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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 16:28:11 GMT
Fat Thor...who was dealing with depression and in turn over indulged in food and booze, appeared in Guardians Of The Galaxy back in the 90s That doesnt cover it--because they were saying how they were faithful to the comics-yet they didnt even show his human doctor side first. Another argument used is that they have to treat general audiences differently than comic fans when making movies--why would fat Thor be more agreeable to the public? While we are at it--while would a half Palestinian Valkyrie be more agreeable to the public than a scandanavian blonde type? That's a really hard sell to believe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 16:51:21 GMT
Fat Thor...who was dealing with depression and in turn over indulged in food and booze, appeared in Guardians Of The Galaxy back in the 90s That doesnt cover it--because they were saying how they were faithful to the comics-yet they didnt even show his human doctor side first. Another argument used is that they have to treat general audiences differently than comic fans when making movies--why would fat Thor be more agreeable to the public? While we are at it--while would a half Palestinian Valkyrie be more agreeable to the public than a scandanavian blonde type? That's a really hard sell to believe.
Depends on who's saying. I've never said it. I could count the comic books I've read start to finish on one hand. I'll take most people's word for it whether or not they're faithful to the source material, but I don't care about that.
Even right now, looking at Fat Thor in that picture, I'd have never known Thor actually went fat in the comics. So right as we speak, I'm learning the film was more faithful to the material than I thought. Does it change the movie for me now after the fact? Personally, not at all.
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Post by sostie on Oct 28, 2019 17:11:36 GMT
Fat Thor...who was dealing with depression and in turn over indulged in food and booze, appeared in Guardians Of The Galaxy back in the 90s That doesnt cover it--because they were saying how they were faithful to the comics-yet
Who is they? Because a storyline involving a Thor stripped of his powers and banished to Earth probably made more sense in a film than a storyline set over years inserted into his origin movie. So you actually don't care that it wasn't reflective of the comics? Well it seems he was quite agreeable with a lot of the public In the comics Asgardians are from another planet/demension and over years visit Norway, which influenced the Norse myths. They were visited by some Asgardians, not all Asgardians. Why can't Asgard be racially diverse? They are scandinavian blonde type in Norse Myth, but the comics deal with a different source of the myth.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 17:14:34 GMT
Various comic-reading movie reviewers who were pouring praise on Iron Man and the MCU. They were very selective in their use of faithfulness obviously. Nick Fury and the gatekeeper of Asgard proved to be a problem to their theory of faithfulness.
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Post by sostie on Oct 28, 2019 19:20:56 GMT
Various comic-reading movie reviewers who were pouring praise on Iron Man and the MCU. They were very selective in their use of faithfulness obviously. Nick Fury and the gatekeeper of Asgard proved to be a problem to their theory of faithfulness.
Any comic reader would know Fury wouldn't be a problem at all
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 19:56:37 GMT
Any comic reader would know Fury wouldn't be a problem at all The same way it would be ok if the Black Panther was Norwegian.
The fact is they changed it for political reasons, not aesthetics.
But those worried about appearing unPC said it was fine--yet they also would say how faithful the movie was to Iron Man's origin. Just a double standard.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 20:33:29 GMT
Any comic reader would know Fury wouldn't be a problem at all The same way it would be ok if the Black Panther was Norwegian.
The fact is they changed it for political reasons, not aesthetics.
But those worried about appearing unPC said it was fine--yet they also would say how faithful the movie was to Iron Man's origin. Just a double standard.
If Black Panther were a Norwegian white guy, it would make it a lot more difficult to be King of Wakanda. Nick Fury's character didn't change at all when Sam Jackson was cast. Hollywood's a dog eat dog world. Samuel L Jackson would have either been sought for the role, outclassed everyone else auditioning for the role, or has a wicked agent (or a combo of any of the above). Nick Fury didn't just become black, he became Samuel L Jackson. That's the difference.
Why would that be license to tamper with the casting of a black actor to play Black Panther? That would be politics. Retaliatory politics to be more specific, an eye for an eye that was never lost. In theory, he could be cast as someone else. But why? Really think about why. Is it likely to sell more tickets to cast the king of an African nation in a comic books movie as some Nordic guy? Is it likely to be a better result, better story? I think it defeats the purpose of the character. And for what purpose? Torpedo the production because you think you're owed a race swapped Black Panther because they cast Samuel L Jackson as Fury? It's rubbish, man. Nonsense. It's not thinking clearly, or at best it's thinking more punitively than constructively. Being black is actually relevant to his character. His name is Black Panther. Nick Fury's name isn't Black Nick Fury.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 20:48:49 GMT
If Black Panther were a Norwegian white guy, it would make it a lot more difficult to be King of Wakanda.
Why? It's fantasy. There was an African gatekeeper to Asgard so why couldn't there be Norwegian-looking people in Wakanda?
It's just a double standard.
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Post by sostie on Oct 28, 2019 20:54:19 GMT
Any comic reader would know Fury wouldn't be a problem at all The same way it would be ok if the Black Panther was Norwegian.
The fact is they changed it for political reasons, not aesthetics.
But those worried about appearing unPC said it was fine--yet they also would say how faithful the movie was to Iron Man's origin. Just a double standard.
It's not the same at all. Nick Fury has been black in the Ultimate Universe since 2001. The character was based on and drawn to look like Samuel L Jackson. They even joke in the comic about him looking like SLJ
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 20:57:59 GMT
It's not the same at all. Nick Fury has been black in the Ultimate Universe since 2001. The character was based on and drawn to look like Samuel L Jackson. They even joke in the comic about him looking like SLJ And how long has Heimdall been black in the comics?
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Post by Vassaggo on Oct 28, 2019 21:12:05 GMT
Some character's race is important because part of the characterization is based on what a Black/White/Asian/etc would go through in life or how they interact with other people. Other characters is not important to the story or the character.
Case in point, lets use Stephen King.
Red from the Shawshank Redemption was an Irish Person in the Novella. In the movie they cast Morgan Freeman. Did Red being black in the movies change anything other than the race? No. There was nothing in Red's characterization, story, or interactions that being black nor white effected.
Now, Roland in the Dark Tower in the book is white. In the movie they made him Black casting Idris Elba. In the first movie that wouldn't have mattered much. They aren't continuing with the movie version now, but if they did you would have been introduced the Multiple Personality Character of Odetta Holmes/Detta Walker. Odetta Holmes side of her personality is a rich black lady from the 1960's of our world. Freedom Rider/Civil Rights activist. The other side of her personality Detta Walker is a racist, violent, anti social thief. Detta hates Roland because he is a figure of authority and more importantly a white man. In the process of the story Detta and Odetta's personality is merged in to Sussanah Dean. She no longer has racists inclination after that, but part of her is always resentful to a degree to Roland because the Detta walker streak in her personality is still buried deep. This adversarial relationship is tempered with her gratitude to him bringing her to his world where she met her Husband Eddie Dean (also a white dude). Making Roland black would completely screw up this dynamic. In this case changing the race changes the story, character, and interactions.
This isn't (pardon the pun) a black and white situation. There are grey areas. You can't say changing all character's race is wrong or right. There is nuance and subtly to the situations.
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Post by sostie on Oct 28, 2019 21:34:27 GMT
It's not the same at all. Nick Fury has been black in the Ultimate Universe since 2001. The character was based on and drawn to look like Samuel L Jackson. They even joke in the comic about him looking like SLJ And how long has Heimdall been black in the comics?
Never was and couldn't give a shit - not a major character and Asgardians don't have to be "Scandinavian" looking. Why do you care? If you didn't know about Nick Fury being black you obviously know nothing about the comics and not care
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 21:44:04 GMT
Never was and couldn't give a shit - not a major character and Asgardians don't have to be "Scandinavian" looking. Why do you care? If you didn't know about Nick Fury being black you obviously know nothing about the comics and not care You were saying that Marvel was following the comics-and yet here was a character who was not kept faithful. Even more of a case with Valkyrie since she was so often used as a trademark image.
The claim they used for changing her race was such a poor lie--they have no integrity but also not much smarts--they said she gave the best screen test--but why was someone not fitting the specifications of the character being auditioned? They didn't explain that.
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Post by sostie on Oct 28, 2019 22:07:56 GMT
Never was and couldn't give a shit - not a major character and Asgardians don't have to be "Scandinavian" looking. Why do you care? If you didn't know about Nick Fury being black you obviously know nothing about the comics and not care You were saying that Marvel was following the comics-and yet here was a character who was not kept faithful. Even more of a case with Valkyrie since she was so often used as a trademark image.
The claim they used for changing her race was such a poor lie--they have no integrity but also not much smarts--they said she gave the best screen test--but why was someone not fitting the specifications of the character being auditioned? They didn't explain that.
No...you said Thor wasn't fat in the comics...I showed you he was. You said Nick Fury's race was changed by the MCU for political reasons...I explained that it wasn't You seemed to think Asgardian's had to be Scandinavian looking I explained why they did not. I explained where they did when you said they didn't, and why it wasn't important in the cases they had. I made no statement that they were following the comics as a whole. Do you have the same issue with non-MCU movies changing the characters race with no comic book precedent? Dark Knight series, X-Men, F4, DCEU etc?
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 28, 2019 22:53:40 GMT
No...you said Thor wasn't fat in the comics...I showed you he was. You said Nick Fury's race was changed by the MCU for political reasons...I explained that it wasn't It was changed for political reasons in the comics. It was just slower because in the 1960s and 70s if they wanted to get readers they had to show heroic white men and women (many with blonde hair) since the audience was mostly white. But corporations with unlimited money and completely devout globalists don't care how obvious their political messages are. Captain America was neurotic by 1968. That was politics. It was just somewhat milder (actually, it was often very overt--most kids just looked at the pictures).
Whatever the case, for the movies, Heimdall and Valkyrie were politics-driven decisions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 3:55:08 GMT
If Black Panther were a Norwegian white guy, it would make it a lot more difficult to be King of Wakanda.
Why? It's fantasy. There was an African gatekeeper to Asgard so why couldn't there be Norwegian-looking people in Wakanda?
It's just a double standard. The double standard is selectively trotting out it's a fantasy. Yeah it's a fantasy, ergo Nick Fury can be Samuel L Jackson because and Black Panther can be closer to the source material.
However you slice it, there is no African gatekeeper in Asgard.
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Post by blockbusted on Oct 29, 2019 5:38:46 GMT
It was changed for political reasons in the comics. It was just slower because in the 1960s and 70s if they wanted to get readers they had to show heroic white men and women (many with blonde hair) since the audience was mostly white. But corporations with unlimited money and completely devout globalists don't care how obvious their political messages are. Captain America was neurotic by 1968. That was politics. It was just somewhat milder (actually, it was often very overt--most kids just looked at the pictures).
Whatever the case, for the movies, Heimdall and Valkyrie were politics-driven decisions.
How do you know it was political. Where you in the room when they decided to cast Idris Elba in the role? Maybe he was better actor than all the white guys. He doesn’t. Kenneth Branagh has a tendency to ignore ethnicity during the casting, and he has been like this way back since 1990s when he had Denzel Washington to play Don Pedro in ‘Much Ado About Nothing’, so chances are, he simply ignored the ethnicity during the casting of Heimdall as well.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 29, 2019 6:49:36 GMT
However you slice it, there is no African gatekeeper in Asgard.
Uh yeah-he ain't Scandanavian or even Anglo-Saxon. He is dark-skinned and not from the Norwegian sun. Could they have found an actor who looked the part? Yes. Ditto for Valkyrie.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 29, 2019 6:50:27 GMT
How do you know it was political. Where you in the room when they decided to cast Idris Elba in the role? Maybe he was better actor than all the white guys. Iger confirmed it by responding to Scorsese with "are you a racist?"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 7:02:42 GMT
However you slice it, there is no African gatekeeper in Asgard.
Uh yeah-he ain't Scandanavian or even Anglo-Saxon. He is dark-skinned and not from the Norwegian sun. Could they have found an actor who looked the part? Yes. Ditto for Valkyrie.
I didn't mean literally like Idris Elba's ethnicity. I mean he's Asgardian. Presumably, so is Valkyrie. It sounds redundant but if they're Asgardian, they ain't Scandinavian.
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