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Post by sdm3 on Dec 18, 2019 13:11:50 GMT
I already cast my vote for Manning, but I have to say I've always hated the MVP argument. It's a media award, it has nothing to do with what transpired on the field Really, though? Nothing? |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 18, 2019 13:21:22 GMT
I already cast my vote for Manning, but I have to say I've always hated the MVP argument. It's a media award, it has nothing to do with what transpired on the field Really, though? Nothing?Hyperbole, I suppose. Obviously it has to be one of the best players in the league. But it's like the Oscars. Does the best movie win best picture every year? Are Crash or The Artist better films than Saving Private Ryan? An MVP award is the equivalent of a NCAA football national title 50 years ago. Some people get together and decide what impressed them the most, it isn't proven on the field. Peyton was a great player, but I'd argue with stats or wins; I wouldn't argue, "Manning was better because in five different seasons a bunch of other guys said he was great. Case closed."
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Post by sdm3 on Dec 18, 2019 13:34:01 GMT
Hyperbole, I suppose. Obviously it has to be one of the best players in the league. But it's like the Oscars. Does the best movie win best picture every year? Are Crash or The Artist better films than Saving Private Ryan? An MVP award is the equivalent of a NCAA football national title 50 years ago. Some people get together and decide what impressed them the most, it isn't proven on the field. Peyton was a great player, but I'd argue with stats or wins; I wouldn't argue, "Manning was better because in five different seasons a bunch of other guys said he was great. Case closed." Why have there been zero seasons where a “bunch of guys” decided that Brees was the best of the best, despite being one of the most beloved players by the public and the media and consistently having great stats? Obviously the MVP award isn’t completely infallible, but to be honest I’m stunned that you would compare it to an All-Star Game appearance. Why aren’t other popular players racking up MVPs? Was Peyton really that much more popular than anyone else? When did Matt Ryan become Homecoming King? I’m not saying that a single MVP should make the difference between two great players, but for a player to win five times is pretty significant. Which of those seasons can you point to and say “nope, he clearly won that due to the media liking him, and he definitely wasn’t the best player of the season that year”? |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 18, 2019 13:59:26 GMT
Hyperbole, I suppose. Obviously it has to be one of the best players in the league. But it's like the Oscars. Does the best movie win best picture every year? Are Crash or The Artist better films than Saving Private Ryan? An MVP award is the equivalent of a NCAA football national title 50 years ago. Some people get together and decide what impressed them the most, it isn't proven on the field. Peyton was a great player, but I'd argue with stats or wins; I wouldn't argue, "Manning was better because in five different seasons a bunch of other guys said he was great. Case closed." Why have there been zero seasons where a “bunch of guys” decided that Brees was the best of the best, despite being one of the most beloved players by the public and the media and consistently having great stats? Obviously the MVP award isn’t completely infallible, but to be honest I’m stunned that you would compare it to an All-Star Game appearance. Why aren’t other popular players racking up MVPs? Was Peyton really that much more popular than anyone else? When did Matt Ryan become Homecoming King? I’m not saying that a single MVP should make the difference between two great players, but for a player to win five times is pretty significant. Which of those seasons can you point to and say “nope, he clearly won that due to the media liking him, and he definitely wasn’t the best player of the season that year”? I'm not saying there was a year someone was robbed or whatever, I'm saying it doesn't make for a compelling argument on its own. It's relevant to his legacy that people thought he was head and shoulders above his contemporaries, but it's still just an opinion based argument. Someone else's opinion at that. If I was going to make an argument for Peyton, I'd take some of the stuff mentioned by others in this thread. i.e., Multiple franchises built teams around him, his stats (in fewer attempts and games than Brees), 2 SB wins in four appearances, etc. I wouldn't begin and end the conversation with a media award. Maybe it says more about the way we like to argue. I'm known to belabor a point; I enjoy 'making a case' for something with as much data as I can find.
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Post by masterofallgoons on Dec 18, 2019 14:07:33 GMT
Why have there been zero seasons where a “bunch of guys” decided that Brees was the best of the best, despite being one of the most beloved players by the public and the media and consistently having great stats? Obviously the MVP award isn’t completely infallible, but to be honest I’m stunned that you would compare it to an All-Star Game appearance. Why aren’t other popular players racking up MVPs? Was Peyton really that much more popular than anyone else? When did Matt Ryan become Homecoming King? I’m not saying that a single MVP should make the difference between two great players, but for a player to win five times is pretty significant. Which of those seasons can you point to and say “nope, he clearly won that due to the media liking him, and he definitely wasn’t the best player of the season that year”? I'm not saying there was a year someone was robbed or whatever, I'm saying it doesn't make for a compelling argument on its own. It's relevant to his legacy that people thought he was head and shoulders above his contemporaries, but it's still just an opinion based argument. Someone else's opinion at that. If I was going to make an argument for Peyton, I'd take some of the stuff mentioned by others in this thread. i.e., Multiple franchises built teams around him, his stats (in fewer attempts and games than Brees), 2 SB wins in four appearances, etc. I wouldn't begin and end the conversation with a media award. Maybe it says more about the way we like to argue. I'm known to belabor a point; I enjoy 'making a case' for something with as much data as I can find. It's all opinion. You presenting data for why Peyton Manning has had the better career is the same idea, presumably, as the standard for those voting on the MVP each year. The only point to this kind of discussion or any award, like the MVP or the Oscars, or any list of greatest whatevers is for people to agree and disagree and debate. The issue I'd have with the MVP is that the ok only voting block is media members. For all the faults that the Oscars have, they at least comprise the voting block with those actually in the industry. I'd say a combination of both sides would be the best way to go. I think players and coaches should vote as well. |
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Post by sdm3 on Dec 18, 2019 14:07:51 GMT
Why have there been zero seasons where a “bunch of guys” decided that Brees was the best of the best, despite being one of the most beloved players by the public and the media and consistently having great stats? Obviously the MVP award isn’t completely infallible, but to be honest I’m stunned that you would compare it to an All-Star Game appearance. Why aren’t other popular players racking up MVPs? Was Peyton really that much more popular than anyone else? When did Matt Ryan become Homecoming King? I’m not saying that a single MVP should make the difference between two great players, but for a player to win five times is pretty significant. Which of those seasons can you point to and say “nope, he clearly won that due to the media liking him, and he definitely wasn’t the best player of the season that year”? If I was going to make an argument for Peyton, I'd take some of the stuff mentioned by others in this thread. i.e., Multiple franchises built teams around him, his stats (in fewer attempts and games than Brees), 2 SB wins in four appearances, etc. I wouldn't begin and end the conversation with a media award. I just mentioned that particular thing because nobody else had yet, in support of what was already said; clearly I, as a Colts fan, would point to everything else also if I were making the argument by myself. But do I really need to when everyone else has done it for me? And I still have to take umbrage at the pure dismissal of the honor as some totally meaningless “media award”. It’s not like I’m saying “he won x Player of the Month Awards” or “x Fed Ex Air Player of the Week Awards”. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 18, 2019 14:32:36 GMT
If I was going to make an argument for Peyton, I'd take some of the stuff mentioned by others in this thread. i.e., Multiple franchises built teams around him, his stats (in fewer attempts and games than Brees), 2 SB wins in four appearances, etc. I wouldn't begin and end the conversation with a media award. I just mentioned that particular thing because nobody else had yet, in support of what was already said; clearly I, as a Colts fan, would point to everything else also if I were making the argument by myself. But do I really need to when everyone else has done it for me? And I still have to take umbrage at the pure dismissal of the honor as some totally meaningless “media award”. It’s not like I’m saying “he won x Player of the Month Awards” or “x Fed Ex Air Player of the Week Awards”. It's just something else for us to disagree on. Personally, MVPs have as much value to me as FedEx player of the week awards. This board knows how big a Brady fan I am. So much that I'll argue to the death that the Pats success is 80/20 Brady/Belichick (and that might be generous). I have no idea how many MVPs Brady has. 2? 3? I just looked it up, it's 3. He's won 6 titles, but never one in an MVP season. Which is more important to me as a fan? When I'm telling my grandchildren about the great Tom Brady, am I going to tell them how many titles he won, stories of epic comebacks, or just say, "The sports writers really liked him in 2017." You're frustrated that I don't respect the MVP award, but at least I respect Manning. I chose him over Brees without taking the MVP thing into consideration.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 18, 2019 14:40:02 GMT
I'm not saying there was a year someone was robbed or whatever, I'm saying it doesn't make for a compelling argument on its own. It's relevant to his legacy that people thought he was head and shoulders above his contemporaries, but it's still just an opinion based argument. Someone else's opinion at that. If I was going to make an argument for Peyton, I'd take some of the stuff mentioned by others in this thread. i.e., Multiple franchises built teams around him, his stats (in fewer attempts and games than Brees), 2 SB wins in four appearances, etc. I wouldn't begin and end the conversation with a media award. Maybe it says more about the way we like to argue. I'm known to belabor a point; I enjoy 'making a case' for something with as much data as I can find. . You presenting data for why Peyton Manning has had the better career is the same idea, presumably, as the standard for those voting on the MVP each year. The only point to this kind of discussion or any award, like the MVP or the Oscars, or any list of greatest whatevers is for people to agree and disagree and debate. The issue I'd have with the MVP is that the ok only voting block is media members. For all the faults that the Oscars have, they at least comprise the voting block with those actually in the industry. I'd say a combination of both sides would be the best way to go. I think players and coaches should vote as well. This is my point. We're debating our opinions. MVPs isn't even a stat, it's an award based on opinion. So arguing MVPs is arguing someone else's opinion. "So and so is great because these guys said he's great. See? He's great." Data has substance. "So and so is great, look at these stats and the number of championships. Clearly he was better." What you do with it still comes down to opinion-- as you said, that's the fun and the whole point of sports debate. But which of the two examples made a more compelling argument?
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Post by masterofallgoons on Dec 18, 2019 14:59:12 GMT
It's all opinion. You presenting data for why Peyton Manning has had the better career is the same idea, presumably, as the standard for those voting on the MVP each year. The only point to this kind of discussion or any award, like the MVP or the Oscars, or any list of greatest whatevers is for people to agree and disagree and debate. The issue I'd have with the MVP is that the ok only voting block is media members. For all the faults that the Oscars have, they at least comprise the voting block with those actually in the industry. I'd say a combination of both sides would be the best way to go. I think players and coaches should vote as well. This is my point. We're debating our opinions. MVPs isn't even a stat, it's an award based on opinion. So arguing MVPs is arguing someone else's opinion. "So and so is great because these guys said he's great. See? He's great." Data has substance. "So and so is great, look at these stats and the number of championships. Clearly he was better." What you do with it still comes down to opinion-- as you said, that's the fun and the whole point of sports debate. But which of the two examples made a more compelling argument? Stats are objective and yet subjective at the same time. They are hard data, but what they mean is nearly entirely up to interpretation considering how much those numbers are contingent on other players and the team game. And some stats mean more than others. Passer rating for instance does not have the all encompassing meaning that it was intended to. If you ever have the grave misfortune of hearing idiots argue on ESPN they'll tell you the QBR is not only a statistic, but 'the one that counts' when it is in fact fictional nonsense.... sorry lost the thread here for a second... As much as MVP is just an opinion based award, it is voted on by supposed 'experts' who take it seriously. Does that mean it's always correct and completely infallible? No, of course not. But I don't think that Manning's 5 MVPs are inconsequential. If nothing else they show you the status that he had at the time, and as part of a whole body of work it doesn't contribute to his greatness, but it is very much a reflection of his greatness. To your point, Brees not having an MVP doesn't really take away from his career. I think most people would have assumed he did. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 18, 2019 15:30:55 GMT
This is my point. We're debating our opinions. MVPs isn't even a stat, it's an award based on opinion. So arguing MVPs is arguing someone else's opinion. "So and so is great because these guys said he's great. See? He's great." Data has substance. "So and so is great, look at these stats and the number of championships. Clearly he was better." What you do with it still comes down to opinion-- as you said, that's the fun and the whole point of sports debate. But which of the two examples made a more compelling argument? Stats are objective and yet subjective at the same time. They are hard data, but what they mean is nearly entirely up to interpretation considering how much those numbers are contingent on other players and the team game. And some stats mean more than others. Passer rating for instance does not have the all encompassing meaning that it was intended to. If you ever have the grave misfortune of hearing idiots argue on ESPN they'll tell you the QBR is not only a statistic, but 'the one that counts' when it is in fact fictional nonsense.... sorry lost the thread here for a second... As much as MVP is just an opinion based award, it is voted on by supposed 'experts' who take it seriously. Does that mean it's always correct and completely infallible? No, of course not. But I don't think that Manning's 5 MVPs are inconsequential. If nothing else they show you the status that he had at the time, and as part of a whole body of work it doesn't contribute to his greatness, but it is very much a reflection of his greatness. To your point, Brees not having an MVP doesn't really take away from his career. I think most people would have assumed he did. And that was really the point of my Oscar comparison. A movie isn't great because it won an Oscar, nor is it inferior because it didn't. People are fickle. They have their favorites for all kinds of reasons. As I said earlier, 5 MVPs is an important part of any player's legacy because it suggests that the majority of people covering the sport thought he was a superior player. I just don't see it as a be all, end all argument the way some people seem to. Also agree that stats don't tell the whole story, which is why I'd never rely on stats alone to make an argument. But at least in my eyes, stats are more informative than a popularity contest. Whenever I get involved in a sports debate, I argue winning, I argue stats, I argue anecdotes that showed me greatness. None of that stuff is universal truth, it's all subjective because even the stats can have a backstory. But it's all part of the formula. My formula has never included individual media awards unless the argument is specifically about how the player is viewed by the media.
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Post by bluerisk on Dec 18, 2019 15:31:22 GMT
So far Manning, but I like Brees better, and his story isn't over by now.
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Post by masterofallgoons on Dec 18, 2019 15:47:15 GMT
Stats are objective and yet subjective at the same time. They are hard data, but what they mean is nearly entirely up to interpretation considering how much those numbers are contingent on other players and the team game. And some stats mean more than others. Passer rating for instance does not have the all encompassing meaning that it was intended to. If you ever have the grave misfortune of hearing idiots argue on ESPN they'll tell you the QBR is not only a statistic, but 'the one that counts' when it is in fact fictional nonsense.... sorry lost the thread here for a second... As much as MVP is just an opinion based award, it is voted on by supposed 'experts' who take it seriously. Does that mean it's always correct and completely infallible? No, of course not. But I don't think that Manning's 5 MVPs are inconsequential. If nothing else they show you the status that he had at the time, and as part of a whole body of work it doesn't contribute to his greatness, but it is very much a reflection of his greatness. To your point, Brees not having an MVP doesn't really take away from his career. I think most people would have assumed he did. And that was really the point of my Oscar comparison. A movie isn't great because it won an Oscar, nor is it inferior because it didn't. People are fickle. They have their favorites for all kinds of reasons. As I said earlier, 5 MVPs is an important part of any player's legacy because it suggests that the majority of people covering the sport thought he was a superior player. I just don't see it as a be all, end all argument the way some people seem to. Also agree that stats don't tell the whole story, which is why I'd never rely on stats alone to make an argument. But at least in my eyes, stats are more informative than a popularity contest. Whenever I get involved in a sports debate, I argue winning, I argue stats, I argue anecdotes that showed me greatness. None of that stuff is universal truth, it's all subjective because even the stats can have a backstory. But it's all part of the formula. My formula has never included individual media awards unless the argument is specifically about how the player is viewed by the media. I don't think we are too far apart in our arguments here. I just think the MVPs (especially since he won fucking 5 of them), do carry SOME weight. And they, along with a whole host of other evidence, contribute to a legacy of greatness. They're not everything, but I think they are part of it. |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 18, 2019 15:51:56 GMT
Hyperbole, I suppose. Obviously it has to be one of the best players in the league. But it's like the Oscars. Does the best movie win best picture every year? Are Crash or The Artist better films than Saving Private Ryan? An MVP award is the equivalent of a NCAA football national title 50 years ago. Some people get together and decide what impressed them the most, it isn't proven on the field. Peyton was a great player, but I'd argue with stats or wins; I wouldn't argue, "Manning was better because in five different seasons a bunch of other guys said he was great. Case closed." I agree in principle, but I think it is relevant here. Was there ever really a moment in any season where you thought Drew Brees was the best player in the NFL? I thought that about Manning many years.
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 18, 2019 18:00:51 GMT
Agreed. Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were bums. Did Harrison and Wayne make the NFL 100 All-time team like Gronkowski and Moss?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 18, 2019 18:06:36 GMT
Agreed. Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were bums. Did Harrison and Wayne make the NFL 100 All-time team like Gronkowski and Moss? Were they not great receivers?
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 18, 2019 18:07:02 GMT
Agreed. Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were bums. Did Harrison and Wayne make the NFL 100 All-time team like Gronkowski and Moss? I have no idea if they made the NFL 100 but I’ll assume they didn’t since you’re asking. But Harrison and Wayne are number 5 and 10 respectively all-time in receptions, 9 and 10 respectively all time in receiving yardage, and 5 and 24 respectively all time in receiving TDs. It’s not like Manning was throwing to Nelson Agholor. |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 18, 2019 20:56:31 GMT
Did Harrison and Wayne make the NFL 100 All-time team like Gronkowski and Moss? I have no idea if they made the NFL 100 but I’ll assume they didn’t since you’re asking. But Harrison and Wayne are number 5 and 10 respectively all-time in receptions, 9 and 10 respectively all time in receiving yardage, and 5 and 24 respectively all time in receiving TDs. It’s not like Manning was throwing to Nelson Agholor. People forget about Marvin Harrison. To this day he was the best route runner I've ever seen.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Dec 18, 2019 22:14:22 GMT
I have no idea if they made the NFL 100 but I’ll assume they didn’t since you’re asking. But Harrison and Wayne are number 5 and 10 respectively all-time in receptions, 9 and 10 respectively all time in receiving yardage, and 5 and 24 respectively all time in receiving TDs. It’s not like Manning was throwing to Nelson Agholor. People forget about Marvin Harrison. To this day he was the best route runner I've ever seen. One could even say he was killer. |
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Post by hehatesshe on Dec 18, 2019 23:01:42 GMT
Did Harrison and Wayne make the NFL 100 All-time team like Gronkowski and Moss? I have no idea if they made the NFL 100 but I’ll assume they didn’t since you’re asking. But Harrison and Wayne are number 5 and 10 respectively all-time in receptions, 9 and 10 respectively all time in receiving yardage, and 5 and 24 respectively all time in receiving TDs. It’s not like Manning was throwing to Nelson Agholor. I agree. I didn't even know Moss and Gronk had made it. Because I don't care, and besides DixieChicks Fan, I'm not sure if anyone cares. Reminds me of the commercial Brady and half the NFL were in and Brady was wearing his rings. DixieChicks desperately tried to hold that against him. I find that on par with this "top 100" nonsense. |
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Post by twothousandonemark on Dec 18, 2019 23:16:08 GMT
The poll results aren't as close as this discussion seems to have panned out.
I do think it's Manning, yet Brees is nearer than ppl think.
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