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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 13:40:59 GMT
The Holocaust isn't the only attempted Genocide of the 20th Century. Doesn't matter. I'm not arguing that it's IMPOSSIBLE to change Magneto's origin. Just that it's a bad idea. Why is it a bad idea? Almost every Marvel character's backgrounds are changed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:58:31 GMT
Doesn't matter. I'm not arguing that it's IMPOSSIBLE to change Magneto's origin. Just that it's a bad idea. Why is it a bad idea? Almost every Marvel character's backgrounds are changed. Because it works perfectly for him. You're not going to convince me that a smaller attempted-genocide or a fictional one is better. Sorry. I don't like change for the sake of change. You can make the Holocaust origin continue to work in a variety of ways. Plus, this whole idea is based on the premise that the X-Men SHOULD go to the MCU. Which is an even worse idea.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 15:24:50 GMT
Why is it a bad idea? Almost every Marvel character's backgrounds are changed. Because it works perfectly for him. You're not going to convince me that a smaller attempted-genocide or a fictional one is better. Sorry. I don't like change for the sake of change. You can make the Holocaust origin continue to work in a variety of ways. Plus, this whole idea is based on the premise that the X-Men SHOULD go to the MCU. Which is an even worse idea. It's not change for the sake of change, because the whole "holocaust" thing is dated. Magneto would have to be over a 100-years-old. Also I'm not saying X-Men should go to the MCU. My argument is that X-Men can work in the MCU, despite what everyone says.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 15:39:15 GMT
Because it works perfectly for him. You're not going to convince me that a smaller attempted-genocide or a fictional one is better. Sorry. I don't like change for the sake of change. You can make the Holocaust origin continue to work in a variety of ways. Plus, this whole idea is based on the premise that the X-Men SHOULD go to the MCU. Which is an even worse idea. It's not change for the sake of change, because the whole "holocaust" thing is dated. Magneto would have to be over a 100-years-old. Also I'm not saying X-Men should go to the MCU. My argument is that X-Men can work in the MCU, despite what everyone says. Well, of course they can "work" in the MCU. I just don't think it's a good idea (for a variety of reasons). But if you pick another more recent attempted-genocide, then you're just going to keep running into the same issue every few decades (unless you use a fictional one, which I don't think is a good idea). The comics have already provided reasons why Magneto maintains a relatively youthful appearance. We don't need to reinvent the wheel too much. There are things you can tweak to make it work without giving his backstory a complete overhaul. An obvious route they can go is to say that the Nazis just experimented on him during the Holocaust. They gave him a prototype version of the Super Soldier formula and it allowed him to age at a slower pace.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 23, 2017 16:00:27 GMT
Cap has the excuse of being frozen for all that time, Magneto could hypothetically be given a similar origin that he was frozen in some "Experiment on later" laboratory.
Or they could just have him the survivor of another genocide. Frankly I always thought it was an exploitative idea to try and use the Holocaust in relation to X-Men.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 16:13:12 GMT
Cap has the excuse of being frozen for all that time, Magneto could hypothetically be given a similar origin that he was frozen in some "Experiment on later" laboratory. Or they could just have him the survivor of another genocide. Frankly I always thought it was an exploitative idea to try and use the Holocaust in relation to X-Men. It's not just that Cap was frozen. I'm pretty sure the whole Super Soldier things ages him slowly too. So you don't need to freeze Magneto to make it work. To me, it's important that it's the Holocaust because that's pretty much universally agreed to be the greatest act of systematic evil in human history. It quite literally shows the depths that humans can sink to. That's not to say that other attempted-genocides weren't evil, but there's a specific weight associated with what happened under the Nazi regime. It's the epitome of evil, one could say. So that makes Magneto all the more sympathetic (IMO). In a world that is filled with human evil, he's literally experienced the worst of the worst of it. And he vows to never let that happen again.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 16:24:09 GMT
It's not change for the sake of change, because the whole "holocaust" thing is dated. Magneto would have to be over a 100-years-old. Also I'm not saying X-Men should go to the MCU. My argument is that X-Men can work in the MCU, despite what everyone says. Well, of course they can "work" in the MCU. I just don't think it's a good idea (for a variety of reasons). But if you pick another more recent attempted-genocide, then you're just going to keep running into the same issue every few decades (unless you use a fictional one, which I don't think is a good idea). The comics have already provided reasons why Magneto maintains a relatively youthful appearance. We don't need to reinvent the wheel too much. There are things you can tweak to make it work without giving his backstory a complete overhaul. An obvious route they can go is to say that the Nazis just experimented on him during the Holocaust. They gave him a prototype version of the Super Soldier formula and it allowed him to age at a slower pace. I'm not saying they should go with another genocide at all. My point is that all you really need is Magneto losing his wife and children aspect of his origins, to give him a clear motivation on why he's out to save the mutant race. That's not reinventing the wheel. That happened in the comics.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 16:58:35 GMT
Well, of course they can "work" in the MCU. I just don't think it's a good idea (for a variety of reasons). But if you pick another more recent attempted-genocide, then you're just going to keep running into the same issue every few decades (unless you use a fictional one, which I don't think is a good idea). The comics have already provided reasons why Magneto maintains a relatively youthful appearance. We don't need to reinvent the wheel too much. There are things you can tweak to make it work without giving his backstory a complete overhaul. An obvious route they can go is to say that the Nazis just experimented on him during the Holocaust. They gave him a prototype version of the Super Soldier formula and it allowed him to age at a slower pace. I'm not saying they should go with another genocide at all. My point is that all you really need is Magneto losing his wife and children aspect of his origins, to give him a clear motivation on why he's out to save the mutant race. That's not reinventing the wheel. That happened in the comics. And that's significantly less interesting than his decades-long history of him being a Holocaust survivor. Not a fan of that... at all.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 23, 2017 17:16:08 GMT
They could also just kill off most of the Avengers in Infinity Wars, and then make the next phase a "rise of the mutants" phase where the mutants are the new breed of enhanced individuals resulting from the Infinity stones causing havoc with the human DNA. Then maybe leave some of the old Avengers as mentors or something. Probably leave Thor alive because you don't want Asgard to lose it's prince/king. Leave other side characters like Scarlet Witch or even Black Widow and give them a chance to shine in being the mentors of the new mutants. Heck, get Scarlet Witch to be the mentor to a young Xavier. And don't tell me that we shouldn't mess with the X-men storyline to that extent, not after Fox just made Mystique the new leader of the X-men.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 23, 2017 17:54:01 GMT
Cap has the excuse of being frozen for all that time, Magneto could hypothetically be given a similar origin that he was frozen in some "Experiment on later" laboratory. Or they could just have him the survivor of another genocide. Frankly I always thought it was an exploitative idea to try and use the Holocaust in relation to X-Men. It's not just that Cap was frozen. I'm pretty sure the whole Super Soldier things ages him slowly too. So you don't need to freeze Magneto to make it work. To me, it's important that it's the Holocaust because that's pretty much universally agreed to be the greatest act of systematic evil in human history. It quite literally shows the depths that humans can sink to. That's not to say that other attempted-genocides weren't evil, but there's a specific weight associated with what happened under the Nazi regime. It's the epitome of evil, one could say. So that makes Magneto all the more sympathetic (IMO). In a world that is filled with human evil, he's literally experienced the worst of the worst of it. And he vows to never let that happen again. I think Ricky Gervais had it right...usually Holocaust related stuff is just there to make things seem "profound" when it really isn't. Really, thinking it over the Mutant thing isn't anything like what happened to Jewish people in WWII. The Nazis really just used the Jewish people as a scapegoat to take over Germany and then try to take over the rest of Europe, I'm sure plenty of Nazis didn't even believe in the racial superiority stuff. Humans fearing mutants actually makes logical sense, by comparison. To say nothing of how all the other people who were the victims of the cleansing are ignored. No one seems to care all that much about the millions of Soviets and Chinese who died horrific deaths.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 18:20:14 GMT
It's not just that Cap was frozen. I'm pretty sure the whole Super Soldier things ages him slowly too. So you don't need to freeze Magneto to make it work. To me, it's important that it's the Holocaust because that's pretty much universally agreed to be the greatest act of systematic evil in human history. It quite literally shows the depths that humans can sink to. That's not to say that other attempted-genocides weren't evil, but there's a specific weight associated with what happened under the Nazi regime. It's the epitome of evil, one could say. So that makes Magneto all the more sympathetic (IMO). In a world that is filled with human evil, he's literally experienced the worst of the worst of it. And he vows to never let that happen again. I think Ricky Gervais had it right...usually Holocaust related stuff is just there to make things seem "profound" when it really isn't. Really, thinking it over the Mutant thing isn't anything like what happened to Jewish people in WWII. The Nazis really just used the Jewish people as a scapegoat to take over Germany and then try to take over the rest of Europe, I'm sure plenty of Nazis didn't even believe in the racial superiority stuff. Humans fearing mutants actually makes logical sense, by comparison. To say nothing of how all the other people who were the victims of the cleansing are ignored. No one seems to care all that much about the millions of Soviets and Chinese who died horrific deaths. Yeah, I don't agree with Ricky Gervais. And highlighting one tragedy doesn't mean you're ignoring others. All those collectivist regimes were evil.
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Post by agentblue on Feb 24, 2017 1:37:53 GMT
Cap has the excuse of being frozen for all that time, Magneto could hypothetically be given a similar origin that he was frozen in some "Experiment on later" laboratory. Or they could just have him the survivor of another genocide. Frankly I always thought it was an exploitative idea to try and use the Holocaust in relation to X-Men. Thats an interesting idea maybe.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Feb 28, 2017 18:46:18 GMT
They could be worked in but not right now. Introducing Mutants and X-Men would result in plot lines that would be very similar to First Class, Days of Future Past, and Apocalypse. It would be the Amazing Spider-Man all over again but worse because it's immediately after those movies.
Even Kevin Fiege has acknowledged that now is not a good time.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Feb 28, 2017 18:51:45 GMT
They could also just kill off most of the Avengers in Infinity Wars, and then make the next phase a "rise of the mutants" phase where the mutants are the new breed of enhanced individuals resulting from the Infinity stones causing havoc with the human DNA. Then maybe leave some of the old Avengers as mentors or something. Probably leave Thor alive because you don't want Asgard to lose it's prince/king. Leave other side characters like Scarlet Witch or even Black Widow and give them a chance to shine in being the mentors of the new mutants. Heck, get Scarlet Witch to be the mentor to a young Xavier. And don't tell me that we shouldn't mess with the X-men storyline to that extent, not after Fox just made Mystique the new leader of the X-men. Actually, Xavier is the leader of the X-Men. Mystique is just the danger room trainer.
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 28, 2017 19:22:49 GMT
Because events that happened in each franchise's universe clearly did not happen in the other. Magneto tried to wipe humanity at least twice before the first MCU movie (Iron Man) even came out. They just don't sync up.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Feb 28, 2017 21:07:04 GMT
Because events that happened in each franchise's universe clearly did not happen in the other. Magneto tried to wipe humanity at least twice before the first MCU movie (Iron Man) even came out. They just don't sync up. Nitpick: Magneto tried to wipe out technology in Apocalypse, not humanity. Apocalypse wanted them alive for him to rule.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2017 0:46:50 GMT
They could also just kill off most of the Avengers in Infinity Wars, and then make the next phase a "rise of the mutants" phase where the mutants are the new breed of enhanced individuals resulting from the Infinity stones causing havoc with the human DNA. Then maybe leave some of the old Avengers as mentors or something. Probably leave Thor alive because you don't want Asgard to lose it's prince/king. Leave other side characters like Scarlet Witch or even Black Widow and give them a chance to shine in being the mentors of the new mutants. Heck, get Scarlet Witch to be the mentor to a young Xavier. And don't tell me that we shouldn't mess with the X-men storyline to that extent, not after Fox just made Mystique the new leader of the X-men. Actually, Xavier is the leader of the X-Men. Mystique is just the danger room trainer. No, Xavier is the head of the school/organization, Cyclops is the leader... or at least he's supposed to be. Cyclops' leadership role is what Mystique is currently filling.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 1, 2017 1:54:29 GMT
Actually, Xavier is the leader of the X-Men. Mystique is just the danger room trainer. No, Xavier is the head of the school/organization, Cyclops is the leader... or at least he's supposed to be. Cyclops' leadership role is what Mystique is currently filling. Actually, Xavier is referred as the leader of the X-Men in the original run of the comics and early Claremont run. Scott became co-leader by age of 20 in comics a couple of years after the team was formed. Why do you think Scott and Ororo had a dual over leadership after Xavier retired?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 1:55:52 GMT
All I hear from people is that mutants can't work in he MCU because if there were any, then they would have showed up by now. Or, it doesn't make sense that The Avengers are beloved, while mutants experience hatred. Here's the thing, ignore all the rules from Fox's X-Men universe. If Fox and Marvel were to make a deal to have X-Men in the MCU, then that might mean that there are a lot less mutants around than there were in Fox's X-Men universe. Which would actually be sticking true to the source material, where mutants were a lot rarer in the early X-Men comics. Unlike Fox's X-Men universe, where mutants are already everywhere. If anything, having The Avengers and other superpower beings around would make it harder to detect a mutant. Because nobody knows what a mutant is yet, so people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Especially if they make them rarer in the MCU. As for why The Avengers are loved, but mutants are hated on, well keep in mind that not everyone loves The Avengers in the MCU. Due to the amount of destruction they have caused. So if they do the same with mutants, like lets say Magneto causing trouble, then that would spark the fear towards mutants. So yeah, it's not really that complicated. I think the concept of mutant could work in the MCU. It's Fantastic Four in the MCU people should be worried about. They're suppose to be famous superheroes, yet not a single mention about them. Even if they gain their powers later, what would make them so fantastic compare to the other superheroes in the MCU? But I digress. What does MCU stand for?
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2017 1:56:35 GMT
If the MCU had the X-Men, they'd be more about the internal conflicts within the team and them struggling with stuff like whether or not Xavier's way (hiding) is really doing any good.
Instead of it being about Xavier and Magneto's differences, with Magneto eating up screentime, it would be more about the X-Men conflicting with themselves.
I think that would work out pretty well.
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