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Post by truecristian on Nov 25, 2019 14:22:26 GMT
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Post by truecristian on Nov 25, 2019 14:23:15 GMT
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 25, 2019 18:47:58 GMT
The US navy knew the Japanese plans Poor decisions by Admiral Nagumo, switching from bombs to torpedoes to bombs Luck
It didn't change the war. Japan lost when it dropped its first bomb on Pearl harbor. But it hastened its downfall
"I'd rather be lucky that good" Vernon "Lefty" Gomez
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Nov 25, 2019 19:57:22 GMT
The US navy knew the Japanese plans Poor decisions by Admiral Nagumo, switching from bombs to torpedoes to bombs Luck
It didn't change the war. Japan lost when it dropped its first bomb on Pearl harbor. But it hastened its downfall
"I'd rather be lucky that good" Vernon "Lefty" Gomez Agreed, but also I think the US had the Japanese code years before the war began. It isn't an easy pill to swallow for many Americans, but it can be done.
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Post by bravomailer on Nov 25, 2019 20:25:43 GMT
By the by, the Japanese navy did not inform the army or state of the four carrier losses until 1945.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 26, 2019 0:17:18 GMT
By the by, the Japanese navy did not inform the army or state of the four carrier losses until 1945. It was routine for the Japanese. I think they reported that they sank 11 US carriers in one battle. The Japanese citizens thought they were winning the war handily until the bombs started falling
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njcardfan
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Post by njcardfan on Nov 26, 2019 12:13:35 GMT
Japan is a great ally now but during the first half of the 20th century they were nothing short of savages. At least the Japanese military. People like to point to things like the My Lai massacre as an example of a war crime but that had nothing on the Rape of Nanking or the Japanese treatment of POW's or other atrocities committed against the Chinese and citizens of Indochina. Hirohito should have been hung for failing to keep a leash on his commanders. Dropping 2 nukes on them was the least that could have happened.
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Post by bravomailer on Nov 26, 2019 16:44:15 GMT
By the by, the Japanese navy did not inform the army or state of the four carrier losses until 1945. It was routine for the Japanese. I think they reported that they sank 11 US carriers in one battle. The Japanese citizens thought they were winning the war handily until the bombs started falling Well, not informing the public of a disaster is quite different from not telling the prime minister and the army.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 26, 2019 17:37:05 GMT
It was routine for the Japanese. I think they reported that they sank 11 US carriers in one battle. The Japanese citizens thought they were winning the war handily until the bombs started falling Well, not informing the public of a disaster is quite different from not telling the prime minister and the army. A lot of Japanese politicians didn't know how bad the war was going. And the IJN and IJA never got along very well, even in the Meiji days.
And Khrushchev didn't tell a lot of Politburo members about putting missiles in Cuba. They woke up one morning with Kennedy saying "Get your damned missiles out Cuba" and they said "What missiles"
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Post by truecristian on Nov 26, 2019 18:18:30 GMT
The US navy knew the Japanese plans Poor decisions by Admiral Nagumo, switching from bombs to torpedoes to bombs Luck
It didn't change the war. Japan lost when it dropped its first bomb on Pearl harbor. But it hastened its downfall
"I'd rather be lucky that good" Vernon "Lefty" Gomez prove it🍼🍼🍼🍼🦑🦑
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Post by theravenking on Nov 27, 2019 23:08:11 GMT
Japan is a great ally now but during the first half of the 20th century they were nothing short of savages. At least the Japanese military. People like to point to things like the My Lai massacre as an example of a war crime but that had nothing on the Rape of Nanking or the Japanese treatment of POW's or other atrocities committed against the Chinese and citizens of Indochina. Hirohito should have been hung for failing to keep a leash on his commanders. Dropping 2 nukes on them was the least that could have happened.
Hirohito was just a pawn. He had no idea what was going on around him. He lived in his own dream world. He was like a child trapped in his palace while people from outside kept manipulating him and tried pushing their own agendas.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 28, 2019 0:04:02 GMT
Japan is a great ally now but during the first half of the 20th century they were nothing short of savages. At least the Japanese military. People like to point to things like the My Lai massacre as an example of a war crime but that had nothing on the Rape of Nanking or the Japanese treatment of POW's or other atrocities committed against the Chinese and citizens of Indochina. Hirohito should have been hung for failing to keep a leash on his commanders. Dropping 2 nukes on them was the least that could have happened.
Hirohito was just a pawn. He had no idea what was going on around him. He lived in his own dream world. He was like a child trapped in his palace while people from outside kept manipulating him and tried pushing their own agendas.
Not even close. Hirohito was briefed on and signed off on every major decision during the war. From Manchuria to the Surrender. Did he make policy, no. But he wasn't a mushroom, fed shit and kept in the dark. It wasn't his place to make policy. The advice given to him when he took over from his whacko father was "Reign, don't rule". And millions would have died on both sides if he hadn't surrendered. Only Hirohito could have done that and that was the one and only decision he made.
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njcardfan
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Post by njcardfan on Nov 28, 2019 3:47:49 GMT
Hirohito was just a pawn. He had no idea what was going on around him. He lived in his own dream world. He was like a child trapped in his palace while people from outside kept manipulating him and tried pushing their own agendas.
Not even close. Hirohito was briefed on and signed off on every major decision during the war. From Manchuria to the Surrender. Did he make policy, no. But he wasn't a mushroom, fed shit and kept in the dark. It wasn't his place to make policy. The advice given to him when he took over from his whacko father was "Reign, don't rule". And millions would have died on both sides if he hadn't surrendered. Only Hirohito could have done that and that was the one and only decision he made.
The war was lost long before Hiroshima but Hirohito listened too much to his military leaders to surrender. If Operation Downfall had taken place, it would have cost millions of lives on both sides. Fun Fact: In preparation for this invasion, the War Department had 500,000 Purple Hearts made. The U.S. military has been drawing from this stock for decades and I believe they still are.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 28, 2019 16:37:12 GMT
Not even close. Hirohito was briefed on and signed off on every major decision during the war. From Manchuria to the Surrender. Did he make policy, no. But he wasn't a mushroom, fed shit and kept in the dark. It wasn't his place to make policy. The advice given to him when he took over from his whacko father was "Reign, don't rule". And millions would have died on both sides if he hadn't surrendered. Only Hirohito could have done that and that was the one and only decision he made.
The war was lost long before Hiroshima but Hirohito listened too much to his military leaders to surrender. If Operation Downfall had taken place, it would have cost millions of lives on both sides. Fun Fact: In preparation for this invasion, the War Department had 500,000 Purple Hearts made. The U.S. military has been drawing from this stock for decades and I believe they still are. The casualties for the invasion of the Home Islands would have been bad for the invaders, but a true Armageddon for the invaded. The pre invasion bombing raids would have made the Spring Incendiary raids look tame. The Japanese Army was training women and children to charge American machine guns with just sticks, making them use up ammunition. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrors but 100x more and 100x on top would have died in Downfall. And the estimates were just for Kyushu and Honshu. The US might have had to take the other islands and the war going into the 1960's
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njcardfan
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Post by njcardfan on Nov 28, 2019 16:38:52 GMT
The war was lost long before Hiroshima but Hirohito listened too much to his military leaders to surrender. If Operation Downfall had taken place, it would have cost millions of lives on both sides. Fun Fact: In preparation for this invasion, the War Department had 500,000 Purple Hearts made. The U.S. military has been drawing from this stock for decades and I believe they still are. The casualties for the invasion of the Home Islands would have been bad for the invaders, but a true Armageddon for the invaded. The pre invasion bombing raids would have made the Spring Incendiary raids look tame. The Japanese Army was training women and children to charge American machine guns with just sticks, making them use up ammunition. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrors but 100x more and 100x on top would have died in Downfall. And the estimates were just for Kyushu and Honshu. The US might have had to take the other islands and the war going into the 1960's "We've always been at war with Eurasia".
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 28, 2019 17:16:38 GMT
The casualties for the invasion of the Home Islands would have been bad for the invaders, but a true Armageddon for the invaded. The pre invasion bombing raids would have made the Spring Incendiary raids look tame. The Japanese Army was training women and children to charge American machine guns with just sticks, making them use up ammunition. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrors but 100x more and 100x on top would have died in Downfall. And the estimates were just for Kyushu and Honshu. The US might have had to take the other islands and the war going into the 1960's"We've always been at war with Eurasia". It would have been Eastasia, but nice reference!!
I know the plans for the invasion of Honshu didn't go any further than the fall of Tokyo. That assumes the death of the Emperor. How would the Japanese dealt with that? Would they have fought on forever? Hokkaido, Shikoku, and all the other island with any garrison, would they have had to be invaded? Would the Japanese people fought to the last in their grief?
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Post by truecristian on Nov 28, 2019 21:28:06 GMT
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Post by theravenking on Nov 28, 2019 22:06:45 GMT
Hirohito was just a pawn. He had no idea what was going on around him. He lived in his own dream world. He was like a child trapped in his palace while people from outside kept manipulating him and tried pushing their own agendas.
Not even close. Hirohito was briefed on and signed off on every major decision during the war. From Manchuria to the Surrender. Did he make policy, no. But he wasn't a mushroom, fed shit and kept in the dark. It wasn't his place to make policy. The advice given to him when he took over from his whacko father was "Reign, don't rule". And millions would have died on both sides if he hadn't surrendered. Only Hirohito could have done that and that was the one and only decision he made.
Hirohito was brought up to believe he was an infallible God. Of course he signed off on everything, because he believed what he was told. He was not a practical man, he didn’t know about life’s complexities. His generals told him the war was a good idea – he trusted them. He was told they were going to win – he believed it. He believed this was his destiny. Up until the last moment he believed in Japanese victory. He was deliberately kept in the dark about the outcome of many decisions. Had they told him that Japan was going to conquer space and fly to the moon, he would've believed that too.
It’s only when he was made to realise his actual situation that he agreed to surrender. Which just shows how little he knew about the truth. Had he been made aware of the immense suffering his people had to endure he might have surrendered earlier. He was no monster. He was just a weak man, badly prepared for the role he had to play in history.
There is an excellent movie about this: The Sun (2005)
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 29, 2019 0:49:27 GMT
Not even close. Hirohito was briefed on and signed off on every major decision during the war. From Manchuria to the Surrender. Did he make policy, no. But he wasn't a mushroom, fed shit and kept in the dark. It wasn't his place to make policy. The advice given to him when he took over from his whacko father was "Reign, don't rule". And millions would have died on both sides if he hadn't surrendered. Only Hirohito could have done that and that was the one and only decision he made.
Hirohito was brought up to believe he was an infallible God. Of course he signed off on everything, because he believed what he was told. He was not a practical man, he didn’t know about life’s complexities. His generals told him the war was a good idea – he trusted them. He was told they were going to win – he believed it. He believed this was his destiny. Up until the last moment he believed in Japanese victory. He was deliberately kept in the dark about the outcome of many decisions. Had they told him that Japan was going to conquer space and fly to the moon, he would've believed that too.
It’s only when he was made to realise his actual situation that he agreed to surrender. Which just shows how little he knew about the truth. Had he been made aware of the immense suffering his people had to endure he might have surrendered earlier. He was no monster. He was just a weak man, badly prepared for the role he had to play in history.
There is an excellent movie about this: The Sun (2005)
The view of Hirohito in the post war era was that he barely knew Japan was at war until Tokyo was fire bombed. He was painted as a somewhat dimwitted puppet who cared more about marine biology that being Emperor. That wasn't true. He did know the war was going badly (you couldn't help notice when bombs were falling). He was totally unprepared to be Emperor but being Emperor was being a figurehead. Only one of his ancestors, his grandfather Meiji, actually did something since the 12th Century. And even Meiji would have had trouble with the turbulent Japan of the interwar period, called "Government by Assassination". Japan had placed all it's hopes on Germany and when that wend down the toilet, on the US unwillingness to pay the price for invasion.
He did criticize the running of the war at times. When the war was going bad (after Leyte Gulf, I believe), he asked the military (I'm paraphrasing) "In 1941, you told me we couldn't end the war in China because China was too big. So then you started a war to conquer the Pacific Ocean. That isn't too big?".
Read Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, by Herbert A. Dix. Very well researched. If only Hirohito's diary could be read, but the Japanese government will never allow it.
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Post by telegonus on Nov 29, 2019 7:40:26 GMT
By the by, the Japanese navy did not inform the army or state of the four carrier losses until 1945. Okay, but was Japan so sealed off from the rest of the world that nothing, nothing whatsoever was reported or heard from across the Pacific in the U.S.A., where Japan surely had contacts if not spies?
There were radio broadcasts, newspapers, magazines. The average Japanese may not have had access to such information but those higher up must surely have had some contact with someone, something from the United States, Hawaii at least, as well as Australia and New Zealand.
Japan was fairly technologically advanced, yet it was a backward, reactionary nation politically. Relatively few people had access to outside sources, but some must surely have heard the news from Midway, or heard of it..
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