|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 0:00:38 GMT
I'm still trying to figure out who's dumber between Stannis Baratheon and Theon Greyjoy. Its gotta be Stannis. Roasting his own daughter was way beyond the pale. And he was a fool when it came to military strategies too. Theon was driven by jealousy. He was jealous of House Stark being so much more powerful than House Greyjoy. Jealous of Yara being the apple of their father's eye and he was the butt of jokes. Jealous that Robb, Bran and even Jon Snow were better at everything that he was. he seen the opportunity to outdo House Stark and Yara and impulsively took it.
Stannis was jealous of Robert and Renly but it didn't move him as much as Theon. Stannis was driven by Melisandre. And the Red Woman is a character I cannot figure out. She was so sure that all of her moves would make Stannis King and they were so obviously the wrong moves. Was the "Lord of Light" playing Melisandre or was Mel playing Stannis? Stannis' war record had been pretty impressive (Ned thought so anyhoo) before Robert's death and so lousy after. Renly would have crushed him if he hadn't died and Ramsey ran rings around him.
I don't think either was dumb (Ned Stark took that prize, dumb or totally naive), just driven by bad advice.
Theon was jealous? Hmmm.. I never got that impression but maybe the books dive deeper into Theon's story? Did you read the books? I haven't read them yet but I am seriously considering it after watching this show.
Theon told his father that he considered Robb like a brother to him but his father wasn't too impressed by this. Theon even saved Bran's life (and possibly Robb's too) when those bandits jumped Bran when he was riding on a horse. Plus, I thought his decision to take Winterfell was to impress his father after being scolded by him for being the Stark's messenger boy. This eventually led to him getting tortured by Ramsey. Even Yara told him how dumb his decisions were.
One thing they didn't touch on that much was how Theon came into being held by the Starks in the first place. Something about his father leaving him behind or something. I figured this was probably explained in more detail in the books. I'd like to know the whole story behind this... but at least hanging with the Starks was better than getting tortured by Ramsey.
And when Stannis lost the battle of Blackwater Bay, he should have dropped the red woman. Her magic was obviously not that great. But he still continued to believe her and let her make pitiful decisions for him. At the very least, he should have just used her to for assassinations. But letting her be his military advisor was such a bad decision that it's borderline stupid. And to top it all off, not only does he let her do this, he sacrifices his own daughter. goodness... the guy just made one bad decision after another.
But I do agree, Mel is the odd one out. I could never make sense of her character either but I did like her to some extent. Her character was somewhat interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 6, 2022 2:45:07 GMT
Theon was driven by jealousy. He was jealous of House Stark being so much more powerful than House Greyjoy. Jealous of Yara being the apple of their father's eye and he was the butt of jokes. Jealous that Robb, Bran and even Jon Snow were better at everything that he was. he seen the opportunity to outdo House Stark and Yara and impulsively took it. Stannis was jealous of Robert and Renly but it didn't move him as much as Theon. Theon was jealous? Hmmm.. I never got that impression but maybe the books dive deeper into Theon's story? … One thing they didn't touch on that much was how Theon came into being held by the Starks in the first place. I don't see jealousy as a proper description of Theon. He is arrogant in the original sense: that of expecting to be granted things he does not own. Early on, we see him put back into place by a prostitute: "I don't want to pay for it", he tells Ros who answers "then you should should get a wife". He tells Osha he is a lord and she asks "if your father is a lord, how can you be lord too?" Theon's self-fantasised persona constantly clashes with reality. No crowd is waiting for him in the harbour when he comes home and his father does not see him as the long awaited heir returning to command the fleet but as the untrained know-nothing who has to prove himself. Theon does not want to earn things or even take them the Ironborn way, he wants to own them by mere birthright. Once he realises this, he over-compensates and goes for Winterfell instead of just doing what he was told. He was sent out to learn but wants to skip classes and be addressed as Prince. Theon's story is briefly exposed: his father was defeated, his older brothers killed in battle and he was taken hostage to keep his father quiet. He doesn't see things as they are, though. His big trauma is not to be given all the things he wants. Stannis is the opposite. He is the competent, loyal guy who only believes in deserving things and grew bitter at seeing the world doesn't work this way. His primary motivation is to enforce his own false view, to correct the world from not being what he thought it should be, in addition to correcting Davos' grammar. There seems to be some jealousy involved but it is actually annoyance at people not following the rules (Robert giving the family domain to the younger brother) and bitterness at seeing people not sharing his mindset.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 6, 2022 3:05:16 GMT
And when Stannis lost the battle of Blackwater Bay, he should have dropped the red woman. Her magic was obviously not that great. But he still continued to believe her and let her make pitiful decisions for him. At the very least, he should have just used her to for assassinations. But letting her be his military advisor was such a bad decision that it's borderline stupid. And to top it all off, not only does he let her do this, he sacrifices his own daughter. goodness... the guy just made one bad decision after another. Stannis does not rely on Melisandre's magic, he wants to believe in her god being right. Like Ned Stark, he has that willingness to submit to foreign choice, to "fate", to the idea that everything is conducted by some larger organising will and she gives him an excuse to indulge in it. That's why he does things that a rational man wouldn't. The original book character is not like that, by the way. Book-Stannis uses Melisandres' influence on his followers, on his soldiers, but he doesn't fully trust her himself. How the sacrifice of his daughter will play out in the books is yet to be revealed.
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 3:30:42 GMT
Theon was jealous? Hmmm.. I never got that impression but maybe the books dive deeper into Theon's story? … One thing they didn't touch on that much was how Theon came into being held by the Starks in the first place. I don't see jealousy as a proper description of Theon. He is arrogant in the original sense: that of expecting to be granted things he does not own. Early on, we see him put back into place by a prostitute: "I don't want to pay for it", he tells Ros who answers "then you should should get a wife". He tells Osha he is a lord and she asks "if your father is a lord, how can you be lord too?" Theon's self-fantasised persona constantly clashes with reality. No crowd is waiting for him in the harbour when he comes home and his father does not see him as the long awaited heir returning to command the fleet but as the untrained know-nothing who has to prove himself. Theon does not want to earn things or even take them the Ironborn way, he wants to own them by mere birthright. Once he realises this, he over-compensates and goes for Winterfell instead of just doing what he was told. He was sent out to learn but wants to skip classes and be addressed as Prince. Theon's story is briefly exposed: his father was defeated, his older brothers killed in battle and he was taken hostage to keep his father quiet. He doesn't see things as they are, though. His big trauma is not to be given all the things he wants. Stannis is the opposite. He is the competent, loyal guy who only believes in deserving things and grew bitter at seeing the world doesn't work this way. His primary motivation is to enforce his own false view, to correct the world from not being what he thought it should be, in addition to correcting Davos' grammar. There seems to be some jealousy involved but it is actually annoyance at people not following the rules (Robert giving the family domain to the younger brother) and bitterness at seeing people not sharing his mindset.
Hey Leo,
I've read a few of your other posts in here, I think you are the biggest fan of this show. I just recently started watching GoT and finished season 8 last month and was pretty much enthralled by this amazing show.
Makes sense about Theon. He was on the arrogant side like when he arrives to the Iron Islands and assumes that Yara will sleep with him and he tells that one ship merchant who he is, as if the guy is supposed to kiss his ass instantly.
His story is kind of interesting though, does the book give more details on his getting "captured" by the Starks, if you want to call it that.
And are you going to watch House Of Dragon and the Jon Snow spin off? The trailer for HoD looks pretty good but I have serious doubts about Jon Snow. I think an Arya spin off might have been a better route to take or just mix them together along with the other Starks. We'll see what they do with it.
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 4:17:34 GMT
And when Stannis lost the battle of Blackwater Bay, he should have dropped the red woman. Her magic was obviously not that great. But he still continued to believe her and let her make pitiful decisions for him. At the very least, he should have just used her to for assassinations. But letting her be his military advisor was such a bad decision that it's borderline stupid. And to top it all off, not only does he let her do this, he sacrifices his own daughter. goodness... the guy just made one bad decision after another. Stannis does not rely on Melisandre's magic, he wants to believe in her god being right. Like Ned Stark, he has that willingness to submit to foreign choice, to "fate", to the idea that everything is conducted by some larger organising will and she gives him an excuse to indulge in it. That's why he does things that a rational man wouldn't. The original book character is not like that, by the way. Book-Stannis uses Melisandres' influence on his followers, on his soldiers, but he doesn't fully trust her himself. How the sacrifice of his daughter will play out in the books is yet to be revealed.
I find it kind of funny that this show caught up with the book series and more or less passed it. That's gotta make GRRM a little upset, I would think.
But at least Martin did say in a recent interview that the book ending will be different than the TV show. I think that's good, but I honestly didn't mind the ending that much. Apparently, that ending did piss a lot of people off... haha.. I've even heard stories that people were naming their kids after Deanerys. damn, that's funny.
I mean, they had to end it some kind of way but watching Dany roasting women and children was hard to watch. But still, it wasn't that surprising, she showed signs of going off the deep end throughout the entire show.
Maybe roasting a bunch of soldiers that already surrendered would have been a better way to do it. I haven't thought about the way I would have ended it that much though.
And yes, Stannis was depending too much on his religious ideas. Although, that is true to life, people do make odd decisions based on their religious beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 6, 2022 4:18:19 GMT
His story is kind of interesting though, does the book give more details on his getting "captured" by the Starks, if you want to call it that.
And are you going to watch House Of Dragon and the Jon Snow spin off? The trailer for HoD looks pretty good but I have serious doubts about Jon Snow. I think an Arya spin off might have been a better route to take or just mix them together along with the other Starks. We'll see what they do with it.
I don't remember more details from the books but I read them only once years ago. The Wiki of Ice and Fire only says "Theon was a boy of ten when Greyjoy's Rebellion was crushed and his brothers were killed, making him the heir to House Greyjoy and the Iron Islands. Theon was taken from his father, Lord Balon Greyjoy, as a hostage and ward by Lord Eddard Stark and has been raised at Winterfell for nine years since." Not sure about prequels and spin-off. Never cared much for lizards and dogs Targaryen politics could be the basis of an interesting story but I'm afraid it will just be an excuse for more dumbed down woke junk, so I don't really expect to get past the first 15mn. Now, when they do Cersei in Pentos, that will be another matter…
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 6, 2022 4:27:30 GMT
But at least Martin did say in a recent interview that the book ending will be different than the TV show. I think that's good, but I honestly didn't mind the ending that much. Apparently, that ending did piss a lot of people off... haha.. I've even heard stories that people were naming their kids after Deanerys. damn, that's funny. I didn't see that interview. Of course there will have to be some difference, the books being so much more complex, but there is no doubt in my mind that the main fates and events will be the same. Daenerys was always meant to end up at the main villain destroying a city Dresden-style. It was basically announced right after her brother's death when it is implied that "she is the dragon". Dragons have been the destructive monsters in every mythology in the last 10000 years. Idiots were upset because they did not see it coming…
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 4:31:48 GMT
His story is kind of interesting though, does the book give more details on his getting "captured" by the Starks, if you want to call it that.
And are you going to watch House Of Dragon and the Jon Snow spin off? The trailer for HoD looks pretty good but I have serious doubts about Jon Snow. I think an Arya spin off might have been a better route to take or just mix them together along with the other Starks. We'll see what they do with it.
I don't remember more details from the books but I read them only once years ago. The Wiki of Ice and Fire only says "Theon was a boy of ten when Greyjoy's Rebellion was crushed and his brothers were killed, making him the heir to House Greyjoy and the Iron Islands. Theon was taken from his father, Lord Balon Greyjoy, as a hostage and ward by Lord Eddard Stark and has been raised at Winterfell for nine years since." Not sure about prequels and spin-off. Never cared much for lizards and dogs Targaryen politics could be the basis of an interesting story but I'm afraid it will just be an excuse for more dumbed down woke junk, so I don't really expect to get past the first 15mn. Now, when they do Cersei in Pentos, that will be another matter…
Wow, that's a great picture of Lena Heady.
I do see one issue with doing a prequel on the Targaryens, they all like to sleep together. I'm not sure how well it will be received when you consider the Targaryens are usually products of incest.
I mean, it probably won't bother me that much because it's true to life, many royal families did this. But your average viewer might get turned off by it.
And I actually liked the dragons in this, it was the white walkers that I didn't care for. Wolves were fine too, there were some pretty good scenes with the dogs in this show.
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 4:38:41 GMT
But at least Martin did say in a recent interview that the book ending will be different than the TV show. I think that's good, but I honestly didn't mind the ending that much. Apparently, that ending did piss a lot of people off... haha.. I've even heard stories that people were naming their kids after Deanerys. damn, that's funny. I didn't see that interview. Of course there will have to be some difference, the books being so much more complex, but there is no doubt in my mind that the main fates and events will be the same. Daenerys was always meant to end up at the main villain destroying a city Dresden-style. It was basically announced right after her brother's death when it is implied that "she is the dragon". Dragons have been the destructive monsters in every mythology in the last 10000 years. Idiots were upset because they did not see it coming…
Yep, dragons have been portrayed this way for a long time but in eastern culture, they're seen as good creatures and have been for a long time.
I just hope HoD doesn't turn into a dragon fest though, where all we see every week are dragons blazing some town. lol.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 6, 2022 5:59:17 GMT
I've even heard stories that people were naming their kids after Deanerys. damn, that's funny. I haven't thought about the way I would have ended it that much though. I used to have an older neighbour named Adolf. Poor man was born before the hype came down and had to live with it. People don't change. If anything, this show and its popularity put its viewers under a crude light. For a time, I half-expected the author to kill off both Jon and Daenerys in the war against the dead. Since he clearly gets off on twisting plots and banging on his reader's heads, denying them their beloved heroes seemed a likely course, but he had built up an adulated dragon rider for the very purpose of having her turn bad. This was unavoidable. So I do expect Jon to kill Daenerys in the books too, but maybe Jon won't be as much of a disinterested good guy as in the show. Tyrion also turns into a full on villain in the books, not that sorry joke telling fool who has to see common soldiers burn to realise that war isn't nice.
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 16:29:50 GMT
I've even heard stories that people were naming their kids after Deanerys. damn, that's funny. I haven't thought about the way I would have ended it that much though. I used to have an older neighbour named Adolf. Poor man was born before the hype came down and had to live with it. People don't change. If anything, this show and its popularity put its viewers under a crude light. For a time, I half-expected the author to kill off both Jon and Daenerys in the war against the dead. Since he clearly gets off on twisting plots and banging on his reader's heads, denying them their beloved heroes seemed a likely course, but he had built up an adulated dragon rider for the very purpose of having her turn bad. This was unavoidable. So I do expect Jon to kill Daenerys in the books too, but maybe Jon won't be as much of a disinterested good guy as in the show. Tyrion also turns into a full on villain in the books, not that sorry joke telling fool who has to see common soldiers burn to realise that war isn't nice.
This show certainly took the hero concept and turned it upside down. But I really liked all the changes and deviations from the usual ideas of the sword and sorcery genre.
It's quite a spectacle to say the least. Although, after reading some of your posts, I can't tell you like this show or what? lol. Do you think the books are better than the TV show or is about equal?
Tyrion is definitely my favorite character. Dany is great too. But Tyrion kept me interested in the show early on. At least he did until the other character's stories began to take off. Then it was hard not to like The Hound, Dany, Davos, Varys, pretty much all the Starks, Little Finger, even Jaime became quite likable.
And at the end of the day, they're all flawed characters which is something that I think it also a case of art imitating life. We all have our vices and virtues and it was beautifully portrayed in Game Of Thrones.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 6, 2022 17:44:11 GMT
This show certainly took the hero concept and turned it upside down.
Although, after reading some of your posts, I can't tell you like this show or what? lol. Do you think the books are better than the TV show or is about equal?
Tyrion is definitely my favorite character. Dany is great too. But Tyrion kept me interested in the show early on. The author will do anything for a good plot twist. It was a basic principle each season. The writing made you want something only to give you something else. Want Ned Stark on the throne? He's dead. Want Robb and Renly to join forces? They can't. Want the Lannisters away? They stay. Want Robb Stark to finish what his father started? He won't. By the 2nd season, it had become a pattern. By the 3rd, it was ovbious to anyone who could think. People called it genius but… it was just predictable, really. Quality was in the care given to character motivations. The complex logic worked, at least until S5. You could understand exactly why everyone did what they did. Then it stopped. I liked the show for 5 seasons. Then cracks started to show up in the writing and things started happening because the writers needed them to. Ellaria's rage at Oberyn's death was out of her S4 character, Jorah was made to fight in the pit only so he could help save the day, Tyrion was accepted right away into Daenerys' circle as if by miracle, Davos guarded Jon Snow's corpse for no reason and I could list many other examples. S6 was a caricature and I never watched the last two. I followed the story just for the fun of making memes. The writing of the show turned from being a chess game for nerds (tight logic) to a suite of emotionally shocking or pleasing events lacking foundation. The books never underwent that change. Sadly, they are also more juvenile in their appeal, more focused on depictions of gruesomeness or sexuality for the sake of it and some characters are less refined. The show made things more balanced, more believable. I would place the first 4 to 5 seasons of the show above the books. I used to like Tyrion in the first two seasons but Tywin and Cersei were the characters I really liked from the start, the only I wanted to keep around and see prevail. I enjoyed some of the villains too. The real value of the story was in the discussions it generated. I could never get tired of explaining what an arsehole Ned Stark really was.
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 6, 2022 20:23:09 GMT
This show certainly took the hero concept and turned it upside down.
Although, after reading some of your posts, I can't tell you like this show or what? lol. Do you think the books are better than the TV show or is about equal?
Tyrion is definitely my favorite character. Dany is great too. But Tyrion kept me interested in the show early on. The author will do anything for a good plot twist. It was a basic principle each season. The writing made you want something only to give you something else. Want Ned Stark on the throne? He's dead. Want Robb and Renly to join forces? They can't. Want the Lannisters away? They stay. Want Robb Stark to finish what his father started? He won't. By the 2nd season, it had become a pattern. By the 3rd, it was ovbious to anyone who could think. People called it genius but… it was just predictable, really. Quality was in the care given to character motivations. The complex logic worked, at least until S5. You could understand exactly why everyone did what they did. Then it stopped. I liked the show for 5 seasons. Then cracks started to show up in the writing and things started happening because the writers needed them to. Ellaria's rage at Oberyn's death was out of her S4 character, Jorah was made to fight in the pit only so he could help save the day, Tyrion was accepted right away into Daenerys' circle as if by miracle, Davos guarded Jon Snow's corpse for no reason and I could list many other examples. S6 was a caricature and I never watched the last two. I followed the story just for the fun of making memes. The writing of the show turned from being a chess game for nerds (tight logic) to a suite of emotionally shocking or pleasing events lacking foundation. The books never underwent that change. Sadly, they are also more juvenile in their appeal, more focused on depictions of gruesomeness or sexuality for the sake of it and some characters are less refined. The show made things more balanced, more believable. I would place the first 4 to 5 seasons of the show above the books. I used to like Tyrion in the first two seasons but Tywin and Cersei were the characters I really liked from the start, the only I wanted to keep around and see prevail. I enjoyed some of the villains too. The real value of the story was in the discussions it generated. I could never get tired of explaining what an arsehole Ned Stark really was.
I actually liked S7 for the most part, I think it's worth a look. Although, the last second saves started to get a little ridiculous at this point.
In my opinion, S6 was very good and maybe one of the best seasons of the entire show. I'm probably in the minority on this though. S3 and S4 will always be considered as perhaps the two best seasons with S2, S5 and S8 being the weakest. But I really liked S2-EP9 though. The battle of black water bay was epic.
I didn't like seeing Tyrion with a beard to start season 5 or whatever season/episode it was... it took away from his character. I liked looking at the expressions on his face and the beard killed it and made his character less appealing.
And yeah, Tywin is a great character. Maybe one of my all time favorite bad guys, if you can call him that. He had some great lines in this show too. Charles Dance was perfect for that role. It wouldn't have bothered me if he ended up on the throne at the end. And he probably would have been if Tyrion doesn't kill him.
Cersei is a mixed bag for me. She had some charisma and was quite attractive but her snooty behavior made her seem like such a bitch. But still a very good character in the GoT world.
The one I'm sure everybody loved to hate was Joffrey. But to be honest, Jack Gleeson played that role so well that I started to kind of like Joffrey before he got killed. However, the one I really hated with a passion is Ramsey Bolton. The most satisfying beat down of all time is when he finally gets his long over-due ass kicking. That's probably why I like S6 so much.
|
|
|
Post by bluerisk on Jul 9, 2022 23:18:32 GMT
How in the seven Hells can anyone like Stannis? The prick barbecued his own daughter. He’s a slight step from Ramsey and Joffrey. I totally root for Stannis in the books, but I also believe book Stannis would never burn his daughter alive.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 10, 2022 2:00:38 GMT
How in the seven Hells can anyone like Stannis? The prick barbecued his own daughter. He’s a slight step from Ramsey and Joffrey. I totally root for Stannis in the books, but I also believe book Stannis would never burn his daughter alive. The man has been going to war and killing people without any necessity from the start but dumbshits only disliked him after he sacrificed a character they liked. He is just a Ned Stark taken further. Stannis is disgusting in both versions, book and show.
|
|
|
Post by stickman38 on Jul 11, 2022 1:27:24 GMT
But at least Martin did say in a recent interview that the book ending will be different than the TV show. I think that's good, but I honestly didn't mind the ending that much. Apparently, that ending did piss a lot of people off... haha.. I've even heard stories that people were naming their kids after Deanerys. damn, that's funny. I didn't see that interview. Of course there will have to be some difference, the books being so much more complex, but there is no doubt in my mind that the main fates and events will be the same. Daenerys was always meant to end up at the main villain destroying a city Dresden-style. It was basically announced right after her brother's death when it is implied that "she is the dragon". Dragons have been the destructive monsters in every mythology in the last 10000 years. Idiots were upset because they did not see it coming…
One other thing that I didn't like about the ending is the last ten minutes of the final episode is very similar to what happened at the end of LOTR:ROTK. Not sure if you've seen LOTR:Return Of the King but its really almost identical.
If you've seen ROTK you might go ahead and watch the last 10 or 15 minutes of the final episode. It's kind of funny.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 11, 2022 5:46:06 GMT
One other thing that I didn't like about the ending is the last ten minutes of the final episode is very similar to what happened at the end of LOTR:ROTK. Not sure if you've seen LOTR:Return Of the King but its really almost identical.
The ending of Lord Of The Rings was so drawn out it felt like it was taking half the final film. I see how GoT wanted to please the fandom by offering closure on all the beloved characters. Indeed, the whole series past S4 can be analysed in terms of immediate intended effect on the audience taking over plot consistency. The writers played with the audience like a cat with a mouse, to the point of pissing it off on purpose: Jon not petting Ghost when leaving Winterfell was such an example. It was all about "breaking the Internet", which had been the recipe for success from the Red Wedding on. The real issue about the ending is that it is as nonsensical as everything else. Tyrion proposes a king to unite the place and the first thing that happens is that one of the kingdoms secedes
|
|