PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 15:17:19 GMT
The laws of physics are just descriptions of common events that seem to always take place, why are they said to "govern" te universe? I understand "laws" and "govern" are metaphors but why are they used? I dont see how descriptions if how descriptions of events that always happen (as far as we know) are considered similar to laws and governing.
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 15:50:58 GMT
The laws of physics are just descriptions of common events that seem to always take place, why are they said to "govern" te universe? I understand "laws" and "govern" are metaphors but why are they used? I dont see how descriptions if how descriptions of events that always happen (as far as we know) are considered similar to laws and governing. I'm speculating here, but it may have something to do with Kepler developing his laws of planetary motion. These "restrict" or "guide" or "dictate" the path that planets take while orbiting the sun. All those words in quotes in the last sentence are reasonably synonymous with "govern". Can you propose an alternative nomenclature?
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 15:57:30 GMT
The laws of physics are just descriptions of common events that seem to always take place, why are they said to "govern" te universe? I understand "laws" and "govern" are metaphors but why are they used? I dont see how descriptions if how descriptions of events that always happen (as far as we know) are considered similar to laws and governing. I'm speculating here, but it may have something to do with Kepler developing his laws of planetary motion. These "restrict" or "guide" or "dictate" the path that planets take while orbiting the sun. All those words in quotes in the last sentence are reasonably synonymous with "govern". Can you propose an alternative nomenclature? Well again they are just descriptions of events that take place. I would not say they restrict or guide anything.
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 16:21:37 GMT
I'm speculating here, but it may have something to do with Kepler developing his laws of planetary motion. These "restrict" or "guide" or "dictate" the path that planets take while orbiting the sun. All those words in quotes in the last sentence are reasonably synonymous with "govern". Can you propose an alternative nomenclature? Well again they are just descriptions of events that take place. I would not say they restrict or guide anything. I'm providing an explanation from a historical perspective. Long before Kepler, and before ancient astronomers made somewhat accurate measurements, observers noticed that the planets moved around relative to the fixed stars. The Greeks called them wanderers (that is in fact the origin of the word "Planet"), and probably in these early observers' imagining the planets were free to go any which way. Later discoveries, culminating with Kepler, reduced the "degrees of freedom" of planetary motion to a single predictable, deterministic path. This reduction is what made possible being able to predict future astronomical events. The math for being able to do that came long before Kepler, as several ancient cultures (Greek, Chinese, Mayan) have had the ability to predict eclipses.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 16:36:09 GMT
Well again they are just descriptions of events that take place. I would not say they restrict or guide anything. I'm providing an explanation from a historical perspective. Long before Kepler, and before ancient astronomers made somewhat accurate measurements, observers noticed that the planets moved around relative to the fixed stars. The Greeks called them wanderers (that is in fact the origin of the word "Planet"), and probably in these early observers' imagining the planets were free to go any which way. Later discoveries, culminating with Kepler, reduced the "degrees of freedom" of planetary motion to a single predictable, deterministic path. This reduction is what made possible being able to predict future astronomical events. The math for being able to do that came long before Kepler, as several ancient cultures (Greek, Chinese, Mayan) have had the ability to predict eclipses. Okay but how does being able to predict something make it determined. You wouldn't say things like the dunning-Kruger effect or Stockholm syndrome dictate human behaviour would you?
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 16:45:37 GMT
I'm providing an explanation from a historical perspective. Long before Kepler, and before ancient astronomers made somewhat accurate measurements, observers noticed that the planets moved around relative to the fixed stars. The Greeks called them wanderers (that is in fact the origin of the word "Planet"), and probably in these early observers' imagining the planets were free to go any which way. Later discoveries, culminating with Kepler, reduced the "degrees of freedom" of planetary motion to a single predictable, deterministic path. This reduction is what made possible being able to predict future astronomical events. The math for being able to do that came long before Kepler, as several ancient cultures (Greek, Chinese, Mayan) have had the ability to predict eclipses. Okay but how does being able to predict something make it determined. You wouldn't say things like the dunning-Kruger effect or Stockholm syndrome dictate human behaviour would you? As in determining a solution, or determining a location. Note the second definition below. de·ter·mine dəˈtərmən/ verb 1. cause (something) to occur in a particular way; be the decisive factor in. "it will be her mental attitude that determines her future" synonyms: control, decide, regulate, direct, dictate, govern; More 2. ascertain or establish exactly, typically as a result of research or calculation. "officials are working with state police to determine the cause of a deadly bus crash" synonyms: ascertain, find out, discover, learn, establish, calculate, work out, make out, deduce, diagnose, discern; More
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 16:48:38 GMT
Okay but how does being able to predict something make it determined. You wouldn't say things like the dunning-Kruger effect or Stockholm syndrome dictate human behaviour would you? As in determining a solution, or determining a location. Note the second definition below. de·ter·mine dəˈtərmən/ verb 1. cause (something) to occur in a particular way; be the decisive factor in. "it will be her mental attitude that determines her future" synonyms: control, decide, regulate, direct, dictate, govern; More 2. ascertain or establish exactly, typically as a result of research or calculation. "officials are working with state police to determine the cause of a deadly bus crash" synonyms: ascertain, find out, discover, learn, establish, calculate, work out, make out, deduce, diagnose, discern; More Well I never denied that astronomers can determine planetary motions of a planet via Keplers laws.
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 17:02:45 GMT
As in determining a solution, or determining a location. Note the second definition below. de·ter·mine dəˈtərmən/ verb 1. cause (something) to occur in a particular way; be the decisive factor in. "it will be her mental attitude that determines her future" synonyms: control, decide, regulate, direct, dictate, govern; More 2. ascertain or establish exactly, typically as a result of research or calculation. "officials are working with state police to determine the cause of a deadly bus crash" synonyms: ascertain, find out, discover, learn, establish, calculate, work out, make out, deduce, diagnose, discern; More Well I never denied that astronomers can determine planetary motions of a planet via Keplers laws. No, you asked a semantic question which I attempted to answer semantically.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 17:21:09 GMT
Well I never denied that astronomers can determine planetary motions of a planet via Keplers laws. No, you asked a semantic question which I attempted to answer semantically. I didnt ask why you use the word determine with regards to calculating planetary motion.
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 17:52:36 GMT
No, you asked a semantic question which I attempted to answer semantically. I didnt ask why you use the word determine with regards to calculating planetary motion. I was referring to your OP. We seem to be going in circles. Why not propose alternate terminology to the "govern" metaphor that would be more to your liking?
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 17:56:45 GMT
I didnt ask why you use the word determine with regards to calculating planetary motion. I was referring to your OP. We seem to be going in circles. Why not propose alternate terminology to the "govern" metaphor that would be more to your liking? How wa that referring to my OP? How about we just call them events that seem to always happen based on observation? That would be much more simple and clear
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 18:02:26 GMT
I was referring to your OP. We seem to be going in circles. Why not propose alternate terminology to the "govern" metaphor that would be more to your liking? How wa that referring to my OP? How about we just call them events that seem to always happen based on observation? That would be much more simple and clear I'd say it needs to be about the same level of conciseness as "laws of physics". "Events that seem to always happen based on observation" is too long. Got anything shorter?
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 18:15:05 GMT
How wa that referring to my OP? How about we just call them events that seem to always happen based on observation? That would be much more simple and clear I'd say it needs to be about the same level of conciseness as "laws of physics". "Events that seem to always happen based on observation" is too long. Got anything shorter? Why not just call them recurring types of events or RTEs for short. Or maybe something along those lines
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 21, 2017 18:22:56 GMT
Many believe that they are quite literally laws, were it's impossible to break them. Thus, all events are determined by those laws.
The idea that they're just something like statistical descriptions is controversial.
Both sides of that are difficult to justify, by the way, because the intuition is that we want to ask why it would be either way--and really, we haven't the faintest idea why. We could probably never get to an answer there, because any answer is going to just posit more laws/descriptions where we're going to have to wonder why those are the case.
And for the "they're just descriptions" angle, there's the added difficulty of accounting for why events are not far more random than they are, as we might expect if they're just descriptions and not laws.
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 18:31:22 GMT
Many believe that they are quite literally laws, were it's impossible to break them. Thus, all events are determined by those laws. The idea that they're just something like statistical descriptions is controversial. Both sides of that are difficult to justify, by the way, because the intuition is that we want to ask why it would be either way--and really, we haven't the faintest idea why. We could probably never get to an answer there, because any answer is going to just posit more laws/descriptions where we're going to have to wonder why those are the case. And for the "they're just descriptions" angle, there's the added difficulty of accounting for why events are not far more random than they are, as we might expect if they're just descriptions and not laws. True. Never thought about it that way.
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 18:58:43 GMT
Many believe that they are quite literally laws, were it's impossible to break them. Thus, all events are determined by those laws. The idea that they're just something like statistical descriptions is controversial. Both sides of that are difficult to justify, by the way, because the intuition is that we want to ask why it would be either way--and really, we haven't the faintest idea why. We could probably never get to an answer there, because any answer is going to just posit more laws/descriptions where we're going to have to wonder why those are the case. And for the "they're just descriptions" angle, there's the added difficulty of accounting for why events are not far more random than they are, as we might expect if they're just descriptions and not laws. True. Never thought about it that way. And aside from the metaphysics, there's also the recurrent practice of discussing "violations" of these "laws". A scenario can often be dismissed as impossible because it violates some law. For instance travelling to Alpha Centauri in one week is impossible because that would violate Einstein's Theory of Relativity which states that nothing can travel faster than light. Or a perpetual motion machine is impossible because it violates the law of conservation of energy.
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 19:09:44 GMT
True. Never thought about it that way. And aside from the metaphysics, there's also the recurrent practice of discussing "violations" of these "laws". A scenario can often be dismissed as impossible because it violates some law. For instance travelling to Alpha Centauri in one week is impossible because that would violate Einstein's Theory of Relativity which states that nothing can travel faster than light. Or a perpetual motion machine is impossible because it violates the law of conservation of energy. II am not sure what your point is.
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Post by general313 on Apr 21, 2017 19:20:28 GMT
And aside from the metaphysics, there's also the recurrent practice of discussing "violations" of these "laws". A scenario can often be dismissed as impossible because it violates some law. For instance travelling to Alpha Centauri in one week is impossible because that would violate Einstein's Theory of Relativity which states that nothing can travel faster than light. Or a perpetual motion machine is impossible because it violates the law of conservation of energy. II am not sure what your point is. Just that using "violation" makes more sense in relation to a "law" than if we were to use some other metaphor. And violation is talked about a lot in science.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 19:20:34 GMT
The laws of physics are just descriptions of common events that seem to always take place, why are they said to "govern" te universe? I understand "laws" and "govern" are metaphors but why are they used? I dont see how descriptions if how descriptions of events that always happen (as far as we know) are considered similar to laws and governing. Because scientists are people, and people are sloppy with their language quite a lot.
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 21, 2017 19:44:50 GMT
II am not sure what your point is. Just that using "violation" makes more sense in relation to a "law" than if we were to use some other metaphor. And violation is talked about a lot in science. We shouldn't use both. We can't know whether theyre literally are laws or not.
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