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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 11:30:28 GMT
But why wouldn’t you? I consider it a dick thing to do because it would cause a vulnerable person suffering, and I think it’s important not to do that. But your whole premise here is that people’s suffering doesn’t actually matter. It isn’t something I just blindly assumed of you, it’s literally a direct result of what you said. If you have a problem with it, maybe reconsider your premise. You can see my post above. I don't need to feed my ego by attempting to shatter the illusion for others. You're not going to tell children that Santa Claus isn't real. Your position lacks consistency.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Dec 28, 2019 11:42:09 GMT
God does not exist so he does not allow anything.
The real question is "Why does humans allow suffering?" Because its humans and not some made up creature in the sky that allows suffering.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Dec 28, 2019 11:47:23 GMT
I find the question 'Why would God let us suffer' to be a strange one. First, when we ask that question we're assuming for the sake of argument that 'God' exists. However, if 'God' exists then any suffering in this world gains a different perspective. There is no religious scenario where God exists but when you die 'that's it'. So if we're presuming that 'God' exists to ask 'Why does He allow suffering', any amount of suffering we have here is nothing when measured against an eternal afterlife. You might as well ask 'Why do we allow people to get scared on roller-coasters'? Because if 'God' exists then any suffering here is as transient and temporary as a feeling of fear on an amusement park ride. Better question: who are you to question God?  Who are you to question those that question the religious notion of God? What or who is God?
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Dec 28, 2019 11:56:00 GMT
I find the question 'Why would God let us suffer' to be a strange one. First, when we ask that question we're assuming for the sake of argument that 'God' exists. However, if 'God' exists then any suffering in this world gains a different perspective. There is no religious scenario where God exists but when you die 'that's it'. So if we're presuming that 'God' exists to ask 'Why does He allow suffering', any amount of suffering we have here is nothing when measured against an eternal afterlife. If you ever come across a traumatised survivor of some horrific crime, you should say that to them. As you stand over the broken and bleeding body of someone who is weeping in terror, you should say "You know what? This suffering of yours doesn't matter at all. It's nothing. It's not even the slightest bit of a problem." You should definitely do that. I wouldn't ever do that, because I'm not a colossal dick. But you? Absolutely. I am a little confused as to why you have been triggered by Sam’s post and made some point about something as though he is talking literally.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 12:24:33 GMT
If you ever come across a traumatised survivor of some horrific crime, you should say that to them. As you stand over the broken and bleeding body of someone who is weeping in terror, you should say "You know what? This suffering of yours doesn't matter at all. It's nothing. It's not even the slightest bit of a problem." You should definitely do that. I wouldn't ever do that, because I'm not a colossal dick. But you? Absolutely. I am a little confused as to why you have been triggered by Sam’s post and made some point about something as though he is talking literally. I am a little confused as to why you think I was "triggered". The point he made was ridiculous. I pointed that out. He didn't like it. The end.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 28, 2019 12:32:42 GMT
If you believe something you wouldn't say to the people that belief is regarding, then maybe you should reconsider that belief (assuming hypothetical people are no danger to you, that is). Are you going to go to the mall and tell all the 5 year old's that Santa Claus is fake because you know in your heart that Santa Claus isn't real? ..that's why you don't tell suffering people that this world is an illusion. A belief about Santa is not a belief about the kids who believe in him; try another analogy.
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 28, 2019 15:49:39 GMT
The problem with this argument is an infinity with no suffering would still be preferable to an infinity with a little bit of suffering. A maximally good God should therefore prefer the former.
For a theodicy to work, I think it needs to show that suffering is necessary for some greater good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 16:52:22 GMT
I just often wonder how allowing for believing in a creator and that Jesus showed the people of the world how to live the type of life that creator hoped we would make of it, translates into this Omnigod who controls everything in a micromanagerial way while somehow still giving us free will.
I try to find in the Bible, a wonderful collection of ancient texts by many different authors, where it actually says that, and beyond taking words of the praise of men to a creator quite literally, I'm having trouble envisioning the creator in the way religion has interpreted it for us.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Dec 28, 2019 17:18:50 GMT
I just often wonder how allowing for believing in a creator and that Jesus showed the people of the world how to live the type of life that creator hoped we would make of it, translates into this Omnigod who controls everything in a micromanagerial way while somehow still giving us free will. I try to find in the Bible, a wonderful collection of ancient texts by many different authors, where it actually says that, and beyond taking words of the praise of men to a creator quite literally, I'm having trouble envisioning the creator in the way religion has interpreted it for us. That was a very honest post. I wish I had a better answer than this: I felt that way, too, many years ago, and I became agnostic because of it. First, an agnostic theist, then an agnostic atheist. But that was my personal journey. Earlier humans had a limited awareness of the world around them, and their religious beliefs were influenced by that. Now, in this age of burgeoning science, that view of a supreme being is inconsistent with what you term an Omnigod. Good word, actually. And, where does free will fit in all of that? Given the vastness of the universe, how could there be a god who created everything, yet still interacts with individual humans? And there are countless variations of human religions, with equally countless contradictions of what is right and what is wrong.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2019 17:21:00 GMT
The problem with this argument is an infinity with no suffering would still be preferable to an infinity with a little bit of suffering. A maximally good God should therefore prefer the former. For a theodicy to work, I think it needs to show that suffering is necessary for some greater good. You don't think an eternity of bliss (or absence of suffering) would get boring? How would you know what you're experiencing is a lack of suffering if you've never experienced suffering?
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2019 17:24:07 GMT
Are you going to go to the mall and tell all the 5 year old's that Santa Claus is fake because you know in your heart that Santa Claus isn't real? ..that's why you don't tell suffering people that this world is an illusion. A belief about Santa is not a belief about the kids who believe in him; try another analogy. The analogy was that kids believe that Santa is real in the same way unconscious people believe this Universe is 'real'.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2019 17:26:01 GMT
You can see my post above. I don't need to feed my ego by attempting to shatter the illusion for others. You're not going to tell children that Santa Claus isn't real. Your position lacks consistency. How so? It seems obvious that if someone is going to ask 'Why does God allow suffering' you have to take into consideration the implications of what God existing would mean.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 17:28:39 GMT
I just often wonder how allowing for believing in a creator and that Jesus showed the people of the world how to live the type of life that creator hoped we would make of it, translates into this Omnigod who controls everything in a micromanagerial way while somehow still giving us free will. I try to find in the Bible, a wonderful collection of ancient texts by many different authors, where it actually says that, and beyond taking words of the praise of men to a creator quite literally, I'm having trouble envisioning the creator in the way religion has interpreted it for us. That was a very honest post. I wish I had a better answer than this: I felt that way, too, many years ago, and I became agnostic because of it. First, an agnostic theist, then an agnostic atheist. But that was my personal journey. Earlier humans had a limited awareness of the world around them, and their religious beliefs were influenced by that. Now, in this age of burgeoning science, that view of a supreme being is inconsistent with what you term an Omnigod. Good word, actually. And, where does free will fit in all of that? Given the vastness of the universe, how could there be a god who created everything, yet still interacts with individual humans? And there are countless variations of human religions, with equally countless contradictions of what is right and what is wrong. I've tried life with and without belief. When I live in belief, the fruits of the spirit talked of are so very apparent to me, and deep down, I know that they come from the outside. That is more than enough for me to sustain faith. I understand others don't apparently feel that same reward, and I don't know why, I'm just thankful I'm receiving it and wish all could share in it.
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Post by northern on Dec 28, 2019 17:33:04 GMT
Better question: who are you to question God? Who are you to question those that question the religious notion of God? What or who is God? Who are you to question my question of his questioning.😛 |
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Post by northern on Dec 28, 2019 17:35:29 GMT
Better question: who are you to question God? I'm not questioning 'God'. (however you define it). I'm questioning the logic of those who ask the question 'Why would God allow suffering?' IMO it's an illogical question. Indeed it is so why bother asking that question? |
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2019 17:44:59 GMT
I'm not questioning 'God'. (however you define it). I'm questioning the logic of those who ask the question 'Why would God allow suffering?' IMO it's an illogical question. Indeed it is so why bother asking that question? I'm not asking that question. I'm questioning the logic of that question. ...I would hope that was obvious.
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Post by northern on Dec 28, 2019 17:47:10 GMT
Indeed it is so why bother asking that question? I'm not asking that question. I'm questioning the logic of that question. ...I would hope that was obvious. You just said it was an illogical question so why ask it was my point. |
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2019 17:56:40 GMT
I'm not asking that question. I'm questioning the logic of that question. ...I would hope that was obvious. You just said it was an illogical question so why ask it was my point. People are curious I guess. Suffering is a universal experience, it's natural to question why a supreme deity would allow it to happen.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 28, 2019 18:59:34 GMT
A question that has never bothered me because I am totally disinterested in existence of God. That said this question is more often asked by people of western world. The Buddhist do ask questions about suffering but they are more interested in finding out how to end suffering that its cause. Although they do probably believe that attachment is the cause of suffering.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 28, 2019 19:47:38 GMT
I find the question 'Why would God let us suffer' to be a strange one. First, when we ask that question we're assuming for the sake of argument that 'God' exists. However, if 'God' exists then any suffering in this world gains a different perspective. There is no religious scenario where God exists but when you die 'that's it'. So if we're presuming that 'God' exists to ask 'Why does He allow suffering', any amount of suffering we have here is nothing when measured against an eternal afterlife. You might as well ask 'Why do we allow people to get scared on roller-coasters'? Because if 'God' exists then any suffering here is as transient and temporary as a feeling of fear on an amusement park ride. One way of approaching this question, and how you feel about any answer, is to ask oneself how one would feel about the deity if God did not allow suffering. If you would be indifferent then arguably you don't care about suffering If you would think less of God then presumably you'd prefer a deity who allows suffering If you'd think more of the deity, then you'd rather God would not allow it and, logically, think less of him since he presently does.
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