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Post by anthonyrocks on Oct 28, 2019 2:46:32 GMT
LOL! 
LOL, He even got an "IMPEACH TRUMP" Banner as well!
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Post by sdrew13163 on Oct 28, 2019 3:51:35 GMT
How will he ever recover? This has to be the first time he’s faced hostility!
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Post by tristramshandy on Oct 28, 2019 4:35:44 GMT
A friend of mine from college was at the game tonight and said it was pretty noticeable in the park that the boos outnumbered the cheers (and my friend was in the Young Republicans club at our college).
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Post by tristramshandy on Oct 28, 2019 4:38:49 GMT
How will he ever recover? This has to be the first time he’s faced hostility! I'm sure we'll get a twitter torrent either about how everybody cheered him or that the boos are all part of a conspiracy. It's hardly like baseball fans are a bunch of liberals either - - Nascar might be more his crowd, though, apparently.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Oct 28, 2019 4:52:11 GMT
How will he ever recover? This has to be the first time he’s faced hostility! I'm sure we'll get a twitter torrent either about how everybody cheered him or that the boos are all part of a conspiracy. It's hardly like baseball fans are a bunch of liberals either - - Nascar might be more his crowd, though, apparently. The game was in DC...probably one of the most overtly liberal places in the nation. It’s not exactly shocking. |
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Post by WarrenPeace on Oct 28, 2019 6:59:27 GMT
LOL!
LOL, He even got an "IMPEACH TRUMP" Banner as well!
That is a thing of beauty. Thank you for posting this so I could see how the fans reacted to their Liar in Chief.
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Post by millar70 on Oct 28, 2019 8:14:31 GMT
So Trump's getting booed in Washington D.C.?
Tells me he's doing his job well.
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Post by DSDSquared on Oct 28, 2019 11:41:57 GMT
Who cares? The man is doing a good job. Prove me wrong. You can't. This irrational hatred towards the man is hilarious at times.
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Post by tristramshandy on Oct 28, 2019 12:55:23 GMT
Who cares? The man is doing a good job. Prove me wrong. You can't. This irrational hatred towards the man is hilarious at times. The man is doing a bad job. Prove me wrong. You can't.
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Post by tristramshandy on Oct 28, 2019 12:58:13 GMT
I'm sure we'll get a twitter torrent either about how everybody cheered him or that the boos are all part of a conspiracy. It's hardly like baseball fans are a bunch of liberals either - - Nascar might be more his crowd, though, apparently. The game was in DC...probably one of the most overtly liberal places in the nation. It’s not exactly shocking. The group of people who make DC Democratic aren't the same population that goes to Nationals games, though.
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Post by DSDSquared on Oct 28, 2019 13:24:02 GMT
Who cares? The man is doing a good job. Prove me wrong. You can't. This irrational hatred towards the man is hilarious at times. The man is doing a bad job. Prove me wrong. You can't. Easily. Even if you think he is not directly responsible, our foreign trade agreements have been improved dramatically under Trump. Our economy is statistically doing better than it ever has in our history. Unemployment is at record lows, the median income is higher than it has been in decades, the stock market has experience record highs, and more people are working than ever before. Trump was hard on Vietnam and South Korea and it was told to be a mistake. He ended up signing huge trade deals with both of them. His hard stance on China was mocked. He just signed an agriculture deal that brings billions back to our famers in the US. He has done everything in his power to keep all of his campaign promises, which is a rarity. I am just scratching the surface, but to say he has not done a good job is ignorant at best.
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Post by anthonyrocks on Oct 28, 2019 14:16:20 GMT
If Washington wins the World Series then I don't think that they will go to the White House to see Donald Trump.
If Houston wins the World Series then I definitely think that they will go to the White House to see Donald Trump (I remember that they did when they won it back in 2017).
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Post by klawrencio79 on Oct 28, 2019 14:23:22 GMT
The man is doing a bad job. Prove me wrong. You can't. Easily. Even if you think he is not directly responsible, our foreign trade agreements have been improved dramatically under Trump. Our economy is statistically doing better than it ever has in our history. Unemployment is at record lows, the median income is higher than it has been in decades, the stock market has experience record highs, and more people are working than ever before. Trump was hard on Vietnam and South Korea and it was told to be a mistake. He ended up signing huge trade deals with both of them. His hard stance on China was mocked. He just signed an agriculture deal that brings billions back to our famers in the US. He has done everything in his power to keep all of his campaign promises, which is a rarity. I am just scratching the surface, but to say he has not done a good job is ignorant at best. Gentlemen's pact - I like you, and I surmise that you feel the same about me, we generally respect each other so let's do what others fail to do and keep this civil. I have faith in us. This agricultural deal you mention is something Trump and his administration talked about, but senior commodities analysts in China have already denounced the $50b as being a headline and wholly unrealistic even if the pact were ratified as it would represent a 100% increase in spending, not to mention the fact that the deal is contingent on many other issues being resolved, none of which have been satisfied. So Trump grabs headlines, but there's nothing to actually back up what he said. He wasn't "mocked" for his stance on China, he was criticized for it. Until such time as there is an actual deal in place, consumers and the American farmer are going to be paying for this. As far as this being the "greatest economy the world has ever seen," which is Trump's line, there are obviously myriad ways to view that. Is the economy doing well? Absolutely. To deny that is to deny reality. But....what does it really mean when we say the economy is doing well? Unemployment being at record lows - technically, the 3.7% unemployment rate (as of September, 2019) is the lowest rate since 3.5% back in 1969. If you look at the rate of unemployment since 2008, the decrease in unemployment has remained rather steady so I don't see it as something Trump can take credit for, but still, it's a good thing. Median income? Yes, it's the highest it's ever been, coming in at $63,179 in 2018, a slight notch above 2017. Again, these rates have gone up steadily in the last 10 years since the recession, although I think it would be disingenuous to say Trump is causing the growth to stall - eventually the increases have to slow so I can't fault him for that. GDP? In July, 2019, the US bureau of Economic Analysis showed that GDP growth was 2.5% in 2018, certainly a fine number but pretty much in line with the previous 10 years. The White House, at the time, announced that the GDP had increased by 3%, saying that a 3% increase was the first time in more than a decade, which is a demonstrable lie as it hadn't hit that mark. Why lie to the public? The stock market - the greatest bellweather for Republican prognosticators. Trump has done what Dubya did and what Reagan did before him: cut corporate taxes and de-regulate the finance industry, which results in higher stock values and increased cash to the richest of the rich. Does this really help Americans on a day-to-day basis? No, it does not. The top 10% of the US in terms of wealth own 84% of the value of the stock market. The remaining 16% is distributed among people who will really never see a material benefit from the health stock market. In other words, it's basically a campaign slogan for something that benefits Trump, his donors and the wealthiest of Americans.
Now, obviously, having a healthy stock market is better than a weak one, but the idea that Trump is somehow this great harbinger of stock market success is silly when you consider that since he took office, the aggregate percentage rise in stock market value has been 25%, which is exactly the same rate of increase during Obama's first 2.5 years in office. Assuming the same trajectory, Trump won't be any better for stock market gains than his predecessor in terms of increased value. Again, not a bad thing, but to laud him and denigrate the other makes no sense when you look at the hard data. Their economic growth metrics are pretty similar.
Now, the biggest issues with Trump:
The deficit is spiraling out of control and the cash resulting from the corporate tax breaks were offset by increased spending and growing debt service payments. Remember the Tea Party? Remember how they claimed that the deficit was the single biggest threat to our country 10 years ago? Well, now those people are silent. Fiscal year 2019 ended with the largest deficit in 7 years and it's the first time since the early 1980s that the budget gap has widened for 4 straight years. The deficit is now $984b.
You talk about Trump's campaign promises, this is a HUGE one where he flat out lied to everyone and given that two additional spending bills were approved earlier this year, that deficit is only going up. Guess who is going to pay for that? The middle class. Under the Trump tax plan, while corporate rate decreases are in place (down 14%), the individual rates will actually sunset such that by 2025, individuals will be paying more in taxes than they were under the previous tax plan.
Trump expressly said "the wealthy won't benefit, the rich will not be gaining at all with this plan." In 2019, taxpayers who earn over $347,940 in income received nearly a 3% increase in after-tax income, by far the largest increase among the income tiers and with the corporate tax rates being slashed, people who own businesses can simply take advantage of the heavily decreased pass-through exposure, resulting in an ever greater windfall. The middle class have no such windfall and when their reduced tax rates will have expired, the rich will have numerous methods of avoiding paying taxes whereas the middle class and the poor wont.
We've talked about this in the past - rising deficit values and increased spending. It's going to be a huge problem. This isn't rooting for a recession and quite frankly, it infuriates me to no end when Tomi Lahren or whomever say that this is what the left is doing. Nobody wants a recession, but to simply point out that what the administration is doing is achieving short term gain with long term consequences is stating the obvious. You can't operate the country this way just like you can't operate a business this way.
Plus, when Trump publicly, on Twitter (see below) shits on his Fed Chief demanding further interest rate cuts, it's rather baffling. Cutting interest rates and providing for corporate welfare is what you do when the economy is bad. It's how you spur growth, capital investment, business formation, etc., by reducing the cost of borrowed funds and increasing cash flow vis-a-vis reduced tax exposure. When the economy is good, you simply enable the rich to engage in stock buy-backs, which is exactly what happened. Whatever marginal increase to wages occurred is dwarfed by the rich further enriching themselves.
Long story short, this is nothing more than a cash grab, one than you and I are going to have to pay for when the house of cards falls apart.
The tweeting. A lot of my Republican friends see this as harmless, the kind of thing that Fox News likes to point to as TDS when people on the left say how bad it is. When Trump belittles political opponents, the press and most importantly, our intelligence agencies and the FBI, publicly, on Twitter, like a 13 year old girl, it is rather harmful. He's basically undermining the very fabric of our government and encouraging people not to take them seriously. If the president doesn't have to cooperate with an FBI investigation or congressional subpoenas, why should anybody else? It hurts out standing in the world when he does it and hurts the ability of those institutions to do their jobs effectively.
The Constitution. When Trump publicly complains about the "fake emoluments clause," I scratch my head as to how ardent right wingers can stand idly by. The emoluments clause is not a liberal conspiracy and Trump 100% was going to violate it with his G7 stunt. Even Napolitano on Fox News pasted him for that one. This is just one example, among hundreds, where Trump just disregards the Constitution. I can probably spend all day providing examples of this.
Lastly, and this one is more of a non-substantive thing, but when you say that the hatred Trump gets is hilarious, I have a counter. Yes, sometimes it gets a bit out of hand, but to criticize Trump, to highlight his words and point out that what he says is simply untrue using hard facts, is not TDS. It's the job of analysts and journalists. To me, TDS is when a room full of church goers praise god for delivering Trump to them, to declare him as god's gift to humanity. When idiot Matt Gaetz the other day says that he loves Trump so much that he couldn't possibly love another president again, that's the real TDS.
Looking forward to engaging in a civil discourse with you, if anybody else wants to jump in, I request that you do the same.
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Post by masterofallgoons on Oct 28, 2019 14:41:04 GMT
Well said. You definitely highlighted and responded to things that I almost tried to, but in a more respectful and level headed way than I would have (which is why I was just gonna stay out of it), and touched on some things I didn't know as much about. The truth is that his administration (I have serious doubts about how involved he is in a lot of these policies) has gotten some things right and there are a lot of issues that we will have to see how they play out. But some of the things the right credits him for are just things he straight up lies about and claims praise over even when it's not reflecting any version of reality. The ramapnt nepotism, the dangerous and psychotic egomania, the flagrant and brazen corruption are also huge, massive problems. But part of the job of the presidency is to be a figurehead and be the face of the country and represent the nation to the world. There could be nobody worse for that aspect of the job. He's undeniably a laughing stock and an hourly embarrassment. Anyway, for all the nonsense on this thread, it's nice to see that at least two people are trying to be level headed, and actual people. Everything else on this thread is just caricature of the worst of people that always comes up with politics. So thanks for that, if nothing else.
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Post by DSDSquared on Oct 28, 2019 14:48:24 GMT
Easily. Even if you think he is not directly responsible, our foreign trade agreements have been improved dramatically under Trump. Our economy is statistically doing better than it ever has in our history. Unemployment is at record lows, the median income is higher than it has been in decades, the stock market has experience record highs, and more people are working than ever before. Trump was hard on Vietnam and South Korea and it was told to be a mistake. He ended up signing huge trade deals with both of them. His hard stance on China was mocked. He just signed an agriculture deal that brings billions back to our famers in the US. He has done everything in his power to keep all of his campaign promises, which is a rarity. I am just scratching the surface, but to say he has not done a good job is ignorant at best. Gentlemen's pact - I like you, and I surmise that you feel the same about me, we generally respect each other so let's do what others fail to do and keep this civil. I have faith in us. This agricultural deal you mention is something Trump and his administration talked about, but senior commodities analysts in China have already denounced the $50b as being a headline and wholly unrealistic even if the pact were ratified as it would represent a 100% increase in spending, not to mention the fact that the deal is contingent on many other issues being resolved, none of which have been satisfied. So Trump grabs headlines, but there's nothing to actually back up what he said. He wasn't "mocked" for his stance on China, he was criticized for it. Until such time as there is an actual deal in place, consumers and the American farmer are going to be paying for this. As far as this being the "greatest economy the world has ever seen," which is Trump's line, there are obviously myriad ways to view that. Is the economy doing well? Absolutely. To deny that is to deny reality. But....what does it really mean when we say the economy is doing well? Unemployment being at record lows - technically, the 3.7% unemployment rate (as of September, 2019) is the lowest rate since 3.5% back in 1969. If you look at the rate of unemployment since 2008, the decrease in unemployment has remained rather steady so I don't see it as something Trump can take credit for, but still, it's a good thing. Median income? Yes, it's the highest it's ever been, coming in at $63,179 in 2018, a slight notch above 2017. Again, these rates have gone up steadily in the last 10 years since the recession, although I think it would be disingenuous to say Trump is causing the growth to stall - eventually the increases have to slow so I can't fault him for that. GDP? In July, 2019, the US bureau of Economic Analysis showed that GDP growth was 2.5% in 2018, certainly a fine number but pretty much in line with the previous 10 years. The White House, at the time, announced that the GDP had increased by 3%, saying that a 3% increase was the first time in more than a decade, which is a demonstrable lie as it hadn't hit that mark. Why lie to the public? The stock market - the greatest bellweather for Republican prognosticators. Trump has done what Dubya did and what Reagan did before him: cut corporate taxes and de-regulate the finance industry, which results in higher stock values and increased cash to the richest of the rich. Does this really help Americans on a day-to-day basis? No, it does not. The top 10% of the US in terms of wealth own 84% of the value of the stock market. The remaining 16% is distributed among people who will really never see a material benefit from the health stock market. In other words, it's basically a campaign slogan for something that benefits Trump, his donors and the wealthiest of Americans.
Now, obviously, having a healthy stock market is better than a weak one, but the idea that Trump is somehow this great harbinger of stock market success is silly when you consider that since he took office, the aggregate percentage rise in stock market value has been 25%, which is exactly the same rate of increase during Obama's first 2.5 years in office. Assuming the same trajectory, Trump won't be any better for stock market gains than his predecessor in terms of increased value. Again, not a bad thing, but to laud him and denigrate the other makes no sense when you look at the hard data. Their economic growth metrics are pretty similar.
Now, the biggest issues with Trump:
The deficit is spiraling out of control and the cash resulting from the corporate tax breaks were offset by increased spending and growing debt service payments. Remember the Tea Party? Remember how they claimed that the deficit was the single biggest threat to our country 10 years ago? Well, now those people are silent. Fiscal year 2019 ended with the largest deficit in 7 years and it's the first time since the early 1980s that the budget gap has widened for 4 straight years. The deficit is now $984b.
You talk about Trump's campaign promises, this is a HUGE one where he flat out lied to everyone and given that two additional spending bills were approved earlier this year, that deficit is only going up. Guess who is going to pay for that? The middle class. Under the Trump tax plan, while corporate rate decreases are in place (down 14%), the individual rates will actually sunset such that by 2025, individuals will be paying more in taxes than they were under the previous tax plan.
Trump expressly said "the wealthy won't benefit, the rich will not be gaining at all with this plan." In 2019, taxpayers who earn over $347,940 in income received nearly a 3% increase in after-tax income, by far the largest increase among the income tiers and with the corporate tax rates being slashed, people who own businesses can simply take advantage of the heavily decreased pass-through exposure, resulting in an ever greater windfall. The middle class have no such windfall and when their reduced tax rates will have expired, the rich will have numerous methods of avoiding paying taxes whereas the middle class and the poor wont.
We've talked about this in the past - rising deficit values and increased spending. It's going to be a huge problem. This isn't rooting for a recession and quite frankly, it infuriates me to no end when Tomi Lahren or whomever say that this is what the left is doing. Nobody wants a recession, but to simply point out that what the administration is doing is achieving short term gain with long term consequences is stating the obvious. You can't operate the country this way just like you can't operate a business this way.
Plus, when Trump publicly, on Twitter (see below) shits on his Fed Chief demanding further interest rate cuts, it's rather baffling. Cutting interest rates and providing for corporate welfare is what you do when the economy is bad. It's how you spur growth, capital investment, business formation, etc., by reducing the cost of borrowed funds and increasing cash flow vis-a-vis reduced tax exposure. When the economy is good, you simply enable the rich to engage in stock buy-backs, which is exactly what happened. Whatever marginal increase to wages occurred is dwarfed by the rich further enriching themselves.
Long story short, this is nothing more than a cash grab, one than you and I are going to have to pay for when the house of cards falls apart.
The tweeting. A lot of my Republican friends see this as harmless, the kind of thing that Fox News likes to point to as TDS when people on the left say how bad it is. When Trump belittles political opponents, the press and most importantly, our intelligence agencies and the FBI, publicly, on Twitter, like a 13 year old girl, it is rather harmful. He's basically undermining the very fabric of our government and encouraging people not to take them seriously. If the president doesn't have to cooperate with an FBI investigation or congressional subpoenas, why should anybody else? It hurts out standing in the world when he does it and hurts the ability of those institutions to do their jobs effectively.
The Constitution. When Trump publicly complains about the "fake emoluments clause," I scratch my head as to how ardent right wingers can stand idly by. The emoluments clause is not a liberal conspiracy and Trump 100% was going to violate it with his G7 stunt. Even Napolitano on Fox News pasted him for that one. This is just one example, among hundreds, where Trump just disregards the Constitution. I can probably spend all day providing examples of this.
Lastly, and this one is more of a non-substantive thing, but when you say that the hatred Trump gets is hilarious, I have a counter. Yes, sometimes it gets a bit out of hand, but to criticize Trump, to highlight his words and point out that what he says is simply untrue using hard facts, is not TDS. It's the job of analysts and journalists. To me, TDS is when a room full of church goers praise god for delivering Trump to them, to declare him as god's gift to humanity. When idiot Matt Gaetz the other day says that he loves Trump so much that he couldn't possibly love another president again, that's the real TDS.
Looking forward to engaging in a civil discourse with you, if anybody else wants to jump in, I request that you do the same. Nothing you said is really untrue. I especially agree about the tweeting. Trump causes his own problems with his mouth. However, he is still doing a decent job. He honestly is. I could argue that he is doing a better job than Obama ever did. My point is that the irrational hatred for him is ridiculous. The media praised Obama for everything he ever did. The media hates Trump and criticizes harshly every decision he makes. It gets annoying. I am not making this up in the slightest. I pay close attention to this stuff. Swipe left on your iPhone on any day of the week and read the news stories. The bias is so apparent I feel like I live in an oppressed country where the media is controlled, except it is extreme anti-President. It gets difficult to tell positive Trump stories because they get buried daily. He came into office promising the end to our troops fighting constant never ending wars. He promised an end to extreme globalism when he was elected. Everything he has done has fallen in line with that and I am for it.
I want to use one example. Remember when Trump said that "There are fine people on both sides."? That is still quoted by the media almost daily and Libs use it as an example of racism by Trump. If you just listened to the sentence immediately before that one or any other part of the speech, you would know that he publicly condemned the white supremacists there. Does anyone report that? Does anyone care? No. This is just one of seriously thousands of examples of Trump being misquoted to feed an agenda. That agenda is that Trump is a bad man.
Remember for two years everyone in their mother said Trump was a Russian spy, colluded with Russia to win the election, loves Putin, etc.? That was a promise made to us by Dems and the media for two years. It all turned out to be false. The media and Democrats were visibly upset about this. They wanted the President of the United States to be a traitor. They actually were upset that he was not. What do they do? Move onto the next one and rinse and repeat until something sticks. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I have to give Trump credit. If any other politician was investigated and every detail of their life mulled over this much, they would surely find something. You do not become a powerful and successful politician in this country without having some skeletons in your closet.
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Post by DSDSquared on Oct 28, 2019 14:54:18 GMT
Easily. Even if you think he is not directly responsible, our foreign trade agreements have been improved dramatically under Trump. Our economy is statistically doing better than it ever has in our history. Unemployment is at record lows, the median income is higher than it has been in decades, the stock market has experience record highs, and more people are working than ever before. Trump was hard on Vietnam and South Korea and it was told to be a mistake. He ended up signing huge trade deals with both of them. His hard stance on China was mocked. He just signed an agriculture deal that brings billions back to our famers in the US. He has done everything in his power to keep all of his campaign promises, which is a rarity. I am just scratching the surface, but to say he has not done a good job is ignorant at best. Gentlemen's pact - I like you, and I surmise that you feel the same about me, we generally respect each other so let's do what others fail to do and keep this civil. I have faith in us. This agricultural deal you mention is something Trump and his administration talked about, but senior commodities analysts in China have already denounced the $50b as being a headline and wholly unrealistic even if the pact were ratified as it would represent a 100% increase in spending, not to mention the fact that the deal is contingent on many other issues being resolved, none of which have been satisfied. So Trump grabs headlines, but there's nothing to actually back up what he said. He wasn't "mocked" for his stance on China, he was criticized for it. Until such time as there is an actual deal in place, consumers and the American farmer are going to be paying for this. As far as this being the "greatest economy the world has ever seen," which is Trump's line, there are obviously myriad ways to view that. Is the economy doing well? Absolutely. To deny that is to deny reality. But....what does it really mean when we say the economy is doing well? Unemployment being at record lows - technically, the 3.7% unemployment rate (as of September, 2019) is the lowest rate since 3.5% back in 1969. If you look at the rate of unemployment since 2008, the decrease in unemployment has remained rather steady so I don't see it as something Trump can take credit for, but still, it's a good thing. Median income? Yes, it's the highest it's ever been, coming in at $63,179 in 2018, a slight notch above 2017. Again, these rates have gone up steadily in the last 10 years since the recession, although I think it would be disingenuous to say Trump is causing the growth to stall - eventually the increases have to slow so I can't fault him for that. GDP? In July, 2019, the US bureau of Economic Analysis showed that GDP growth was 2.5% in 2018, certainly a fine number but pretty much in line with the previous 10 years. The White House, at the time, announced that the GDP had increased by 3%, saying that a 3% increase was the first time in more than a decade, which is a demonstrable lie as it hadn't hit that mark. Why lie to the public? The stock market - the greatest bellweather for Republican prognosticators. Trump has done what Dubya did and what Reagan did before him: cut corporate taxes and de-regulate the finance industry, which results in higher stock values and increased cash to the richest of the rich. Does this really help Americans on a day-to-day basis? No, it does not. The top 10% of the US in terms of wealth own 84% of the value of the stock market. The remaining 16% is distributed among people who will really never see a material benefit from the health stock market. In other words, it's basically a campaign slogan for something that benefits Trump, his donors and the wealthiest of Americans.
Now, obviously, having a healthy stock market is better than a weak one, but the idea that Trump is somehow this great harbinger of stock market success is silly when you consider that since he took office, the aggregate percentage rise in stock market value has been 25%, which is exactly the same rate of increase during Obama's first 2.5 years in office. Assuming the same trajectory, Trump won't be any better for stock market gains than his predecessor in terms of increased value. Again, not a bad thing, but to laud him and denigrate the other makes no sense when you look at the hard data. Their economic growth metrics are pretty similar.
Now, the biggest issues with Trump:
The deficit is spiraling out of control and the cash resulting from the corporate tax breaks were offset by increased spending and growing debt service payments. Remember the Tea Party? Remember how they claimed that the deficit was the single biggest threat to our country 10 years ago? Well, now those people are silent. Fiscal year 2019 ended with the largest deficit in 7 years and it's the first time since the early 1980s that the budget gap has widened for 4 straight years. The deficit is now $984b.
You talk about Trump's campaign promises, this is a HUGE one where he flat out lied to everyone and given that two additional spending bills were approved earlier this year, that deficit is only going up. Guess who is going to pay for that? The middle class. Under the Trump tax plan, while corporate rate decreases are in place (down 14%), the individual rates will actually sunset such that by 2025, individuals will be paying more in taxes than they were under the previous tax plan.
Trump expressly said "the wealthy won't benefit, the rich will not be gaining at all with this plan." In 2019, taxpayers who earn over $347,940 in income received nearly a 3% increase in after-tax income, by far the largest increase among the income tiers and with the corporate tax rates being slashed, people who own businesses can simply take advantage of the heavily decreased pass-through exposure, resulting in an ever greater windfall. The middle class have no such windfall and when their reduced tax rates will have expired, the rich will have numerous methods of avoiding paying taxes whereas the middle class and the poor wont.
We've talked about this in the past - rising deficit values and increased spending. It's going to be a huge problem. This isn't rooting for a recession and quite frankly, it infuriates me to no end when Tomi Lahren or whomever say that this is what the left is doing. Nobody wants a recession, but to simply point out that what the administration is doing is achieving short term gain with long term consequences is stating the obvious. You can't operate the country this way just like you can't operate a business this way.
Plus, when Trump publicly, on Twitter (see below) shits on his Fed Chief demanding further interest rate cuts, it's rather baffling. Cutting interest rates and providing for corporate welfare is what you do when the economy is bad. It's how you spur growth, capital investment, business formation, etc., by reducing the cost of borrowed funds and increasing cash flow vis-a-vis reduced tax exposure. When the economy is good, you simply enable the rich to engage in stock buy-backs, which is exactly what happened. Whatever marginal increase to wages occurred is dwarfed by the rich further enriching themselves.
Long story short, this is nothing more than a cash grab, one than you and I are going to have to pay for when the house of cards falls apart.
The tweeting. A lot of my Republican friends see this as harmless, the kind of thing that Fox News likes to point to as TDS when people on the left say how bad it is. When Trump belittles political opponents, the press and most importantly, our intelligence agencies and the FBI, publicly, on Twitter, like a 13 year old girl, it is rather harmful. He's basically undermining the very fabric of our government and encouraging people not to take them seriously. If the president doesn't have to cooperate with an FBI investigation or congressional subpoenas, why should anybody else? It hurts out standing in the world when he does it and hurts the ability of those institutions to do their jobs effectively.
The Constitution. When Trump publicly complains about the "fake emoluments clause," I scratch my head as to how ardent right wingers can stand idly by. The emoluments clause is not a liberal conspiracy and Trump 100% was going to violate it with his G7 stunt. Even Napolitano on Fox News pasted him for that one. This is just one example, among hundreds, where Trump just disregards the Constitution. I can probably spend all day providing examples of this.
Lastly, and this one is more of a non-substantive thing, but when you say that the hatred Trump gets is hilarious, I have a counter. Yes, sometimes it gets a bit out of hand, but to criticize Trump, to highlight his words and point out that what he says is simply untrue using hard facts, is not TDS. It's the job of analysts and journalists. To me, TDS is when a room full of church goers praise god for delivering Trump to them, to declare him as god's gift to humanity. When idiot Matt Gaetz the other day says that he loves Trump so much that he couldn't possibly love another president again, that's the real TDS.
Looking forward to engaging in a civil discourse with you, if anybody else wants to jump in, I request that you do the same. Also it is difficult to give any President credit for the stock market or economy. Most of the time these are policies done at all branches of government and the policies take years and sometimes even decades to fully have an effect. However, I feel that many of the improvements are a direct result of Trump's policies, especially in the foreign market. I also love how Trump is getting us out of all of these ridiculous foreign trade agreements. The best example of this is the Paris Accords. With those Accords, the US would pay billions for almost no significant gain for the environment while other countries were barely even contributing. The media just reported this as Trump hates the environment, when he merely saw that America does more towards protecting the environment than every other country in the world combined. Trump asks the question I always asked. Why? Why do we have to be the police of the world? Why do we always have to protect other countries and pay billions in aid to everyone else and get nothing in return? It is time we start focusing on America first and putting our problems at the forefront. Like it or not, that is what Trump is intending to do. He is not perfect, but he is trying and I think he has done an adequate job. By what you hear in the media, he is the biggest disaster that ever entered the oval office. It is simply not true.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Oct 28, 2019 15:03:44 GMT
Gentlemen's pact - I like you, and I surmise that you feel the same about me, we generally respect each other so let's do what others fail to do and keep this civil. I have faith in us. This agricultural deal you mention is something Trump and his administration talked about, but senior commodities analysts in China have already denounced the $50b as being a headline and wholly unrealistic even if the pact were ratified as it would represent a 100% increase in spending, not to mention the fact that the deal is contingent on many other issues being resolved, none of which have been satisfied. So Trump grabs headlines, but there's nothing to actually back up what he said. He wasn't "mocked" for his stance on China, he was criticized for it. Until such time as there is an actual deal in place, consumers and the American farmer are going to be paying for this. As far as this being the "greatest economy the world has ever seen," which is Trump's line, there are obviously myriad ways to view that. Is the economy doing well? Absolutely. To deny that is to deny reality. But....what does it really mean when we say the economy is doing well? Unemployment being at record lows - technically, the 3.7% unemployment rate (as of September, 2019) is the lowest rate since 3.5% back in 1969. If you look at the rate of unemployment since 2008, the decrease in unemployment has remained rather steady so I don't see it as something Trump can take credit for, but still, it's a good thing. Median income? Yes, it's the highest it's ever been, coming in at $63,179 in 2018, a slight notch above 2017. Again, these rates have gone up steadily in the last 10 years since the recession, although I think it would be disingenuous to say Trump is causing the growth to stall - eventually the increases have to slow so I can't fault him for that. GDP? In July, 2019, the US bureau of Economic Analysis showed that GDP growth was 2.5% in 2018, certainly a fine number but pretty much in line with the previous 10 years. The White House, at the time, announced that the GDP had increased by 3%, saying that a 3% increase was the first time in more than a decade, which is a demonstrable lie as it hadn't hit that mark. Why lie to the public? The stock market - the greatest bellweather for Republican prognosticators. Trump has done what Dubya did and what Reagan did before him: cut corporate taxes and de-regulate the finance industry, which results in higher stock values and increased cash to the richest of the rich. Does this really help Americans on a day-to-day basis? No, it does not. The top 10% of the US in terms of wealth own 84% of the value of the stock market. The remaining 16% is distributed among people who will really never see a material benefit from the health stock market. In other words, it's basically a campaign slogan for something that benefits Trump, his donors and the wealthiest of Americans.
Now, obviously, having a healthy stock market is better than a weak one, but the idea that Trump is somehow this great harbinger of stock market success is silly when you consider that since he took office, the aggregate percentage rise in stock market value has been 25%, which is exactly the same rate of increase during Obama's first 2.5 years in office. Assuming the same trajectory, Trump won't be any better for stock market gains than his predecessor in terms of increased value. Again, not a bad thing, but to laud him and denigrate the other makes no sense when you look at the hard data. Their economic growth metrics are pretty similar.
Now, the biggest issues with Trump:
The deficit is spiraling out of control and the cash resulting from the corporate tax breaks were offset by increased spending and growing debt service payments. Remember the Tea Party? Remember how they claimed that the deficit was the single biggest threat to our country 10 years ago? Well, now those people are silent. Fiscal year 2019 ended with the largest deficit in 7 years and it's the first time since the early 1980s that the budget gap has widened for 4 straight years. The deficit is now $984b.
You talk about Trump's campaign promises, this is a HUGE one where he flat out lied to everyone and given that two additional spending bills were approved earlier this year, that deficit is only going up. Guess who is going to pay for that? The middle class. Under the Trump tax plan, while corporate rate decreases are in place (down 14%), the individual rates will actually sunset such that by 2025, individuals will be paying more in taxes than they were under the previous tax plan.
Trump expressly said "the wealthy won't benefit, the rich will not be gaining at all with this plan." In 2019, taxpayers who earn over $347,940 in income received nearly a 3% increase in after-tax income, by far the largest increase among the income tiers and with the corporate tax rates being slashed, people who own businesses can simply take advantage of the heavily decreased pass-through exposure, resulting in an ever greater windfall. The middle class have no such windfall and when their reduced tax rates will have expired, the rich will have numerous methods of avoiding paying taxes whereas the middle class and the poor wont.
We've talked about this in the past - rising deficit values and increased spending. It's going to be a huge problem. This isn't rooting for a recession and quite frankly, it infuriates me to no end when Tomi Lahren or whomever say that this is what the left is doing. Nobody wants a recession, but to simply point out that what the administration is doing is achieving short term gain with long term consequences is stating the obvious. You can't operate the country this way just like you can't operate a business this way.
Plus, when Trump publicly, on Twitter (see below) shits on his Fed Chief demanding further interest rate cuts, it's rather baffling. Cutting interest rates and providing for corporate welfare is what you do when the economy is bad. It's how you spur growth, capital investment, business formation, etc., by reducing the cost of borrowed funds and increasing cash flow vis-a-vis reduced tax exposure. When the economy is good, you simply enable the rich to engage in stock buy-backs, which is exactly what happened. Whatever marginal increase to wages occurred is dwarfed by the rich further enriching themselves.
Long story short, this is nothing more than a cash grab, one than you and I are going to have to pay for when the house of cards falls apart.
The tweeting. A lot of my Republican friends see this as harmless, the kind of thing that Fox News likes to point to as TDS when people on the left say how bad it is. When Trump belittles political opponents, the press and most importantly, our intelligence agencies and the FBI, publicly, on Twitter, like a 13 year old girl, it is rather harmful. He's basically undermining the very fabric of our government and encouraging people not to take them seriously. If the president doesn't have to cooperate with an FBI investigation or congressional subpoenas, why should anybody else? It hurts out standing in the world when he does it and hurts the ability of those institutions to do their jobs effectively.
The Constitution. When Trump publicly complains about the "fake emoluments clause," I scratch my head as to how ardent right wingers can stand idly by. The emoluments clause is not a liberal conspiracy and Trump 100% was going to violate it with his G7 stunt. Even Napolitano on Fox News pasted him for that one. This is just one example, among hundreds, where Trump just disregards the Constitution. I can probably spend all day providing examples of this.
Lastly, and this one is more of a non-substantive thing, but when you say that the hatred Trump gets is hilarious, I have a counter. Yes, sometimes it gets a bit out of hand, but to criticize Trump, to highlight his words and point out that what he says is simply untrue using hard facts, is not TDS. It's the job of analysts and journalists. To me, TDS is when a room full of church goers praise god for delivering Trump to them, to declare him as god's gift to humanity. When idiot Matt Gaetz the other day says that he loves Trump so much that he couldn't possibly love another president again, that's the real TDS.
Looking forward to engaging in a civil discourse with you, if anybody else wants to jump in, I request that you do the same. Nothing you said is really untrue. I especially agree about the tweeting. Trump causes his own problems with his mouth. However, he is still doing a decent job. He honestly is. I could argue that he is doing a better job than Obama ever did. My point is that the irrational hatred for him is ridiculous. The media praised Obama for everything he ever did. The media hates Trump and criticizes harshly every decision he makes. It gets annoying. I am not making this up in the slightest. I pay close attention to this stuff. Swipe left on your iPhone on any day of the week and read the news stories. The bias is so apparent I feel like I live in an oppressed country where the media is controlled, except it is extreme anti-President. It gets difficult to tell positive Trump stories because they get buried daily. He came into office promising the end to our troops fighting constant never ending wars. He promised an end to extreme globalism when he was elected. Everything he has done has fallen in line with that and I am for it.
I want to use one example. Remember when Trump said that "There are fine people on both sides."? That is still quoted by the media almost daily and Libs use it as an example of racism by Trump. If you just listened to the sentence immediately before that one or any other part of the speech, you would know that he publicly condemned the white supremacists there. Does anyone report that? Does anyone care? No. This is just one of seriously thousands of examples of Trump being misquoted to feed an agenda. That agenda is that Trump is a bad man.
Remember for two years everyone in their mother said Trump was a Russian spy, colluded with Russia to win the election, loves Putin, etc.? That was a promise made to us by Dems and the media for two years. It all turned out to be false. The media and Democrats were visibly upset about this. They wanted the President of the United States to be a traitor. They actually were upset that he was not. What do they do? Move onto the next one and rinse and repeat until something sticks. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I have to give Trump credit. If any other politician was investigated and every detail of their life mulled over this much, they would surely find something. You do not become a powerful and successful politician in this country without having some skeletons in your closet.
Totally agree about the "fine people on both sides" part and like I said, some of it does get ridiculous. That said, the whining from certain media outlets gets pretty much washed away by people like Stu Varney and his crew of sycophants, which engage the polar opposite type of behavior, where they go out of their way to praise things that either have nothing to do with him, or praise him for things that are demonstrably untrue. As for the Russian spy part, I can't agree that it is false at all. If you read the Mueller Report (and I have), it very clearly does not clear him of any wrongdoing and the amount of indictments, guilty pleas and other evidence that came to light regarding those very close to him is a clear indication that Trump's hands aren't clean. So whereas the media on the one hand may go too far with their condemnation of his actions (and it becomes a "boy who cried wolf" scenario sometimes), something like this is a clear indicator of shenanigans and because of his headline-grabbing tirades and refusal to cooperate, people hold the attitude that you do - that he's being harassed and that there's nothing there. There's nothing there, according to him and the Blaze. According to the report, not so much. Remember, there's a reason why he won't release his tax returns, and it has nothing to do with presidential harassment; back in the 80s, when institutional lenders wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole, he had to get the money from somewhere...
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Post by klawrencio79 on Oct 28, 2019 15:18:20 GMT
Also it is difficult to give any President credit for the stock market or economy. Most of the time these are policies done at all branches of government and the policies take years and sometimes even decades to fully have an effect. However, I feel that many of the improvements are a direct result of Trump's policies, especially in the foreign market. I also love how Trump is getting us out of all of these ridiculous foreign trade agreements. The best example of this is the Paris Accords. With those Accords, the US would pay billions for almost no significant gain for the environment while other countries were barely even contributing. The media just reported this as Trump hates the environment, when he merely saw that America does more towards protecting the environment than every other country in the world combined. Trump asks the question I always asked. Why? Why do we have to be the police of the world? Why do we always have to protect other countries and pay billions in aid to everyone else and get nothing in return? It is time we start focusing on America first and putting our problems at the forefront. Like it or not, that is what Trump is intending to do. He is not perfect, but he is trying and I think he has done an adequate job. By what you hear in the media, he is the biggest disaster that ever entered the oval office. It is simply not true. But....are we putting America first? The environment is something that affects the entire planet and climate change has measurable, scientifically proven effects. I'll never understand how these things become partisan. Trump didn't just pull out of the Paris accords, something we've talked about in the past, but he's also gutted environmental regulations. While the belief is that the American private sector will offset the withdrawal and the benefits of working with other countries, the real result is that by gutting these regulations, the green energy sector no longer gets the subsidies and tax breaks it needs to thrive while they're still in the R&D phase. Other countries will be able to advance these technologies faster than we can and we'll fall behind. Plus, the deregulation of American fossil-fuel industries that already enjoyed huge tax breaks and subsidies just increases their ability to expand. Again, it's a cash grab. By removing regulations and withdrawing from the Paris Accords, it just means that the American companies can spend less money on compliance. That's great....for business owners who want to keep more of their profits for themselves. That's not really a Trump thing, that's something Republicans have pushed for during my entire life - decreased compliance costs. I'm not naive to understand the benefit to the business owners that deregulation has, but I can also see how Trump's backers and donors are in favor of removing these policies. I also don't see it as a matter of policing the rest of the world, but the accords gave the US (and the other participating countries) a target to cut overall greenhouse gas emissions and a US contribution of $3b to the Green Climate Fund. That's it. I've seen conservative sites that shit all over the accords and talk about the US was getting fleeced in the deal, but there's nothing in the actual accords that support that.
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Post by shadyvsesham on Oct 28, 2019 16:27:32 GMT
Who cares? The man is doing a good job. Prove me wrong. You can't. This irrational hatred towards the man is hilarious at times. Prove to me he is doing a great job. He said we'd all have health care, believe me...where is it? F*ck where is the GOPs repeal plan? He said he'd bring down the debt, about to be at 23 trillion. Everyone claims he "boosted" the economy. One problem, Obama got it at 9.7, Trump 4.8. It's at 3.5. Shows me he didnt inherit a mess. His foreign policy is a disaster. Am I saying he is the worst, no, I didnt like Obama much either. Regardless, a great job is a little.....
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Post by Beardy McJewsenheimer ESQ on Oct 28, 2019 16:34:22 GMT
They weren't saying Boooooo, they were saying Truuuuuuuuuu-ump!
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