. There's more at play though than what you stated, so I built off what you wrote.
|
|
|
|
Post by shinnickneth on Aug 29, 2019 20:06:25 GMT
There's been an element of toxicity since the prequels. But it really exploded after RLM/Mr. Plinkett (prequel review) videos. They ripped into the prequels with hypercritical commentary and cynical humor. It started a cult following. It inspired copycats and a new level of toxic subculture in the SW fanbase. The toxic element gradually simmered down until TFA. TFA created a "happy honeymoon" effect. But even in TFA there were things in the making that could lead to waking the toxicity back up. That happened after TLJ. I think what helps make it worse now is a number of factors. There are a lot more YouTubers making ranting movie review videos right now. Social media is everywhere now. Forum toxicity is probably a little more prevalent also. People politicize things much more now. Plus George Lucas held his tongue against prequel hater trolls. Disney has launched a PR attack campaign against trolls and all other elements of criticism of their brand of SW. So there's toxicity in that. If those same things were going on when the prequel hate started, it might have stood out just as much. Not just towards trolls, but towards actual longtime "been with the franchise since the beginning" fans as well. Any criticism towards their new movies is rejected as racism, sexism, xenophobia, classism, and any other word they can use to dismiss what the customers are telling them. They just won't accept that they messed up - that rushing out movies (especially a whole trilogy) without any planning wasn't a good idea...it must be the fans fault they messed up! 
|
|
|
|
Post by Feologild Oakes on Aug 29, 2019 20:07:58 GMT
Its always been toxic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Aug 29, 2019 20:18:04 GMT
There's been an element of toxicity since the prequels. But it really exploded after RLM/Mr. Plinkett (prequel review) videos. They ripped into the prequels with hypercritical commentary and cynical humor. It started a cult following. It inspired copycats and a new level of toxic subculture in the SW fanbase. The toxic element gradually simmered down until TFA. TFA created a "happy honeymoon" effect. But even in TFA there were things in the making that could lead to waking the toxicity back up. That happened after TLJ. I think what helps make it worse now is a number of factors. There are a lot more YouTubers making ranting movie review videos right now. Social media is everywhere now. Forum toxicity is probably a little more prevalent also. People politicize things much more now. Plus George Lucas held his tongue against prequel hater trolls. Disney has launched a PR attack campaign against trolls and all other elements of criticism of their brand of SW. So there's toxicity in that. If those same things were going on when the prequel hate started, it might have stood out just as much. Not just towards trolls, but towards actual longtime "been with the franchise since the beginning" fans as well. Any criticism towards their new movies is rejected as racism, sexism, xenophobia, classism, and any other word they can use to dismiss what the customers are telling them. They just won't accept that they messed up - that rushing out movies (especially a whole trilogy) without any planning wasn't a good idea...it must be the fans fault they messed up! I agree. That's why I was careful to add "all other elements" after mentioning trolls. It's probably too subtle a way to phrase it, but I noticed that you had already elaborated on it quite effectively. :-) |
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Aug 29, 2019 20:28:16 GMT
There's been an element of toxicity since the prequels. But it really exploded after RLM/Mr. Plinkett (prequel review) videos. They ripped into the prequels with hypercritical commentary and cynical humor. It started a cult following. It inspired copycats and a new level of toxic subculture in the SW fanbase. The toxic element gradually simmered down until TFA. TFA created a "happy honeymoon" effect. But even in TFA there were things in the making that could lead to waking the toxicity back up. That happened after TLJ. I think what helps make it worse now is a number of factors. There are a lot more YouTubers making ranting movie review videos right now. Social media is everywhere now. Forum toxicity is probably a little more prevalent also. People politicize things much more now. Plus George Lucas held his tongue against prequel hater trolls. Disney has launched a PR attack campaign against trolls and all other elements of criticism of their brand of SW. So there's toxicity in that. If those same things were going on when the prequel hate started, it might have stood out just as much. Not just towards trolls, but towards actual longtime "been with the franchise since the beginning" fans as well. Any criticism towards their new movies is rejected as racism, sexism, xenophobia, classism, and any other word they can use to dismiss what the customers are telling them. They just won't accept that they messed up - that rushing out movies (especially a whole trilogy) without any planning wasn't a good idea...it must be the fans fault they messed up! I will also add this: NO OTHER MOVIE STUDIO HAS EVER DONE THIS TO A FANBASE BEFORE! Did they think this was going to work? Did they think they would succeed at stereotyping all of the unhappy fans and shame them into silence? How did no one at Disney think that this would only make things more toxic? |
|
|
|
Post by Prime etc. on Aug 29, 2019 20:53:51 GMT
Plus George Lucas held his tongue against prequel hater trolls. Disney has launched a PR attack campaign against trolls and all other elements of criticism of their brand of SW. So there's toxicity in that. If those same things were going on when the prequel hate started, it might have stood out just as much. That's a great point. Disney most definitely fed the vitriol--Lucas did not. Lucas also suggested things he did were driven by artistic desire (whether one agreed or not-like the SE changes) while Disney does not even hide the fact that they are motivated by political message more than entertainment.
In fact, I think Disney wants to feed the antagonism as part of their political agenda. Does anyone really think they expected a good reception to their decisions-especially when Hamill was vocal in challenging them as he was making it? They did not care. I think Iger and co. told Kennedy what to do--just like he forced her and Abrams to get TFA ready by Christmas even though they wanted more time. The buck stops with the head office.
|
|
|
|
Post by shinnickneth on Aug 30, 2019 2:26:37 GMT
Not just towards trolls, but towards actual longtime "been with the franchise since the beginning" fans as well. Any criticism towards their new movies is rejected as racism, sexism, xenophobia, classism, and any other word they can use to dismiss what the customers are telling them. They just won't accept that they messed up - that rushing out movies (especially a whole trilogy) without any planning wasn't a good idea...it must be the fans fault they messed up! I will also add this: NO OTHER MOVIE STUDIO HAS EVER DONE THIS TO A FANBASE BEFORE! Did they think this was going to work? Did they think they would succeed at stereotyping all of the unhappy fans and shame them into silence? How did no one at Disney think that this would only make things more toxic? So true! It really was a stupid decision on their part. I know I didn't turn on them until they started treating the fans like that. Even Rian Johnson, if someone were to go through my posting history prior to him antagonizing fans online, I was posting how I really didn't like what he did with 8, but I was "glad he was able to make the movie he wanted".
Then he decided to be an asshole online and my perception of him completely changed. Then Kennedy/Iger encouraged the whole "misogyny" angle, and encouraged Johnson's behavior (smart studios would pull back on that type of abuse of fans), and my perception of them changed as well. Now I want nothing to do with Star Wars products in any way. By giving my money, I would be encouraging their behavior and saying the way they have treated the fans the past 7 years was acceptable. It wasn't. It isn't. I hope their Star Wars projects fail and they get canned - only then will I return with my money.
|
|
|
|
Post by shinnickneth on Aug 30, 2019 2:28:56 GMT
I agree. That's why I was careful to add "all other elements" after mentioning trolls. It's probably too subtle a way to phrase it, but I noticed that you had already elaborated on it quite effectively. :-) Oh...yes, you did. I didn't catch that when originally reading your posting. Oops. 
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 4:52:39 GMT
There has been a very loud and very toxic portion of the fan base that started with ROTJ and has steadily grown all along. People start to feel they own the narrative after awhile. I feel the desire to want the story to go the way I want it to go too, but realize that ultimately I'm going to enjoy it the most if I try to make sense of it vs. going out of my way to make nonsense of it.
All things considered, it is still a good story with a closing chapter left to tell, IMHO.
|
|
|
|
Post by ck100 on Aug 30, 2019 5:14:28 GMT
It feels like it has been growing rapidly in recent years with the more Star Wars content we get.
|
|
|
|
Post by politicidal on Aug 30, 2019 12:59:44 GMT
It’s more pronounced than I remember from the prequel backlash. Much more vitriolic. Unless George Lucas was also subjected to online harassment and threats?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 13:13:57 GMT
It’s more pronounced than I remember from the prequel backlash. Much more vitriolic. Unless George Lucas was also subjected to online harassment and threats? I think it's more vitriolic than the prequel time too, but of course, I think everything is more vitriolic, especially online, than it was 15 to 20 years ago!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 16:48:46 GMT
It’s more pronounced than I remember from the prequel backlash. Much more vitriolic. Unless George Lucas was also subjected to online harassment and threats? Maybe prequel hatin' was less vitriolic on average. But there was bein' some guilty ones every bit as vitriolic. "George Lucas raped my childhood!" was only one way him was harassed. Lucas got lots of it. Some prequel haters even made arguments dat him didn't even deserve any credit for success of da Original Trilogy. All da credit should go to other contributors. Some even attacked Jake Lloyd who was bein' a child actor at da time. Over da years Tarpals has even witnessed forum threads where prequel hate was so vitriol dat it made politics boards look a Stuart Smalley intervention!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 17:12:17 GMT
It’s more pronounced than I remember from the prequel backlash. Much more vitriolic. Unless George Lucas was also subjected to online harassment and threats? I think it's more vitriolic than the prequel time too, but of course, I think everything is more vitriolic, especially online, than it was 15 to 20 years ago! But meesa hatin fandom crunchin!
|
|
|
|
Post by agentsparky on Aug 31, 2019 21:36:41 GMT
It’s more pronounced than I remember from the prequel backlash. Much more vitriolic. Unless George Lucas was also subjected to online harassment and threats? Really ? Can you link some proof to this online harassment. I'm very interested.
|
|
