Did there really need to be a solo Batman film before BvS?

While they didn't necessarily needed to be one. A buffer movie that showed Batman becoming jaded and careworn would've help sell the Batman of BvS. Instead of telling it or alluding to it. And it probably would've helped sell BvS to people making it make more money.

Now I'd more time to think, if it was a smaller less fx heavy movie in the mold of John Wick *(or maybe with the same budget as Shazam) but with Batman instead of Keanu Reeves, I would have liked that too.

Not only a solo movie I think they needed an entire universe to do BVS right as a major live action movie as they did it, BVS's issue in a lot of ways is it's just a compilation of cool comicbook pay offs without the build up or investment, Batman facing off with Superman doesn't mean anywhere near as much if you do not establish who these characters are, the Death of Superman doesn't mean anywhere near as much if you do not establish what Superman represents to the world, who cares if Superman dies if he's the freaky alien dude who caused an alien invasion which killed hundreds of thousands of people and the public is so willing to believe he's a cold blooded killer?

If you do not establish who Bruce was then what he has become doesn't mean as much, and seeing how the movies haven't exactly painted Batman in the same light as the comics or cartoons that means to most casual fans they don't know big a change it is meant to be for Batman to be the way he is in BVS, the 80/90's films had Batman not giving a fuck about killing, the Nolan movies made Batman more pathetic and mopey, so having a Batman who was broken to the point he quit and abandoned his code isn't as meaningful because yeah why not, the last Batman quit after just a few years and the ones before him threw people down giant bell towers and dropped dynamite down their kecks.

Then there is the fight itself, without the history between them a fight between Batman & Superman is just a spectacle, it doesn't mean anything, which in the comics it does, the big moments of the movie are hollow because they aren't earned at all.

IMO obviously.

That's always felt like more excuse making for BvS sucking.

Batman flat out kills in 3 of the 4 original movies, the only one he doesn't is in Batman & Robin, and Nolan's was closer only in some aspects, but not in others, in the Nolan films Bruce gives up far too easily, he retires and becomes a reclusive hermit after the deaths of Harvey & Rachel, is absolutely played by Talia & Bane, then ultimately quits again for good as soon as they are defeated, even then he causes Ra's death, he accidentally kills Harvey, and causes how Talia dies also, so he still doesn't follow the comics or cartoon Batman's moral code either.

And because of this Batman just being willing to kill and kill Superman isn't as big a deal as it should be, it's meant to be a sign of how far Bruce has fallen but considering he either purposely or unintentionally kills people in all but 1 of his live action movies it does not come across that way.

And I said for BVS to work using the story beats they used it would require more than 1 more movie, because none of the big moments in BVS are earned, Batman's fall could have been shown by a Batman movie but that's about it, the big key moments however are Snyder trying to replicate cool comicbook moments without the earned meaning behind them, what MOS and BVS set up undermines the moments if anything else, because again who cares Superman has died when in that movie universe he's the reason Zod invaded...without the set up like in Superman 2 where Superman had already earned to admiration of the planet...he's considered a menace and even a possible murderer with little real prodding, so when he dies it isn't the earth's greatest hero, an unapparelled beacon of hope and good, he's just a scary powerful alien that at best just half the world fears will turn on them one day, so is him being dead really a bad thing?

And a lot of this stuff some of us can still enjoy due to knowing what these are elements are meant to invoke, but most people don't, then again I don't think any background knowledge no matter how deep makes the whole Martha issue any less cringe worthy considering how they handled it in the film, and even if we know what the moments are meant to invoke doesn't change that's not what the movie did with them.

If you take any other major fictional character, fuck up the backstory then replay a classic moment of their history, does it work still? no because what made that moment special is the history and story leading into it, in DBZ Goku becomes a SSJ after watching his best friend be viciously murdered, this is after seeing Vegeta cruelly killed and Picollo seemingly giving his life to save Goku's the tragedy, pain and anger push Goku past his limit to awaken the SSJ power and it is glorious, now what if Goku didn't like Krillin or Picollo. what if Goku killed Vegeta himself because he was annoying him, or what if Goku actually found all the carnage funny, does his eruption to becoming a SSJ work in that scenario? what if Goku won his 1st and second WMAT in the Dragon Ball series would him winning the 3rd tournament matter as much? or hell if in Dragon Ball what if Goku died in any of his adventures, or even all of them, would his sacrifice in episode I think 5 or 6 of DBZ to stop his brother mean as much? no because it's the fact that Goku survived all that danger in Dragon Ball, only to be killed so swiftly into Z that makes that such a shocking turn of events.

Now if it wasn't BVS but B/S DOJ then yeah you could skip a Batman set up movie if you wanted, a set up would make the team up work better imo but it wouldn't be needed necessarily, the conflict between Batman & Superman needs more set up though if they are to come to blows movie wise.

And as I initially stated it didn't just need a Batman solo movie it needed a shitload of movies to set up the world, BVS should not have been the 2nd film in the DCEU because it doesn't work, not only is Batman not even established but the nuances of Supermans characters standing in the world aren't set up at all for either the lazy Dark Knight Returns or Death Of Superman showdowns to mean a damn thing, if this were a simple team up movie then no Batman wouldn't need a set up movie, but for it being what it was it needed set up and a lot of it.

The fact the movie is such a failure is kind of proof of this, I mean shit TDKR and DOS should not have been played out over the same movie to begin with, but whatever Batman needed a set up movie, happy? sad? itchy butt crack? I dunno whatever.