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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 17, 2019 18:08:07 GMT
No matter how much time has passed since the first time I've watched this episode, or potentially any additional viewing, I still hate this episode. There's just no two ways about it, this episode should never have existed; and it actually kind of astounds me Manny Coto cited this and Cogenitor as two episodes he especially enjoyed, seeing how bad they were, and how good his episodes and the series overall under his guidance were - I have difficulty reconciling the seeming disparity, but different tastes for different people, I suppose.
The most glaring issue I have with this episode is the very foundational premise, that debris from the Borg sphere destroyed in the past by the Enterprise E in First Contact, made it's way to Earth in such intact condition as to contain several drone who barely a had a scratch on them; and the worst that happened was that they received the Captain America treatment of being frozen only to awake nearly a century later, again, with no apparent loss of function. Forget reentry, forget the physical impact of from from orbit and crashing to the ground at terminal velocity - the sphere was destroyed; and presumably in the course of that destruction, the sphere's core would have breached - and whether they too use anti-matter like other warp capable vessels or some other method to propel their ships, the explosion would arguably should still be on par with an anti-matter containment breach and subsequent explosion of the core. How could anything still on board the sphere - and I repeat, still on board the sphere - manage to survive the sorts of destructive force intact?
The advanced drone One narrowly managed to survive the destruction of a Borg vessel, and that was arguably because of his advanced technologies; the Voyager crew didn't expect to find him after the Borg ship's destruction. And even then, he was mortally injured. If numerous drones can survive the destruction of the ships completely unscathed, for one thing, Picard and his crew are incompetent for not searching for any possible traces of Borg, to remove any remnants that could still pose a threat, let alone contamination to the timeline if found, even if inert. But more importantly, it just makes them nigh-invulnerable; if they can survive the destruction of their ship, reentry through a planet's atmosphere and the subsequent impact, there shouldn't be anything that can actually kill them.
Then there's Phlox's quasi-assimilation. They seemed to hint in a throw away piece of dialog that the assimilation process was slowed on account of his Denobulan biology, but that's arguably a pretty weak excuse for giving him lots and lots of time to come up with a treatment for a convenient himself.
The Borg beginning to assimilate the NX-01 bordered on magic - a drone injects some nanoprobes into an access panel and within a second the entire layout of the panel inexplicably morphs into Borg technology. And I can't help but think at this point, where is the point of no return here? Even once the drones are gone, there's no reason the changes made to the ship to revert back to the way they were. Trip does something ambiguous to disconnect the modifications, but the components are still going to be there - components that the NX-01's crew would have no comprehension of. But just as importantly, the nanoprobes that created that technology would still be present; and Borg technology is shown to regenerate itself.
The cherry on top of this turd sundae of an episode was how quick and effortless the resolution was - Reed and Archer set some bombs, Trip disconnects the Borg tech on the Enterprise and while the transport is exploding, the Borg on Enterprise inexplicably beam away. I had to rewind and watch it again to see if there was any explanation why they were beaming away or if Enterprise beamed the Borg away, but it was definitely a Borg transport beam; and seeing as how the transport ship was seconds away from being destroyed, and the Borg on the Enterprise were not being directly threatened, there was absolutely no reason for them to leave Enterprise, rather than assimilating this ship and crew to make up for the loss of the other ship.
It's just a dumb episode.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Nov 4, 2019 5:29:11 GMT
No matter how much time has passed since the first time I've watched this episode, or potentially any additional viewing, I still hate this episode. There's just no two ways about it, this episode should never have existed; and it actually kind of astounds me Manny Coto cited this and Cogenitor as two episodes he especially enjoyed, seeing how bad they were, and how good his episodes and the series overall under his guidance were - I have difficulty reconciling the seeming disparity, but different tastes for different people, I suppose. The most glaring issue I have with this episode is the very foundational premise, that debris from the Borg sphere destroyed in the past by the Enterprise E in First Contact, made it's way to Earth in such intact condition as to contain several drone who barely a had a scratch on them; and the worst that happened was that they received the Captain America treatment of being frozen only to awake nearly a century later, again, with no apparent loss of function. Forget reentry, forget the physical impact of from from orbit and crashing to the ground at terminal velocity - the sphere was destroyed; and presumably in the course of that destruction, the sphere's core would have breached - and whether they too use anti-matter like other warp capable vessels or some other method to propel their ships, the explosion would arguably should still be on par with an anti-matter containment breach and subsequent explosion of the core. How could anything still on board the sphere - and I repeat, still on board the sphere - manage to survive the sorts of destructive force intact? The advanced drone One narrowly managed to survive the destruction of a Borg vessel, and that was arguably because of his advanced technologies; the Voyager crew didn't expect to find him after the Borg ship's destruction. And even then, he was mortally injured. If numerous drones can survive the destruction of the ships completely unscathed, for one thing, Picard and his crew are incompetent for not searching for any possible traces of Borg, to remove any remnants that could still pose a threat, let alone contamination to the timeline if found, even if inert. But more importantly, it just makes them nigh-invulnerable; if they can survive the destruction of their ship, reentry through a planet's atmosphere and the subsequent impact, there shouldn't be anything that can actually kill them. Then there's Phlox's quasi-assimilation. They seemed to hint in a throw away piece of dialog that the assimilation process was slowed on account of his Denobulan biology, but that's arguably a pretty weak excuse for giving him lots and lots of time to come up with a treatment for a convenient himself. The Borg beginning to assimilate the NX-01 bordered on magic - a drone injects some nanoprobes into an access panel and within a second the entire layout of the panel inexplicably morphs into Borg technology. And I can't help but think at this point, where is the point of no return here? Even once the drones are gone, there's no reason the changes made to the ship to revert back to the way they were. Trip does something ambiguous to disconnect the modifications, but the components are still going to be there - components that the NX-01's crew would have no comprehension of. But just as importantly, the nanoprobes that created that technology would still be present; and Borg technology is shown to regenerate itself. The cherry on top of this turd sundae of an episode was how quick and effortless the resolution was - Reed and Archer set some bombs, Trip disconnects the Borg tech on the Enterprise and while the transport is exploding, the Borg on Enterprise inexplicably beam away. I had to rewind and watch it again to see if there was any explanation why they were beaming away or if Enterprise beamed the Borg away, but it was definitely a Borg transport beam; and seeing as how the transport ship was seconds away from being destroyed, and the Borg on the Enterprise were not being directly threatened, there was absolutely no reason for them to leave Enterprise, rather than assimilating this ship and crew to make up for the loss of the other ship. It's just a dumb episode. I actually liked the ep, and quite a bit after my second viewing a decade later. It starts like a horror movie, then the normal characters are brought in, and tension is further increase by the Doctor's infection. As to why they were more interested in saving the shuttle, it had been heavily modified, and was either about to warp or send a message to the Borg.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 4, 2019 14:50:21 GMT
I actually liked the ep, and quite a bit after my second viewing a decade later. It starts like a horror movie, then the normal characters are brought in, and tension is further increase by the Doctor's infection. I just don't think any of those elements work for me, because there's virtually no threat of the Borg succeeding without a massive contradiction to established canon by that point. They could never progress very far, the main characters could never learn who or what they were; and I found very little tension in Phlox being quasi-assimilated, because obviously he wasn't going anywhere and it all seemed very convenient that, unlike others we've seen be assimilated where the process is almost instantaneous, Phlox had the luxury of walking around seemingly fine for hours and came up with an assimilation cure that was apparently lost to the ages. Even taking into consideration that records couldn't explicitly correlate his treatment with "the Borg," there should be some indication of his method of treating himself for some unknown nano-cybernetic affliction; which presumably medical professionals, especially the Voyager EMH, could have cross referenced as at least being similar enough to encounters with Borg assimilation to explore similar methods of treatment and defense, if not outright deducing that the unknown cybernetic hostiles in the 22nd century and the Borg were in fact one in the same. I have no idea what you mean by this part. I don't see any reference in my part to a shuttle.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Nov 4, 2019 17:22:20 GMT
I actually liked the ep, and quite a bit after my second viewing a decade later. It starts like a horror movie, then the normal characters are brought in, and tension is further increase by the Doctor's infection. I just don't think any of those elements work for me, because there's virtually no threat of the Borg succeeding without a massive contradiction to established canon by that point. They could never progress very far, the main characters could never learn who or what they were; and I found very little tension in Phlox being quasi-assimilated, because obviously he wasn't going anywhere and it all seemed very convenient that, unlike others we've seen be assimilated where the process is almost instantaneous, Phlox had the luxury of walking around seemingly fine for hours and came up with an assimilation cure that was apparently lost to the ages. Even taking into consideration that records couldn't explicitly correlate his treatment with "the Borg," there should be some indication of his method of treating himself for some unknown nano-cybernetic affliction; which presumably medical professionals, especially the Voyager EMH, could have cross referenced as at least being similar enough to encounters with Borg assimilation to explore similar methods of treatment and defense, if not outright deducing that the unknown cybernetic hostiles in the 22nd century and the Borg were in fact one in the same. I have no idea what you mean by this part. I don't see any reference in my part to a shuttle. Just rewatch the ep because its pretty obvious you weren't following it.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 4, 2019 17:33:50 GMT
I literally watched it a matter of days ago; and wrote my original post within minutes of watching it, in direct response to watching it. If the episode went over anyone's head, it's clearly you.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Nov 4, 2019 18:02:13 GMT
I literally watched it a matter of days ago; and wrote my original post within minutes of watching it, in direct response to watching it. If the episode went over anyone's head, it's clearly you. Nope, I followed it, you didn't.
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Post by MCDemuth on Nov 4, 2019 20:20:17 GMT
without a massive contradiction to established canon by that point. LOL! You've got to be kidding! In the first Borg episode: "Q Who", the Borg did not assimilate humans, or use Nanoprobes. Things were constantly changing as the Borg were developed over the years throughout the entire Franchise. Take "Seven Of Nine" for example... She was a Borg for 18 years, which means that she was assimilated before the USS Enterprise D was even launched! If anything, this episode tries to help cannon: if not outright deducing that the unknown cybernetic hostiles in the 22nd century and the Borg were in fact one in the same. 1.) Star Trek: First Contact. 2063 - The Borg Sphere is mostly destroyed and some Borg and Debris land at the Pole. 2.) Enterprise: Regeneration. 2153? - Starfleet engages Cybernetic Creatures who send a message to the Delta Quadrant which will take about two hundred years to get there. 3.) Star Trek Generations - The Enterprise B rescues Guinan & Dr. Soren from the Nexus shortly after their homeworld is destroyed by "The Borg" 4.) Seven's parents go looking for "The Borg" and are assimilated. 5.) TNG - The Enterprise D - crew try to figure out what has happened to outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone and discover there is some new threat to the Alpha Quadrant. 6.) TNG - "Q Who" - Sends the Enterprise several light years away, where they are finally, formally introduced to "The Borg", a cybernetic race... and discover, that it was the Borg, that were destroying outposts along the Neutral Zone... Approximately 200 years later, after Regeneration. 7.) The Borg attempt the Assimilation of Humanity, by assimilating Picard into Locutus which then causes the massacre at "Wolf 359" ETC. Star Trek: First Contact - The Borg travel back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane's warp flight. Seven of Nine is rescued from the Collective. As for Voyager's EMH, not knowing about Phlox's research... Since that was 200 years earlier, it probably didn't even occur to the Doctor, to look that up in the history books... Even if it was somehow filled under a database called "The Borg".
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 4, 2019 21:31:02 GMT
without a massive contradiction to established canon by that point. LOL! You've got to be kidding! Things were constantly changing as the Borg were developed over the years throughout the entire Franchise. Well sure, things sounds stupid when you take words out of context. My exact statement was: Meaning that in order for the writers not to be total morons and blow to hell the idea that the existence of the Borg wasn't widely known before Picard's encounter (i.e. "contradiction to established canon"), nothing of consequence could actually occur. To anyone's knowledge - characters like Picard or even Guinan not knowing that they assimilated other beings doesn't strictly make it a contradiction; it just means they didn't know. Guinan later being surprised that they did this doesn't mean she lied or that they broke continuity. If she had previously said "I've been aboard their ships, I've seen them simply execute the people of the worlds they conquered and jettison the bodies into space; and that's all they ever did with people" - that'd be one things. But seeing as how she was among those of her people who managed to escape the Borg only saw the larger destructive elements, perhaps seeing ships being destroyed when they tried to resist; and wouldn't see things like individuals being brought on board to be assimilated, or drones directly invading her homeworld to assimilate those who hadn't even managed to leave the surface. And that's assuming she was even there; I want to say in some episode she might have mentioned being off-world when the Borg attack, which would make any preconceived notions she had about the Borg as unverified, secondhand knowledge, at least some of which was later proven wrong. (i.e. that they assimilate the biological as well as technological.) There are a variety of ways this can be retconned just by what was mentioned on the show; particularly the fact that Anika's parents were searching for them based largely on rumors and partially collected information. He's a walking medical database; if a Starfleet Doctor made a record of something, especially a life saving treatment, it would ostensibly be available to him. And it wouldn't have to be label something so overt as "Borg Cure, Ask Me How" - any competent doctor researching how to stem the infiltration of cybernetic systems attacking a biological patient would cross-referenced any records related to anything even remotely similar and probably a few things that might otherwise seem unrelated, in an effort to find some possible avenues for treatment in the particular situation they're faced with. It's arguably one of the first things any Starfleet doctor should come across during any basic research of past medical techniques that could aid in the development of treatment or prevention of Borg assimilation. Such records or research don't have to be about the thing they're trying to address for it to be relevant; a treatment that worked some other similar thing can and often has been useful in developing treatment for something else. For that matter, they shouldn't have even needed to see Phlox's report on his own treatment, seeing as he managed to pull it out of thin air based on his own basic, 22nd century knowledge of medicine. But as soon as anyone dd found his report, any reasonable person who reads it would be 90% certain it was about the Borg, even without them being expressly identified.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 3:23:56 GMT
Also have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, decent episode by Enterprise standards. But the Borg have no business being around the Federation at this point. It's just dumb.
Same with the Ferengi episode.
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Post by azzajones on Nov 16, 2019 3:14:29 GMT
Another someone who has mixed feelings on this ep. I consider this ep to be taking place in an altered timeline created by First Contact and this didn't happen originally - hell the whole of Enterprise seems to be taking place in an altered timeline because of this Temporal Cold War. Probably my biggest issue is that in all previous circumstances when drones are disconnected from the Collective their individuality re-asserts itself, however this didn't happen to the drones in this ep and they just went about assimilating people.
I'm pretty sure in Q Who, Guinan says she wasn't there when the Borg attacked her planet.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Jan 10, 2020 8:09:21 GMT
Another someone who has mixed feelings on this ep. I consider this ep to be taking place in an altered timeline created by First Contact and this didn't happen originally - hell the whole of Enterprise seems to be taking place in an altered timeline because of this Temporal Cold War. Probably my biggest issue is that in all previous circumstances when drones are disconnected from the Collective their individuality re-asserts itself, however this didn't happen to the drones in this ep and they just went about assimilating people. I'm pretty sure in Q Who, Guinan says she wasn't there when the Borg attacked her planet. "Probably my biggest issue is that in all previous circumstances when drones are disconnected from the Collective their individuality re-asserts itself, however this didn't happen to the drones in this ep and they just went about assimilating people." We have 2 examples of this but one only happen because the Enterprise interfered. Realistically, it shouldn't be that easy. If you were designing such mind controlled drones, you would want them better conditioned than that.
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