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Post by Huxley on Oct 7, 2019 10:27:56 GMT
Same as you have. It's faith. I claim to believe there is someone that watches over me. He's done a good job too. Yes He looks after me too. Yesterday the traffic lights turned green, twice!, just as I approached, so no waiting. Then I found my favourite tie down the back of the sofa, when I thought it had gone for good. Then I spotted a buxom barmaid and just knew God intended her for my partner. And, all day, I did not die of plague or suffer a heart attack, even though others do. This all took faith, for otherwise I might think the mover and shaper of worlds and galaxies might have better things to do and I was just being self-centred in attributing special attention. Truly He moves in mysterious ways. Allelujah! I think that's great. I'm so happy for you and your partner. See everything worked out.
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 7, 2019 10:34:16 GMT
I forget the person whose name is associated with this wager That would be Blaise Pascal
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 7, 2019 11:12:36 GMT
The observation here is that, unless one is a deist or pantheist, then the danger is in believing in the wrong god. It seems to me that the wrath of a god not chosen is just as bad for the individual when either through atheism, apostasy, or infidelism. Given the number of deities which have been followed in the past then choosing, say Islam, or Christianity over the rest (most of which have similar claims of omnipotence and as First Mover etc) once one removes the predisposition to follow one's culture, can be seen as just another Argument from Popularity. Or to put it another way: if you don't know there is a god, then it is even less likely you can tell between them. In Pascal's defence, the wager was part of a much larger body of work (collected posthumously as The Pensées) where he believed he had already demonstrated Christianity as preferable to alternative religions. Of course, these demonstrations themselves are a bit dubious. William James' take on the criticism you make was interesting. He agreed with the criticism, but argued that since being saved would likely require genuine belief (as opposed to saying you believed when you didn't really), only those religions we can actually will ourselves to believe in can realistically be considered in the wager. So let's say there are three religions with mutually exclusive beliefs A, B and C where belief is the route to salvation (though there are other religions aside from these three and indeed hypothetical Gods that no-one currently worships). And four people considering the wager, Diane, Edgar, Florence and Gerard: Diane feels she couldn't bring herself to believe in any religion. James would therefore say she should not make the wager. Edgar feels he could bring himself to believe in Religion B, but not A, C or any other religion. James would say Edgar should make the wager in regards Religion B. Florence feels she could bring herself to believe in Religions A, B or C but not any other religion. James would say she should make the wager as regards believing in one of the three religions, but the wager couldn't tell her which one to go for. Gerard on the other hand is very open to every religion going including hypothetical religions where the God(s) in question perversely damn you for believing in them and save you for not believing in them. The wager would then be fairly useless to someone like Gerard. Gerards are probably pretty rare however.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Oct 7, 2019 17:30:46 GMT
There is evidence for those who can see it... Those who can see it have been previously brainwashed into how to interpret the evidence. You're Catholic. Do you believe the evidence that God gave Joseph Smith plates that he found in 1823. Of course not, you only accept the "evidence" that conforms to your predetermined Catholic conclusions. This was an event that was predicted. An estimated seventy thousand made a pilgrimage to Fatima expecting to see a miracle. Where are the photographs? Thousands of people and no photographs. All the photographs appearing in newspapers show people looking up at the sky. For all I know, they were looking at a cloud shaped like a unicorn. (and if there were a cloud shaped like a unicorn, you would probably interpret it as (A) a miracle and (B) proof that unicorns were real.) I would expect that at least half to witness the miracle. Where are thirty thousand written testimonials? If the sun danced across the sky, was it witnessed by anyone in the next town? Was it witnessed by anyone standing in the next field? Nobody in Paris saw the sun dance. Personally, I believe it was a weather anomaly which caused weird optics. Those that were predisposed to think it a miracle would interpret it as such. No, it's right on point. You have faith in Jesus just because you have been told to believe. I had faith in Santa because I was told to believe. I had faith in the Tooth Fairy because I was told to believe. How is this different? As for the Thomas Aquinas quote that you use so much, you have to remember that his "interpretation" was not unbiased. After all, he was a religious figure whose goal was for you to believe what he was preaching. He made the quote in his own self-interest.
And "graham" makes a good point: If a Muslim has faith in Islam, is that a false faith whereas your faith in Jesus is the one, true faith?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 7, 2019 19:01:46 GMT
Yes He looks after me too. Yesterday the traffic lights turned green, twice!, just as I approached, so no waiting. Then I found my favourite tie down the back of the sofa, when I thought it had gone for good. Then I spotted a buxom barmaid and just knew God intended her for my partner. And, all day, I did not die of plague or suffer a heart attack, even though others do. This all took faith, for otherwise I might think the mover and shaper of worlds and galaxies might have better things to do and I was just being self-centred in attributing special attention. Truly He moves in mysterious ways. Allelujah! I think that's great. I'm so happy for you and your partner. See everything worked out. Alas my faith was unjustified. I have since learnt that I have a traffic ticket, my tie has been eaten by moths and, after a misunderstanding, the barmaid slapped my face. However God has now made her younger sister known to me. I'm still clear of the plague and a coronary though. Mysteriouser and mysteriouser! Should I pray some more or do the last ones still count?
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Post by Huxley on Oct 7, 2019 19:29:33 GMT
Not bad, I'm becoming a fan.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 7, 2019 20:20:59 GMT
Not bad, I'm becoming a fan. Now I have faith you are not being sarcastic.
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Post by Huxley on Oct 7, 2019 20:26:11 GMT
Not bad, I'm becoming a fan. Now I have faith you are not being sarcastic. Thank you.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 7, 2019 22:51:58 GMT
Now I have faith you are not being sarcastic. Thank you. Faith, it seems, can be wrong.
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