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Post by Salzmank on Apr 20, 2017 16:55:55 GMT
Apologies if someone mentioned this and I just didn't see it, but how about M (Fritz Lang, 1931)? I recently wrote an analysis of M for another forum, and I realized that I hadn't seen the remake (1951), starring David Wayne in the Peter Lorre role? I've never seen it, and it's apparently quite different, but I suppose it still counts, right?
M's not a silent movie, of course, as shawshanked pointed out to me below. Sorry about that!
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Post by shawshanked on Apr 20, 2017 17:09:04 GMT
Apologies if someone mentioned this and I just didn't see it, but how about M (Fritz Lang, 1931)? I recently wrote an analysis of M for another forum, and I realized that I hadn't seen the remake (1951), starring David Wayne in the Peter Lorre role? I've never seen it, and it's apparently quite different, but I suppose it still counts, right? M isn't a silent movie though.
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 20, 2017 17:10:33 GMT
Apologies if someone mentioned this and I just didn't see it, but how about M (Fritz Lang, 1931)? I recently wrote an analysis of M for another forum, and I realized that I hadn't seen the remake (1951), starring David Wayne in the Peter Lorre role? I've never seen it, and it's apparently quite different, but I suppose it still counts, right? M isn't a silent movie though. Ah, more fool I, you're right, of course. Comes of my common error of typing before I think, doesn't it? Thanks!
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Post by spiderwort on Apr 20, 2017 19:03:51 GMT
Just to clarify this thread topic (given that I get a little lax at times): I think we should stick to titles of films that were first shot to be silent and then were completely remade as sound films. That said, I really appreciate and am truly intrigued by the revisions of the Chaplin and the other films mentioned, which illustrate so beautifully the remarkable plasticity of the medium. So thanks to all for your wonderful contributions, even those that don't technically qualify.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 20, 2017 21:20:21 GMT
"The Lady from the Sea" was originally a play by Henrik Ibsen. It has also been a ballet, an opera, and a radio play.
As for filmed versions, it was turned into a short U.S. silent film in 1911 (produced by the Thanhouser company, which I'm rather fond of), and became a late UK silent feature film in 1929. A sound movie version was made in 1954, and surprisingly was made by Argentina (I didn't even know Argentina had a film industry back then!)
As usual public television did its share of versions: A 1953 version by the BBC is one of the oldest surviving examples of British television drama, a 1961 version aired live in Australia (the National Archives hold a copy, but haven't digitised it), A 1966 version came out of Spain, another version from Spain came out in 1968, the BBC did another version in 1974, Norway did a version in 1979, Spain did another version in 1984, while Portugal did a version in 1993.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a more recent film or TV version.
EDIT: Turns out there was another BBC TV version in 1958. Unfortunately, this version is lost.
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Post by mszanadu on Apr 20, 2017 22:51:27 GMT
No animation. I can only think of a few at the moment: Ben-Hur (1925 & 1959) The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (1921 & 1962) The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1923 & 1939) 7th Seven (1927) & Seventh Heaven (1937) Does this one count or make this list here spiderwort ? The original silent film The Wizard of Oz 1925 remade to the well known film The Wizard of Oz 1939 . Thanks spiderwort for your subject post  .
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 20, 2017 23:00:01 GMT
No animation. I can only think of a few at the moment: Ben-Hur (1925 & 1959) The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (1921 & 1962) The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1923 & 1939) 7th Seven (1927) & Seventh Heaven (1937) Does this one count or make this list here spiderwort ? The original silent film The Wizard of Oz 1925 remade to the well known film The Wizard of Oz 1939 . Thanks spiderwort for your subject post  . "The Wizard of Oz" was also done as a short film in 1910.
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Post by mszanadu on Apr 20, 2017 23:06:08 GMT
"The Wizard of Oz" was also done as a short film in 1910. Thanks so much Wolf-Swordsman  . I actually had no idea this one was made even earlier then the one I mentioned here - excellent indeed  . Will definitely be looking out for that one on TCM as well  .
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 21, 2017 1:31:01 GMT
...the remarkable plasticity of the medium. That phrase rather caught my imagination, and got me thinking about the nature of film as both art and manufactured consumer product. While a work in paint or sculpture is undoubtedly subject to what might be called "editorial" decisions during creation ("Should I add more foliage to 'Mona Lisa's' background?" - "Am I making 'David's' shoulders too broad?") just as written works are, including those ultimately intended for performance such as plays and films, it's only in the latter two (and to be fair, in their televised incarnations) that the notion of "plasticity" is brought to bear upon the finished one. And to get further into the weeds by drawing the distinction between those, I'd apply the word "fluid" to live theatrical performances, each of which is ephemeral and unique in spite of what might be unchanged text and staging. With a film, even after the many levels of collaborative creative decisions occurring during pre-production (script; sets; casting; costuming, etc), production (lighting; camera lenses, framing and movement; aspects of performance; printed takes and so forth) and post-production (music scoring and recording, sound and visual effects and so on) have been made, there come the matters of assembly of these multiple components: picture, sound and music editing; sound mixing and dubbing; lab work such as color correction and printing orders. All these represent the manufacturing aspect. So now you've got a finished film but, even in that state, it continues to exist in the form of multiple components - original cut negative and INs/IPs made therefrom; mag fullcoat, D-M-E 3-stripe or optical printing neg derived from final dub; 2-stripe M&E or single-stripe of each - which have to be combined in the lab in yet another stage of manufacture to produce a single composite print for projection. And after all that (and here's where we get to that quality of plasticity to which you referred), this final product can be tinkered with in any number of ways, whether in the form of an "extended director's cut" for home video or theatrical reissue, truncated and/or pan-and-scan for broadcast or the sort of revision to which manfromplanetx referred in relation to The Gold Rush (not to mention shortened "general release" versions of such films as A Star Is Born or It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World following their roadshow engagements, or even re-edited re-issue versions of films such as Frankenstein or Baby Face to satisfy the sensitivities of the PCA/Breen office era). And by the time we get into issues involving shoddy print manufacture or "quick and dirty" video mastering from substandard elements at one end of the spectrum to full-on "restoration" (which involves its own set of technical and artistic decisions) at the other, it can become truly difficult to establish exactly what constitutes a definitive version of any given film. Anyone can create their own version of "Mona Lisa" as either slavish copy or one altered for personal commentary (with toothy grin or whatever), or of "David" (with either fig leaf or enhanced genitalia, for instance), but the originals remain as close to their completed forms as the ravages of time will allow. And while even works of architecture, which generally exist as one-offs, can be subject to both post-construction alteration and/or restoration, I can think of no other art form that can be continually and repeatedly vulnerable to after-the-fact amendment, in degrees great or small, as can that of film.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 21, 2017 1:39:12 GMT
The play "Hedda Gabler" by Henrik Ibsen was adapted in both the silent and sound eras
Silent versions included A 1917 version from the U.S. A 1920 version from Italy A 1925 version from Germany (IMDb says it is lost)
Strangely, it took until 1975 for a sound movie to be made, this time in the UK.
There were, as is usually the case, various TV adaptations: A 1954 version in the U.S, as part of "The United States Steel Hour" A 1961 version was done in Australia A 1962 version was a co-production between the UK and U.S. A 1972 version was done in the UK as part of "BBC Play of the Month" A 1975 version was done in Norway A 1981 version was done in the UK, surprisingly by commercial television A 1993 version was a co-production between the UK and US, and aired as part of "Performance" A 1993 version was done in Sweden
I can try to find more of these "plays that were both silents and talkies" if anyone wants. Generally, looking through lists of 50s/60s Australian TV programs aired on ABC is a good way for me to find these, since their early drama output included a lot of plays which are old enough to have had silent-era adaptations (however, looking through their 50s/60s programming output also reveals that many plays, particularly those written from the 1940s-onwards, have yet to have a film adaptation. There are also many which were adapted for TV but these adaptations are lost. If you ask me, both cinema and TV would benefit from producing new versions of rarely-seen plays instead of yet another damn version of "Sherlock Holmes" or some other over-done, been-there-done-that work)
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 21, 2017 2:23:36 GMT
Does this one count or make this list here spiderwort ? The original silent film The Wizard of Oz 1925 remade to the well known film The Wizard of Oz 1939 . Thanks spiderwort for your subject post  . Yes, these would definitely count, mszanadu. I'd love to see the silent just to compare the two. And thank you for posting! I haven't seen it, but I hear the 1925 version is awful.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 21, 2017 3:29:23 GMT
The book Wuthering Heights was done as a silent film in 1920 in the UK. It is believed to be lost. Nobody has heard of it. Somebody must have sprayed it with Stopette as it went poof. Nevertheless, since a silent version did exist at one point, it provides me a rare change to post the following, which shows that there CAN be too many adaptations of a book (I mean, five different U.S. TV versions in the 1950s alone?....and that's not even the weirdest thing in the list!) (note: just to explain, I checked "Movie Connections" on IMDb for one of the versions to find these. There may be more versions for all I know!) Sound film versions included: 1939 version done in the U.S. A 1953 version from Mexico ( Abismos de pasión), of all places! A 1966 re-worked version was done in India (Dil Diya Dard Liya) A 1970 version was done by the UK A 1985 version was done by France ( Hurlevent) A 1991 version ( Hihintayin kita sa langit) was made by the Philippines!!! A 1992 version was a US/UK co-production A 2007 version (called " The Promise") came out of Philippines (?!) A 2011 version came out of the UK Once again there are the usual TV adaptations: A 1948 version done in the U.S. as part of "Kraft Television Theatre" A 1953 version done in the U.S. as part of "Broadway Television Theatre A 1953 version done in the UK as part of "BBC Sunday-Night Theatre" A 1955 version once again from the U.S. as part of "Matinee Theatre" A 1957 version, again from the U.S., and again as part of "Matinee Theatre"!! A 1958 version from the U.S., this time as part of "The DuPont Show of the Month" A 1959 version was done in Australia. A 1963 TV series ( Cumbres borrascosas), this time from Peru!! A 1964 TV series ( Cumbres borrascosas), this time from Mexico!! A 1967 TV series ( O Morro dos Ventos Uivantes), this time from Brazil!! A 1973 TV series ( Vendaval), this time from Brazil yet again!!!!11one A 1973 TV series ( Cumbres borrascosas), coming from Venezuela?!?! A 1978 TV series, this time coming from the UK A 1979 TV series ( Cumbres borrascosas), this time from Mexico A 1998 version came out of the UK A 2004 version ( Cime tempestose) came out of Italy A 2009 2-part series came out of the UK Just to make this even weirder, the U.S. did a version in 2015 ( Wuthering High) with the setting changed to Malibu!! THAT takes the cake! Why should we stop here? Perhaps they should make a new version each year? 28 versions isn't enough!! Hey, maybe every country should do their own version! Perhaps other planets should do their own versions!! Maybe the demons of the underworld should do a version!!! How about an anime version?  ?? Or a porno version?  ? Or how about "Wuthering Heights on Ice"   ? EXPLODE!!!! OK, I'll try to calm down now.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 21, 2017 4:30:16 GMT
Seven Keys to Baldpate was a novel by Earl Derr Biggers, which was turned into a play in 1913 by George M. Cohan. Depite their popularity at the time, most of George M. Cohan's plays are long forgotten, and this is no exception. Notice how the BBC didn't do a version, which is strange. Maybe it wasn't good enough for them?
All versions from the U.S. unless otherwise noted.
Silent film versions included: A 1916 version from Australia, which Wikipedia says is partially lost A 1917 version, which I believe is on DVD A 1925 version, which is lost
Sound versions included: A 1929 version, courtesy of RKO A 1935 version, courtesy of RKO (again?) A 1947 version, courtesy of RKO (really???) - All three RKO versions are available on DVD-R A 1983 version called House of the Long Shadows, which came from the UK
Televison versions included: A 1946 version (only seen in New York City) - Aired live, and predated the 1947 invention of kinescopes, so is presumably lost A 1952 version as part of Broadway Television Theatre A 1962 version as part of The DuPont Show of the Week
Adding to the fun, Radio versions include: 1938, as part of Lux Radio Theatre 1946, as part of Theatre Guild on the Air
But what about She Stoops to Conquer, which was originally an 18th century play. Silent films were done, and TV versions were done, a straight-to-video version was done....BUT NO SOUND FILMS!! Ugh. This is getting off topic, but I mention it anyway because this is remarkable....so many adaptations, but no sound films.
Silent film versions included: A 1910 version from the U.S. by the Thanhouser company, a company I'm rather fond of A 1914 version from the UK A 1923 version from the UK
TV versions included: A 1939 version done in the UK (lost: It aired live, and the ability to record live TV was not developed until 1947, and was not used by the BBC to record a drama until 1953) A 1948 version from the U.S. as part of Kraft Television Theatre A 1949 version from the UK (lost) A 1952 version from the U.S. as part from Kraft Television Theatre A 1953 version from Canada as part of General Motors Presents A 1956 version from the UK (also lost) A 1960 version from the UK as part of Played Upon a Stage A 1961 version from the UK as part of the BBC Sunday Night Play (this too is lost) A 1966 version from the UK (yet again, this is lost too) A 1972 version from the UK as part of Stage 2 A 1974 version from the Soviet Union (who, believe it or not, did do various adaptations of western plays for their TV service) A 2008 version from the UK A 2012 version from the UK
A straight-to-video version came in 2003, from the UK
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 21, 2017 20:39:04 GMT
And while even works of architecture, which generally exist as one-offs, can be subject to both post-construction alteration and/or restoration, I can think of no other art form that can be continually and repeatedly vulnerable to after-the-fact amendment, in degrees great or small, as can that of film. Oh so true, Doghouse! I love your comments. Very insightful and beautifully said. For the record, the notion of the plasticity of the medium, has been ascribed to film for all the reasons you describe and even more since its inception - or since people began to analyze it. It's so malleable in all its elements and its process, as you so aptly describe, from pre-production, to production, to post-production, and then again even after its release. Ultimately it's the only artistic medium, that because of all its compounding elements, truly represents the reality of being able to manipulate, change, and process a work endlessly until one finally just says STOP! And then, as you point out, even more can be done. The very definition of plasticity, it seems to me.
Thanks for picking up on this topic and for your great comments. I want to thank you for your awfully kind remarks. Although I was focusing my thoughts on the ways in which filmed artistic product can be manipulated well after completion, it's applicable to the matter of malleability in process that you cite to consider the creative course a film takes that leads to the moment when, as you put it, "one finally just says STOP!" Prompting that consideration are intriguing clues to what we might call "films that might have been" to be found in trailers of the classic era. I've noticed over the years that, from the '30s through the '50s, it wasn't at all uncommon for material included in trailers to have been gleaned from alternate takes or entire scenes that didn't appear in the finished films. They might be master shots of scenes for which closeups were ultimately selected, line readings differing in intensity or emphasis from those in the film or which may even incorporate changes in dialogue. I chalk this up to what was fairly standard practice, especially during the "studio era," to begin promoting a film while still in post, a practice dictated by the much briefer schedules of the day. A director might order two or three acceptable takes circled on the camera report for printing, leaving final selection for later in the editing room; meanwhile, the trailer editor goes to work and makes his own selections from those options. What's particularly fascinating about them are the looks they allow at the creative process. Comparing scenes in the trailers to those used in the final cuts of George Cukor's Adam's Rib and A Star Is Born, for instance, it's easy to imagine Cukor saying, "Let's do another, Spence, but give me a little more this time," or "Can we try it again, Judy, but with less anguish and more weariness," and we can compare the results. Those comparisons reveal the possible creative courses a film might have taken, and provide tantalizing glimpses of those "might have been" films, made up entirely of shots or takes other than those finally used: a finished product that's the same, yet different. The trailer for Sweet Smell Of Success features an example not only of an alternate take but altered dialogue in the scene containing Burt Lancaster's quotable line, "I'd hate to take a bite outta you...you're a cookie full of arsenic." In the film, Tony Curtis's line cuing Lancaster's is, "I never thought I'd make a killing off a guy's integrity." In the trailer, it's, "We happen to know I'm your star pupil, because I reflect back to you your own talent." And we're treated as well to Lancaster's different reading of his own line. Then there are the uncommon cases of films that were produced in their entirety not once, but twice: 1930's The Bat Whispers (mentioned in my first reply on the thread), shot once on standard 35mm and once on 65mm negative for a widescreen process called Magnifilm; 1955's Oklahoma, done once in 35mm anamorphic and once on 65mm Todd-AO. In both cases, the choice was made for whatever reasons not to shoot simultaneously with multiple cameras, one exposing a 35mm neg and the other the 65mm. But it was not too unusual during the '20s to shoot with two cameras more or less side-by-side, one providing the domestic negative and the other that for foreign distribution. Aside from the 1929 re-shoots and re-edit for the previously-mentioned The Phantom Of the Opera, there still exist prints made from each negative, and there are scenes that reveal the use of different takes in each. Curiously, some of these were incorporated into that '29 re-edit. Given the hundreds of choices made along the way, it all suggests that for every film any of us knows so well, there may be another - or two or more - that might have existed in its place.
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Post by spiderwort on Apr 21, 2017 21:24:41 GMT
Doghouse6 Wonderful comments, Doghouse, and oh so true! It's amazing how complicated the process of filmmaking is - and how many decisions are made every second along the way. I don't think people can really understand how fluid and critical the magnitude of potential choices are unless they are involved in the process. It can be, and almost always is, exhausting! Thanks for your thoughtful, enlightening post.
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Post by gunshotwound on Apr 22, 2017 0:52:23 GMT
Funny this topic should come up. One of my pet peeves is that the silent picture "Uncle Tom's Cabin" has never been given a proper movie epic the way it should be. Yes. there was a TV movie, I believe, in the Seventies or Eighties, which I didn't see but heard it was not the greatest. I even emailed Mr. Spielberg (at Dreamworks)asking him to consider it for a future project. Don't know if he ever got it or read it.....but I tried. It's a shame, because it's a Classic and a great story and a piece of History. lynx0139 there was a German production of UTC in 1965. It has been a very long time since I have seen it so I cannot say much about it. It features Herbert Lom as Simon Legree. Maybe you can find a copy on vhs or dvd. I don't know.
www.imdb.com/title/tt0059545/combine
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Post by Fox in the Snow on Apr 22, 2017 4:16:11 GMT
Ozu remade his 1934 silent A Story of Floating Weeds as a sound film, Floating Weeds in 1959.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on Apr 22, 2017 16:29:45 GMT
According to Wikipedia (a website I hate but use anyway), the play "Knock ou le Triomphe de la médecine" is from 1923 and was written by Jules Romains.
Browsing around IMDb, we see that the following versions have been made: Knock, ou le triomphe de la médecine (1926) - A French silent film Knock, ou le triomphe de la médecine (1933) - A French sound film Knock (1951) - A French sound film Knock (1954) - A live television version from Britain Dr. Knock (1955) - A television version from Denmark Dr. Knock (1960) - A television version from West Germany "Encounter" Episode titled Dr. Knock (1961). Television version from Canada Knock o Il trionfo della medicina (1967) - A television version from Italy Dr. Knock (1973) - A television version from Denmark Dr. Knock (1974) - A television version from Norway Doktor Knock (1997) - Television version that seems to have been a co-production between Germany and Austria
There was also a version aired on British television in 1938, but it isn't listed on IMDb.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 6, 2017 6:38:57 GMT
East Lynne saw the following versions done:
Silent versions: A 1902 version from the UK A 1903 version from the U.S. A 1908 version from the U.S. A 1910 version from the UK A 1912 version from the U.S. A 1913 version from the UK A 1914 version from the UK A 1915 version from the U.S. A 1916 version from the U.S. A 1921 version from the U.S. A 1922 version from Australia A 1922 version from the UK A 1925 version from the U.S.
Only two sound versions have been made, one in 1931 (which is very rare), and a lost version from 1930 under the title "Ex-Flame".
Television versions included: A 1956 version from the UK, as part of "The Granville Melodramas". This version is lost. A 1964 version from the UK A 1976 version from the UK A 1982 version from the UK
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