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Post by fjenkins on Jan 23, 2020 19:44:27 GMT
www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fame-candidates-that-deserve-a-closer-look-in-2021I can't believe how much I have been reading about "people should look at Abreu closer." I did, he's not remotely a HOFer and should have not had enough votes to remain on the ballot. Hall of good at best. It's depressing how people really want to water down the Hall (not that that isn't already done). Scott Rolen too. Solid thirdbaseman. Not a HOFer. Not a boarderline candidate. Jeff Kent? Yup. Billy Wagner - I used to say no but after others have got in, he definitely belongs. Todd Helton - another Hall of good.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 23, 2020 19:48:48 GMT
Apology accepted!
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Jan 23, 2020 20:10:44 GMT
yeah - it kind of irks me that Rolen is in the discussion
to me he was an above average 3rd baseman and have a strong dislike for him as he was a sour puss here and once he was off to St. Louis made a disparaging comment regarding his past in Philly along the lines of he was in baseball heaven now - was a nice gesture to St. Louis but many fans took it here as a knock on Philly too - he was just miserable here all around and never endeared himself to the fans.
kind of a douche.
never cracked a smile and wanted to get out of town ASAP
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Post by fjenkins on Jan 23, 2020 20:11:49 GMT
yeah - it kind of irks me that Rolen is in the discussion to me he was an above average 3rd baseman and have a strong dislike for him as he was a sour puss here and once he was off to St. Louis made a disparaging comment regarding his past in Philly along the lines of he was in baseball heaven now - was a nice gesture to St. Louis but many fans took it here as a knock on Philly too - he was just miserable here all around and never endeared himself to the fans. kind of a douce. I mean statistically he's not even close to a HOFer. He was a solid for a few years but for people to whine that he doesn't get the HOF respect that he deserves is absurd.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Jan 23, 2020 20:14:14 GMT
abreu, rolen and wagner - 3 schlubs who we in Philly could really care less about - although Bobby's Wall of Fame speech here was nice - to be honest - I'm not quite even sure he deserves Wall of Fame honor  we have a strong dislike for Billy Wags - he complained about fans booing him here when he didn't pitch 100mph - dope didn't realize we were just having fun with it all - when the clock hit 99 or 98 - and it was never a personal attack on himself - thin skinned primadonna |
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Post by fjenkins on Jan 23, 2020 20:16:35 GMT
abreu, rolen and wagner - 3 schlubs who we in Philly could really care less about - although Bobby's Wall of Fame speech here was nice - to be honest - I'm not quite even sure he deserves Wall of Fame honor we have a strong dislike for Billy Wags - he complained about fans booing him here when he didn't pitch 100mph - dope didn't realize we were just having fun with it all - when the clock hit 99 or 98 - and it was never a personal attack on himself - thin skinned primadonna For years I was on the "no way for Wagner" train but now I say yeah, he deserves it. I think once Sutter got in, opened the door for a few others.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 23, 2020 20:19:47 GMT
abreu, rolen and wagner - 3 schlubs who we in Philly could really care less about - although Bobby's Wall of Fame speech here was nice - to be honest - I'm not quite even sure he deserves Wall of Fame honor we have a strong dislike for Billy Wags - he complained about fans booing him here when he didn't pitch 100mph - dope didn't realize we were just having fun with it all - when the clock hit 99 or 98 - and it was never a personal attack on himself - thin skinned primadonna Wagner deserves to be in. He had a remarkable career. Got to see him in person a bunch while on Philly and then of course during his tenure for the Mets. When he was on, he was just lights out, nobody could touch him. Dominance like you read about.
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Post by tristramshandy on Jan 23, 2020 20:24:13 GMT
I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer, but here are a partial list of players who have worse WAR than Abreu:
Ichiro, Yogi Berra, Willie Stargell, Vladimir Guerrero, Hank Greenberg, Mike Piazza, Bill Dickey, Whitey Ford, Kirby Puckett, Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner.
As for Jeff Kent - - Ian Kinsler is above Jeff Kent and played three fewer years than Kent did (Abreu beats him too). I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Jeff Kent should be in the Hall of Fame.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 23, 2020 20:39:02 GMT
Is WAR the be all end all statistic? Sometimes the eye test is enough. Yes to Wagner and Kent, no to Rolen and Abreu.
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Post by millar70 on Jan 23, 2020 21:16:03 GMT
I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer, but here are a partial list of players who have worse WAR than Abreu: Ichiro, Yogi Berra, Willie Stargell, Vladimir Guerrero, Hank Greenberg, Mike Piazza, Bill Dickey, Whitey Ford, Kirby Puckett, Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner. As for Jeff Kent - - Ian Kinsler is above Jeff Kent and played three fewer years than Kent did (Abreu beats him too). I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Jeff Kent should be in the Hall of Fame. A pretty good argument for how meaningless the WAR stat actually is. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 23, 2020 21:21:22 GMT
I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer, but here are a partial list of players who have worse WAR than Abreu: Ichiro, Yogi Berra, Willie Stargell, Vladimir Guerrero, Hank Greenberg, Mike Piazza, Bill Dickey, Whitey Ford, Kirby Puckett, Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner. As for Jeff Kent - - Ian Kinsler is above Jeff Kent and played three fewer years than Kent did (Abreu beats him too). I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Jeff Kent should be in the Hall of Fame.Well, there is the argument that Jeff Kent was the best hitting 2b of all time (best not named Hornsby in my book). He leads all 2b in nearly every offensive category. Mike Piazza got in because "he was the best hitting catcher of all time." Was his stats helped by hitting ahead of Barry Bonds, definitely. Do we hold that against him/ If you are in the "The Hall is shit because of Harold Baines" then no. If you are in the "The bar has been lowered and I'll adjust", then Kent should be in.
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Post by fjenkins on Jan 23, 2020 21:39:11 GMT
I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer, but here are a partial list of players who have worse WAR than Abreu: Ichiro, Yogi Berra, Willie Stargell, Vladimir Guerrero, Hank Greenberg, Mike Piazza, Bill Dickey, Whitey Ford, Kirby Puckett, Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner. As for Jeff Kent - - Ian Kinsler is above Jeff Kent and played three fewer years than Kent did (Abreu beats him too). I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Jeff Kent should be in the Hall of Fame. If WAR then means that Abreu is better than Ichiro, Berra, Stargell and Guerrero, then it's time to do away with WAR. WAR. Huh. What is it good for?
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Post by NJtoTX on Jan 23, 2020 21:47:02 GMT
Abreu had 1 gold glove, was a 2-time all-star, never finished higher than 12th in MVP voting.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 23, 2020 21:56:49 GMT
I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer, but here are a partial list of players who have worse WAR than Abreu: Ichiro, Yogi Berra, Willie Stargell, Vladimir Guerrero, Hank Greenberg, Mike Piazza, Bill Dickey, Whitey Ford, Kirby Puckett, Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner. As for Jeff Kent - - Ian Kinsler is above Jeff Kent and played three fewer years than Kent did (Abreu beats him too). I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Jeff Kent should be in the Hall of Fame. If WAR then means that Abreu is better than Ichiro, Berra, Stargell and Guerrero, then it's time to do away with WAR. WAR. Huh. What is it good for? To my understanding, WAR was designed to compare players from different eras. Hitting .300 in a huge offensive year like 1930 wasn't the same as hitting .300 in a huge pitching year like 1968. The WAR is based in the comparison of the mythological replacement for that year. The replacement would have bigger numbers in 1930 than 1968. But it wasn't really meant to be the end all of arguments for careers.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 23, 2020 22:00:12 GMT
Abreu had 1 gold glove, was a 2-time all-star, never finished higher than 12th in MVP voting. The fact that he only made 2 ASGs to me is rather mind-boggling. HOF is one thing, but if you look at his year-over-year numbers, he was always putting up a good average, got on base with the best of them, was a doubles machines, drove in runs, was good for 20 HRs per year. Say what you want about the HOF, that's fine, but to not be worthy of ASG nods at all other than 2 years seems hinky to me.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Jan 24, 2020 3:00:31 GMT
Helton's easily got the best case of any the OP mentioned. If you averaged .316 you're better than good in my book. Whether he's far enough better than good to be in the HOF is up for debate, but he was bloody good, not just good.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 24, 2020 3:10:14 GMT
Helton's easily got the best case of any the OP mentioned. If you averaged .316 you're better than good in my book. Whether he's far enough better than good to be in the HOF is up for debate, but he was bloody good, not just good. .345 at Coors, .287 on the road. Just saying. |
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Post by ReyKahuka on Jan 24, 2020 13:01:35 GMT
But is he manually a Hall of Famer?
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Post by SportsFan19 on Jan 24, 2020 23:37:58 GMT
Abreu had 1 gold glove, was a 2-time all-star, never finished higher than 12th in MVP voting. The fact that he only made 2 ASGs to me is rather mind-boggling. HOF is one thing, but if you look at his year-over-year numbers, he was always putting up a good average, got on base with the best of them, was a doubles machines, drove in runs, was good for 20 HRs per year. Say what you want about the HOF, that's fine, but to not be worthy of ASG nods at all other than 2 years seems hinky to me. The fact he only had 1 glove glove surprises me too, but maybe I just overrated his defence?
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