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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 7, 2022 17:21:24 GMT
Nalkarj I used to like M,SW but now that I bought some seasonal disks at a sale ... I find that they have not (as the kiddies say) "held up well". Some episodes are fun mostly to see the olde timey guest stars. Small doses, and not binging, helps. If analyzing is part of the fun ... why ever stop ? MSW works for me almost entirely because of Lansbury. It has a few good episodes (I’m still very fond of the mystery plots in “Murder Takes the Bus” and the 12 Angry Men pastiche, “Trial by Error”), but Lansbury is so good that she’s enjoyable to watch even in the dreadful episodes. (Ironically, one of my favorite episodes, “The Grand Old Lady,” is Lansburyless, but in that case I like it because I like the ’40s and ocean liners.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 19:16:12 GMT
Nalkarj I used to like M,SW but now that I bought some seasonal disks at a sale ... I find that they have not (as the kiddies say) "held up well". Some episodes are fun mostly to see the olde timey guest stars. Small doses, and not binging, helps. If analyzing is part of the fun ... why ever stop ? MSW works for me almost entirely because of Lansbury. It has a few good episodes (I’m still very fond of the mystery plots in “Murder Takes the Bus” and the 12 Angry Men pastiche, “Trial by Error”), but Lansbury is so good that she’s enjoyable to watch even in the dreadful episodes. (Ironically, one of my favorite episodes, “The Grand Old Lady,” is Lansburyless, but in that case I like it because I like the ’40s and ocean liners.) I also find old ocean liners absolutely fascinating. Part of it is the ultra classy vintage 20s-40s style and part of it is the allure brought on by the fact that the two most famous ones sank. Just look at how cool these interiors are (From Queen Mary and Lusitania…
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 7, 2022 19:44:46 GMT
I also find old ocean liners absolutely fascinating. Part of it is the ultra classy vintage 20s-40s style and part of it is the allure brought on by the fact that the two most famous ones sank. Just look at how cool these interiors are (From Queen Mary and Lusitania… A squid after my own heart! Oddly, I’m totally uninterested by cruises, yet I’ve always wanted to go on a transatlantic voyage (sans, of course, deadly iceberg). That’s probably because of the whole old-school glamour thing. John Dickson Carr wrote a pretty great mystery/spy thriller about a murder on a transatlantic liner in the middle of WWII. Too bad that, like almost all of Carr’s work, was never made into a movie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 23:10:05 GMT
Knives Out! Never Seen It!
Loved this one. So much fun. I was definitely thrown when they show the death a quarter of the way through. It gets to have its cake and eat it to, so to speak, by showing the POV of the “killer” (even though she’s not really a killer) as she tries to evade detection and it also ultimately gets to have the classic whodunnit reveal of the real “killer”. Really enjoyed it. Very clever. Very entertaining.
Also: was (briefly) happy to learn there would be a sequel, until I realized it’s going to be a Netflix exclusive. That really sucks because I would’ve been excited to watch a movie like this in the theater.
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Post by Penn Guinn on Jan 7, 2022 23:20:39 GMT
Carr and Dick Francis have been woefully neglected as far as movies OR TV productions of their many works. Also no Cat Who or Nevada Barr stories ... or are they around and I have missed them somehow ?
Theories as to why ?
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Post by Penn Guinn on Jan 8, 2022 0:02:41 GMT
OK ... Dick Francis credits mdb.com/name/nm0290139/Not all that many considering how much space he takes up on my bookshelf! Writer: TV (7 credits) 1989Dick Francis: Twice Shy (TV Movie) (novel) 1989Dick Francis: In the Frame (TV Movie) (novel) 1989Dick Francis: Blood Sport (TV Movie) (novel) 1987V poslednej chvíli (TV Movie) (book) The Dick Francis Thriller: The Racing Game (TV Series) (story consultant - 6 episodes, 1979 - 1980) - Needle (1980) ... (story consultant) - Horsenap (1979) ... (story consultant) - Horses for Courses (1979) ... (story consultant) - Gambling Lady (1979) ... (story consultant) - Trackdown (1979) ... (story consultant) - Odds Against (1979) ... (novel) / (story consultant) 1977 Favorite (TV Movie) (novel) Movie (1 credit) 1974Dead Cert (novel)
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 8, 2022 16:23:41 GMT
Knives Out! Never Seen It! Loved this one. So much fun. I was definitely thrown when they show the death a quarter of the way through. It gets to have its cake and eat it to, so to speak, by showing the POV of the “killer” (even though she’s not really a killer) as she tries to evade detection and it also ultimately gets to have the classic whodunnit reveal of the real “killer”. Really enjoyed it. Very clever. Very entertaining. Also: was (briefly) happy to learn there would be a sequel, until I realized it’s going to be a Netflix exclusive. That really sucks because I would’ve been excited to watch a movie like this in the theater. Hooray! Happy you loved this one. It’s one of my favorite movies of recent years. Agreed with you that it gets to have its cake and eat it too, uniting the Agatha Christie-style whodunit and the Columbo-style “howcatchem.” That blend is hard to pull off; “Golden Age” mystery writer Anthony Berkeley tried it a few times, but I think Rian Johnson did a better job in every way. Re: plotting, that “you did it” clue especially impresses me; it’s the kind of thing Stephen Sondheim, whose “Losing My Mind” makes it onto the soundtrack, would love. I did figure out the generalities of what was up before Daniel Craig reveals the solution, but that’s not a flaw at all, and I was totally surprised by a bunch of plot points and clues. It’s also just such a well-made movie, isn’t it? I love the use of color, a bunch of the lines (“the doughnut hole has a hole in its center,” “I anticipate the terminus of Gravity’s Rainbow”), and the Craig performance (“Kentucky-fried Poirot,” one review called it), which is a thing of beauty: hammy, but never enough that the movie becomes camp. My only criticisms, really, would be that the format prevents the great supporting cast from getting that much to do and that some of the “you are a good person” lines are laid on a bit thick. We know she’s a good person! But those are minor. As for the sequel, is Netflix not going to release it in theaters at all? I too am annoyed Netflix owns it, but I’ll be a little less irritated if they release it in theaters. (How many theaters, of course, is an open question.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2022 19:28:25 GMT
Knives Out! Never Seen It! Loved this one. So much fun. I was definitely thrown when they show the death a quarter of the way through. It gets to have its cake and eat it to, so to speak, by showing the POV of the “killer” (even though she’s not really a killer) as she tries to evade detection and it also ultimately gets to have the classic whodunnit reveal of the real “killer”. Really enjoyed it. Very clever. Very entertaining. Also: was (briefly) happy to learn there would be a sequel, until I realized it’s going to be a Netflix exclusive. That really sucks because I would’ve been excited to watch a movie like this in the theater. Hooray! Happy you loved this one. It’s one of my favorite movies of recent years. Agreed with you that it gets to have its cake and eat it too, uniting the Agatha Christie-style whodunit and the Columbo-style “howcatchem.” That blend is hard to pull off; “Golden Age” mystery writer Anthony Berkeley tried it a few times, but I think Rian Johnson did a better job in every way. Re: plotting, that “you did it” clue especially impresses me; it’s the kind of thing Stephen Sondheim, whose “Losing My Mind” makes it onto the soundtrack, would love. I did figure out the generalities of what was up before Daniel Craig reveals the solution, but that’s not a flaw at all, and I was totally surprised by a bunch of plot points and clues. It’s also just such a well-made movie, isn’t it? I love the use of color, a bunch of the lines (“the doughnut hole has a hole in its center,” “I anticipate the terminus of Gravity’s Rainbow”), and the Craig performance (“Kentucky-fried Poirot,” one review called it), which is a thing of beauty: hammy, but never enough that the movie becomes camp. My only criticisms, really, would be that the format prevents the great supporting cast from getting that much to do and that some of the “you are a good person” lines are laid on a bit thick. We know she’s a good person! But those are minor. As for the sequel, is Netflix not going to release it in theaters at all? I too am annoyed Netflix owns it, but I’ll be a little less irritated if they release it in theaters. (How many theaters, of course, is an open question.) I was thinking back on the clues and how I misinterpreted or flat out missed some… Like when the idea of dogs judging good character is blatantly set up, dogs are heard barking in the night, and then we see the dogs barking at Chris Evans! my thinking at the time was “Ah. Okay. They want us to suspect him! Therefore he’s probably not involved”… but did Rian Johnson know the audience would do this and insert this as a double bluff? Or… was it blatant foreshadowing that gives the ending away and I just over-thought it? I didn’t figure out as much as you, but I did basically assume that Evans was involved the moment they go to the restaurant together. But that’s not so much based on clues as it is the fact that he’s suddenly her willing accomplice and has tons of screen time. And he happens to be there when the aftermath of the arson is witnessed to confirm “innocence” in the mind of the audience. So it did get a little obvious at that point in terms of hiding the true suspect. But again, the reveal was so good and so clever that it’s all forgiven. As for Netflix, sadly, when they do theatrical releases they are very limited. You know how I feel about straight to streaming stuff so I won’t go on about that again! 😎 But yeah, very disappointed by this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 1:17:45 GMT
Knives Out! Never Seen It! Loved this one. So much fun. I was definitely thrown when they show the death a quarter of the way through. It gets to have its cake and eat it to, so to speak, by showing the POV of the “killer” (even though she’s not really a killer) as she tries to evade detection and it also ultimately gets to have the classic whodunnit reveal of the real “killer”. Really enjoyed it. Very clever. Very entertaining. Also: was (briefly) happy to learn there would be a sequel, until I realized it’s going to be a Netflix exclusive. That really sucks because I would’ve been excited to watch a movie like this in the theater. Hooray! Happy you loved this one. It’s one of my favorite movies of recent years. Agreed with you that it gets to have its cake and eat it too, uniting the Agatha Christie-style whodunit and the Columbo-style “howcatchem.” That blend is hard to pull off; “Golden Age” mystery writer Anthony Berkeley tried it a few times, but I think Rian Johnson did a better job in every way. Re: plotting, that “you did it” clue especially impresses me; it’s the kind of thing Stephen Sondheim, whose “Losing My Mind” makes it onto the soundtrack, would love. I did figure out the generalities of what was up before Daniel Craig reveals the solution, but that’s not a flaw at all, and I was totally surprised by a bunch of plot points and clues. It’s also just such a well-made movie, isn’t it? I love the use of color, a bunch of the lines (“the doughnut hole has a hole in its center,” “I anticipate the terminus of Gravity’s Rainbow”), and the Craig performance (“Kentucky-fried Poirot,” one review called it), which is a thing of beauty: hammy, but never enough that the movie becomes camp. My only criticisms, really, would be that the format prevents the great supporting cast from getting that much to do and that some of the “you are a good person” lines are laid on a bit thick. We know she’s a good person! But those are minor. As for the sequel, is Netflix not going to release it in theaters at all? I too am annoyed Netflix owns it, but I’ll be a little less irritated if they release it in theaters. (How many theaters, of course, is an open question.) I’m curious what you mean by the line in bold above. Do you just mean the color grading and aesthetic or was there deliberate use of specific colors? I am actually going to watch again tonight to pay closer attention to things like this.
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 9, 2022 2:41:52 GMT
I was thinking back on the clues and how I misinterpreted or flat out missed some… Like when the idea of dogs judging good character is blatantly set up, dogs are heard barking in the night, and then we see the dogs barking at Chris Evans! my thinking at the time was “Ah. Okay. They want us to suspect him! Therefore he’s probably not involved”… but did Rian Johnson know the audience would do this and insert this as a double bluff? Or… was it blatant foreshadowing that gives the ending away and I just over-thought it? Oof, now I’ve got to rewatch. I remember thinking something about the dogs on my first viewing but now can’t remember what it was!I think we actually figured out the same amount! I first had suspicions at that same scene and figured some things out from there—also based less on clues than on feelings about storytelling and how I would plot in this situation. Oy.I didn’t mean anything specific, though I remember a lot of warm browns and muted yellows, just the whole general aesthetic. The colors just looked strong, which I welcome in an era when so many movies look so gray (and/or are filled with your, er, beloved orange and teal).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 2:56:32 GMT
I was thinking back on the clues and how I misinterpreted or flat out missed some… Like when the idea of dogs judging good character is blatantly set up, dogs are heard barking in the night, and then we see the dogs barking at Chris Evans! my thinking at the time was “Ah. Okay. They want us to suspect him! Therefore he’s probably not involved”… but did Rian Johnson know the audience would do this and insert this as a double bluff? Or… was it blatant foreshadowing that gives the ending away and I just over-thought it? Oof, now I’ve got to rewatch. I remember thinking something about the dogs on my first viewing but now can’t remember what it was!I think we actually figured out the same amount! I first had suspicions at that same scene and figured some things out from there—also based less on clues than on feelings about storytelling and how I would plot in this situation. Oy.I didn’t mean anything specific, though I remember a lot of warm browns and muted yellows, just the whole general aesthetic. The colors just looked strong, which I welcome in an era when so many movies look so visually gray (and/or are filled with your, er, beloved orange and teal). I’m excited to see how it holds up on a rewatch. I’m doing it tonight just so it’s all fresh in my mind. Will post more thoughts tomorrow! For the color: Ah ok. I was thinking maybe there was some symbolism in the color that I missed. I did like the color grading too. As you know, that’s something that can annoy me in modern films. Netflix: Yup. The more I think about this the more it annoys me. Especially when reading articles/reddit comments about it online where people say things like “makes sense. Streeeeaaaaming is the future.” So irritating that the masses are embracing this type of trend. This could’ve been an excellent theatrical franchise. Oh well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2022 1:31:49 GMT
Second viewing of Knives Out was still immensely enjoyable. It really allows you to appreciate how good the screenplay is. So much of the early dialogue is important without calling attention to itself and therefore easily missed the first time. Repeat viewings are highly recommended.
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 10, 2022 15:08:10 GMT
Carr and Dick Francis have been woefully neglected as far as movies OR TV productions of their many works. Also no Cat Who or Nevada Barr stories ... or are they around and I have missed them somehow ? Theories as to why ? Not sure on Francis, Cat Who…, or Nevada Barr (actually, I don’t think I’d even ever heard of Barr!), but with Carr I know multiple studios have made multiple attempts that all sputtered. Carr’s grandson posted on a Golden Age mystery forum maybe 15-20 years ago that he and his sister were working with the BBC and a PBS affiliate to produce a Carr TV show… I can’t remember which JDC book they were adapting first (I seem to remember it was one of the early, less famous Henri Bencolin books), but I think they had written a script. But either way the companies ended up not going with the project. The never-adapted JDC book that would make the best movie, I’ve always thought, is The Crooked Hinge, which involves rival claimants to a fortune and title, the sinking of the Titanic, a seemingly impossible murder watched by honest witnesses, an automaton that has seemingly sprung to life, a witch cult, multiple solutions—all visual possibilities on which a movie could capitalize. Both of the solutions are visual, for that matter, a rarity in mysteries. There’s a handful of JDC movies—I moderately liked the ocean-liner-set Dangerous Crossing (1953), even thought it butchers Carr’s plot, and I have no idea why I haven’t seen Julien Duvivier’s La chambre ardente (1962), based on Carr’s The Burning Court—but no more than a handful. I really have no idea why.
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Post by Penn Guinn on Jan 12, 2022 22:27:29 GMT
NalkarjNevada Barr was a National Parks Ranger and her books take place in parks around the nation. They are especially fun to read if you have been to that location yourself. She tends to have her heroine injured a tad too often so binge reading them is not recommended repetition-wise. The one at Guadeloupe and the caving one that takes place near Carlsbad at that Cave that starts Lech... that I cannot remember how to spell... were my first reads. They are not deep but they are adventurous and might make good films .... and they have a female lead goin' for 'em
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 12, 2022 22:33:37 GMT
Penn Guinn, oh goody, I love national parks! I had an idea once for a Yellowstone-set mystery where the killer loosens a wooden fence so that his victim leans back on and falls into one of the scalding-hot geysers. If we ever get back to some normalcy (God willing), I’d love to plan a trip to Yosemite. Also, I realized that in all my words above I never really answered your question. As I wrote, I don’t know why Carr hasn’t been adapted (or adapted more), but if I had to guess, maybe producers think his plots are too complex for the average moviegoer? That may seem kinda silly with how popular Jonathan Creek was, but it’s my best shot.
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Post by theravenking on Jan 12, 2022 22:34:25 GMT
Only tangentially related to the above, but I’d love to hear everyone’s thoughts on the David Suchet Agatha Christie’s Poirot show. I still like it, but I’ve recently been falling out of love with some of the early, best-liked episodes. They’re so relentlessly cheery and colorful that they often come off as a better-plotted Murder, She Wrote—light, easily forgettable fare with good actors trying to make the most of one-note characters. (How many times does Hastings—possibly even dumber than Christie’s character—need to say “Good lord” and “I say”?) I recently rewatched “The Million Dollar Bond Robbery,” which I remembered as one of the best episodes, and found it dull: lots of harrumphing stuffed shirts, a rather obvious mystery plot (writer Anthony Horowitz adds a character whose presence inadvertently gives away the solution), and loads of filler. Now, the Christie short story it’s based on is, what, 10 pages or so, so I understand the need for filler, but the filler feels like filler and makes the episode drag. Seasickness isn’t inherently funny, or even inherently a joke, yet that one non-joke gets repeated a half-dozen times. “The Theft of the Royal Ruby” and One, Two, Buckle My Shoe, which I hadn’t seen before, seemed much the same way. The show’s later seasons go too far in the other direction: gray and humorless. The last season is nearly entirely a misfire. I remember the Murder on the Orient Express adaptation (penultimate season) being particularly poor, though admittedly I haven’t seen it since 2010. The best episodes, I think, are those in the early 2000s, including fine adaptations of Five Little Pigs and Death on the Nile. These episodes are the first really to look and feel cinematic, but they also have better writing and more humor than the later episodes. All that said, my comments may be unfair to a few really good early episodes: Murder on the Links looks great and far improves on its source material, and the Season 2 Peril at End House is excellent, in large part because of Polly Walker’s sympathetic performance. And I remember loving “The Adventure of the Egyptian Tomb”—I’m a sucker for anything Egyptological—though, especially in light of “Bond Robbery,” I have to rewatch before making any judgment. I still love the show and find it immensely rewatchable. Some of that might be due to pure nostalgia, since I was still a schoolboy when I started watching the series in the 90s with my parents who were also huge mystery fans.
I agree that some of the early episodes are perhaps a bit clumsy, the first season particularly feels a bit too silly at times and also visually those episodes look like they might've been made in the 60s or 70s. They have a rather flat TV look to them.
I find that the series peaked around the middle. Some of my favourite episodes: Murder On The Links; Poirot's Christmas (while not faithful to the book, but I still like it); Lord Edgware Dies and Death On The Nile are all from this period.
From the later episodes I think I liked After The Funeral and Three Act Tragedy the best while Cards On The Table, Murder On The Orient Express and The Big Four were tragic misfires.
And while I would've preferred to get a whole season of episodes made from The Labours Of Hercules, I still liked what they came up with in the last season (even though I understand that some Christie fans might consider it a travesty.)
I could write a lot more about the show, it's perfect comfort viewing for me and a series I know I'll still be returning to in the future.
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Post by Penn Guinn on Jan 12, 2022 22:39:39 GMT
NalkarjThe Barr books have some stuff about her personal life that make more sense if read in sequence ... but it's not essential to do so. 'twas so interested reading more about Carr, that I forgot the question.
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Post by Penn Guinn on Jan 12, 2022 23:19:24 GMT
Are the Jesse Stone stores considered Whodunnits ? or are they more police procedurals?
Whatever they are .. the TV movie series AND the books are (imo) well worth reading / seeing.
Selleck is very Jesse !
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 13, 2022 3:14:46 GMT
I still love the show and find it immensely rewatchable. Some of that might be due to pure nostalgia, since I was still a schoolboy when I started watching the series in the 90s with my parents who were also huge mystery fans.
I agree that some of the early episodes are perhaps a bit clumsy, the first season particularly feels a bit too silly at times and also visually those episodes look like they might've been made in the 60s or 70s. They have a rather flat TV look to them.
I find that the series peaked around the middle. Some of my favourite episodes: Murder On The Links; Poirot's Christmas (while not faithful to the book, but I still like it); Lord Edgware Dies and Death On The Nile are all from this period. From the later episodes I think I liked After The Funeral and Three Act Tragedy the best while Cards On The Table, Murder On The Orient Express and The Big Four were tragic misfires. And while I would've preferred to get a whole season of episodes made from The Labours Of Hercules, I still liked what they came up with in the last season (even though I understand that some Christie fans might consider it a travesty.) I could write a lot more about the show, it's perfect comfort viewing for me and a series I know I'll still be returning to in the future. I think we’re agreed on many of the same episodes, RK! Many thanks for the reply. And, yes, I agree the series peaked around the middle: Even some of those shorter middle eps are better than some of the earlier ones. (I have such good memories of “Wasps’ Nest” and “Egyptian Tomb” that I hope a rewatch doesn’t spoil them.) My favorites are probably Peril at End House, Murder on the Links (kind of astounding how much better than the book it is), Five Little Pigs, Death on the Nile, and After the Funeral. I also have good memories of Murder in Mesopotamia (the book is a favorite Christie of mine, albeit partly for sentimental reasons—it was the first Christie novel I read) and The Mystery of the Blue Train, though rewatches are definitely in order. Poirot’s Christmas is, alas, not one of my favorite eps… I think it would be improved tenfold by replacing Insp. Japp by Supt. Sugden, who seems kind of superfluous for much of it. I do like the Lord Edgware adaptation, though as with the book I find the central deception so obvious. Haven’t seen the Three-Act Tragedy adaptation—I have to get on that, especially with your recommendation! Cards on the Table, gah, is especially annoying because it starts off so well…
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 13, 2022 3:34:12 GMT
Are the Jesse Stone stores considered Whodunnits ? or are they more police procedurals?Whatever they are .. the TV movie series AND the books are (imo) well worth reading / seeing. Selleck is very Jesse ! I haven’t seen the movies or read the books, but I’d say in general the line between the whodunit and the procedural is tough to draw… Mystery author Freeman Wills Crofts, for example, had a policeman as a hero and wrote about painstaking police techniques, but he also filled his books with hard-to-break alibis and could throw in surprise solutions. (Crofts is in some ways the ancestor of Columbo, especially on the clever alibi front. Many of the early-season episodes are particularly Croftsian, I think, as is ye olde mysterious “missing Columbo.”)
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