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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 28, 2020 2:19:12 GMT
Okay, watching the top review, I want to comment - I get that some of their remarks are just meant for the snarky entertainment value; I can appreciate that, there are times where I can be intentionally obtuse for the sake of a joke. But like, if the one guy honestly couldn't understand the person saying "daughter" then yeah, he should probably get his hearing checked. Dahj is an odd sounding name, but it's not that difficult to remember. I'll admit, I thought it was "Dosh," but that's a minor distinction. More so, they gloss over the fact that they explain in the episode why she looks like the girl in the painting; which is that Bruce intentionally modeled her after the painting. I also thought it was pretty clear that the people who beamed into Dahj's apartment were initially using their device to see if she had been "activated" from the sense of knowing that she was an android; and confirmed that she had not been. Not sure what they thought they were accomplishing with the bag. Obviously that wouldn't be used to knock her out, despite the dialog; that's more a convention for disorientation, so a person can't tell where they're going. But if they were presumably going to beam her out, it's not like she'd be able to tell where she was without the bag. The guys in the review video keep saying they should have stunned her or knocked her out, but since they knew she was a synthetic, could she even be stunned or tranquilized using any conventional methods? Working under the assumption that if she hadn't yet been "activated" she'd respond as any other ordinary human would, keeping her disoriented would arguably be the next best thing. It's perhaps a little more convenient that she could fight as well as she did, without being able to see and without being fully activated. The Romulans have often arguably been an allegory to the US' relationship with Russia; though they might be said of the Klingons and Cardassians, but there's always been a Cold War element in their relationship. That changed to some degree during the Dominion War, thanks to Sisko's shady dealings, but who's to say what the post war relationship would be? No doubt some might hold out hope for relations to continue in a more positive direction following the war, but factions in either camp, the Federation or the Romulan Empire, might be inclined to tap the brakes or even go back to how things were. I mean, look no further than the US and Russia fighting on the same side during World War II; it was an alliance of convenience, but that didn't last once their mutual enemy was subdued and if anything relations worsened, leading to the Cold War. Maybe the Romulans got a little comfortable with some of the worlds they annexed during the war and didn't want to give them back to whomever had control of them before the war. I did think it was dumb that they claimed Romulus had less than a billion people on the planet. I mean, sure, that makes the evacuation even more difficult, but seriously, a planet with an advanced population with only a few hundred million on the whole planet? I have my own personal theory to explain what happened to the Romulan sun, which goes a bit into the weeds as fan theories goes. From my understand there might have also been an explanation/elaborate backstory that may have been part of Star Trek online, but I also got the impression from what I read online that this episode of Picard may have contradicted some of that. I think the guy on the left became too silly and wanting to make silly jokes and laughing like a hyena. I had no problem with the girl's name. I agree with you. The guy on the left must have a hearing problem. I agree with reviewers. The Romulan Empire was advanced and vast enough to handle one exploding star. And stars don't just blow up over night. That process takes thousands or millions of years. I think it is an admittance of lack of imagination that these Star Trek movies and TV shows don't continue with the theme of advancement of science, exploration and discovery. But it's always some problem with character of known species --- vengeance, greed, misunderstanding, etc. People who like science and science fiction like discovery. They are not the typical soap opera fan who gets off on personality conflict. And good versus evil. Or even worse --- evil versus evil. And that is the theme of most movies and TV shows today. As evidenced by MTV's "The Real World" and Bravo's "The Real Housewives of wherever". (And shamefully --- the Democrats versus the Republicans.) There has been some degree of Star Trek writers (and other science fiction writers) cheating with some of that type of phenomena - I mean, look how easily and quickly the stars exploded in Generations. That of course isn't exactly an example Star Trek's best writing, but you have them cutting corners with the Genesis device causing a nebula to collapse and form a star system; and the plot device of "protomatter" accelerating the development of life and all of that shit. My real point is, is that if left as a "natural" phenomenon, then yes, it's implausible that Romulus' star could unexpectedly reach the end of its life like that, but they haven't precluded explaining it as the result of something prematurely triggering its death artificially; a fact that may or may not even been well known if it was down deliberately and surreptitiously. They might reveal that there was a plot to take out the Romulan Star Empire, by sabotaging their sun; while undermining the evacuation effort through an attack that made synthetic life forms the fall guy. My personal preference would be if it turns out that it was the outcome of the Romulans' own hubris; something perhaps analogous to climate change, where the Romulans' own actions to exploit the natural resources of their home solar system and perhaps the star itself, lead to its premature collapse. And that they actually had indications of this risk for decades and chose to ignore it, because the people in power felt that whatever they got out of whatever it was they were doing outweighed the hypothetical dangers; and they simply chose to stick their head in the sand and ignore the evidence, rather than change what they were doing. In that scenario, it would make sense that the Romulan senate might try to suppress as much of this information as possible, but that eventually some of the details would reach Spock; and Spock being Spock would see that the science has merit and become a champion for this serious cause. I think they definitely did themselves a disservice under-valuing the size of the population of Romulus as much as they did. But either way, even with the resources they had - and for arguments sake, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that the Romulan fleet was severely diminished on account of the Dominion war and however many years later when this happened, it still wasn't what it used to be. Maybe there was a new dynamic between the Federation and the Romulans where it wasn't felt that they needed to build up as large of fleet as they used to have. But even if they did, if by best estimate one ship could carry 1,000 people - which would include the crew, and is based on numbers thrown around for the Federation's Galaxy class starships - you would need 1,000 just to carrying 1,000,000 people. They said there were 900 million Romulans on Romulus that needed to be evacuated, which if the aforementioned capacity would be 900,000 ships. Now, maybe the capacity could be fudged, but now that I really think about the scope of the numbers, I think it would be virtually impossible to suggest an average ship capacity that would require fewer than tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of ships; even if each ship made numerous trips. And that's just the physical capacity, to say nothing of the cluster fuck of logistically coordinating an evacuation on that scale; getting people who have to leave their homes, likely leave behind all or most of their possessions; and find a new place to take them; and you can't just stop and beam them down to a barren planet, there has to be supplies, there has to be shelter and you have to ensure that families that shouldn't be separated stay together. All of which using the conservative figure of 900 million people, instead of the more like billions upon billions that should have been on Romulus. Then you're easily talking a need of millions of ships, each taking countless trips. All of this occurred to me as I typed this, when I considered that I ripped on the Arrowverse shows during their recent "Crisis on Infinite Earths" crossover for casually attempting an evacuation of one of the Earths and managing to evacuate a fairly larger percentage of Earth's 7.5 billion - nearly a thousand times larger population than what they claimed Romulus had. And that was one of a thousand issues I had with Crisis, because they made it seem like no big deal to move that many people from one place to another, with no thought about the volume or other details that would go into it.
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Post by ck100 on Jan 28, 2020 3:01:40 GMT
Didn't Data have a daughter in the TNG Season 3 episode "The Offspring"? I feel like this matter is being forgotten for this show.
Anyway, finally got to see the first episode. I liked it. It's hard to judge a show though on only one episode. But we'll see how things go.
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paislene
Junior Member
@paislene
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Post by paislene on Jan 28, 2020 4:27:24 GMT
Has anyone researched or know more about the Romulan disaster ? Did the star implode into a black hole or go nova ? Was it the result of an attack by their enemies ?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 28, 2020 4:57:46 GMT
Has anyone researched or know more about the Romulan disaster ? Did the star implode into a black hole or go nova ? Was it the result of an attack by their enemies ? According to the first episode of Picard, the Romulan sun went supernova. The other day I saw someone ask a question on Quora about the episode contradicting the "Hobus Crisis" When I looked it up, I found this: memorydelta.fandom.com/wiki/Hobus_crisisI'm familiar with Memory Alpha as the main continuity wiki page; and Memory Beta for stuff related to things like books that aren't strictly considered cannon, but I'd never heard of "Memory Delta" before; so I'm not entirely sure what that relates to. According to the homepage it's "a community of fan authors." But in trying to look this up, I got the impression from what I saw, that it might have been a story tying into the online game Star Trek Online. And from the above link, it talks about a possible conspiracy or at least an intentional plot to cause the Romulan sun to go nova, but again, I have no idea where that comes from. Obvious if it's just some sort of fan fiction, that doesn't count as cannon, but even if it's from Star Trek Online, which a lot of people were considering as the closest thing to continuing the narrative for Star Trek for a long time; I think since the books don't usually get counted as cannon and even the animated series has held a debated position in continuity, it's safe to say that the live action writers may not consider themselves beholden to a video game. So the short answer is, there may be reason to believe it wasn't a natural event, but whether or not they hold to something already established in another medium or offer some new reason to suggest that the star was destroyed deliberately remains to be seen.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 28, 2020 5:28:18 GMT
Has anyone researched or know more about the Romulan disaster ? Did the star implode into a black hole or go nova ? Was it the result of an attack by their enemies ? Either way, it wasn't explained in the first episode of "Picard".
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Post by movieliker on Jan 28, 2020 5:29:16 GMT
Didn't Data have a daughter in the TNG Season 3 episode "The Offspring"? I feel like this matter is being forgotten for this show.
Anyway, finally got to see the first episode. I liked it. It's hard to judge a show though on only one episode. But we'll see how things go.
Yes. Data built a daughter in TNG. But Picard made him destroy it.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 28, 2020 6:03:19 GMT
Didn't Data have a daughter in the TNG Season 3 episode "The Offspring"? I feel like this matter is being forgotten for this show.
Anyway, finally got to see the first episode. I liked it. It's hard to judge a show though on only one episode. But we'll see how things go.
Yes. Data built a daughter in TNG. But Picard made him destroy it. That last part did not happen. Picard initially had some reservations about Data attempting something so extraordinary, but he quickly became very supportive and even defended Data and his daughter Lal when an admiral from starfleet wanted to take her away; claiming she needed a better environment to learn in. She ultimately suffered from a cascade failure of her systems that Data was unable to repair and she essentially died.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 28, 2020 12:52:39 GMT
Yes. Data built a daughter in TNG. But Picard made him destroy it. That last part did not happen. Picard initially had some reservations about Data attempting something so extraordinary, but he quickly became very supportive and even defended Data and his daughter Lal when an admiral from starfleet wanted to take her away; claiming she needed a better environment to learn in. She ultimately suffered from a cascade failure of her systems that Data was unable to repair and she essentially died. I wasn't sure. I think they said that in the posted video (with the two guys reviewing Picard). If you say so.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 28, 2020 14:44:20 GMT
That last part did not happen. Picard initially had some reservations about Data attempting something so extraordinary, but he quickly became very supportive and even defended Data and his daughter Lal when an admiral from starfleet wanted to take her away; claiming she needed a better environment to learn in. She ultimately suffered from a cascade failure of her systems that Data was unable to repair and she essentially died. I wasn't sure. I think they said that in the posted video (with the two guys reviewing Picard). If you say so. Yeah, that was either another attempt at hyperbolic humor or a blind spot in their own knowledge after ripping on the writers for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of Star Trek. I'm guessing the former, since they showed clips from the episode "The Offspring", but then again they also tried poking holes in the clip from Picard, where Picard says he never lost faith in Data, by showing clips of Data taking questionable actions; and most of those were taken wildly out of context. The clip of of "Data" firing a gun at Worf wasn't actually Data, but a hologram that happened to look like Data. The clip of Picard questioning Data's trustworthiness was the result of Picard ordering Data not to divulge what had been to them to anyone, including himself; which was an encounter that was later wiped from Picard's memory. The clip of Worf being attacked in the turbolift was Lore, not Data. And so on. But yes, Picard never ordered Data to deactivate or dismantle Lal; and became supportive of his endeavor once the initial shock was over. They may not have outright mentioned Lal, the closest might be Picard saying, "He always wanted a daughter," but not mentioning Lal by name is hardly a contradiction; just an omission. And being only the first episode they may still acknowledge her later.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 28, 2020 16:15:42 GMT
I wasn't sure. I think they said that in the posted video (with the two guys reviewing Picard). If you say so. Yeah, that was either another attempt at hyperbolic humor or a blind spot in their own knowledge after ripping on the writers for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of Star Trek. I'm guessing the former, since they showed clips from the episode "The Offspring", but then again they also tried poking holes in the clip from Picard, where Picard says he never lost faith in Data, by showing clips of Data taking questionable actions; and most of those were taken wildly out of context. The clip of of "Data" firing a gun at Worf wasn't actually Data, but a hologram that happened to look like Data. The clip of Picard questioning Data's trustworthiness was the result of Picard ordering Data not to divulge what had been to them to anyone, including himself; which was an encounter that was later wiped from Picard's memory. The clip of Worf being attacked in the turbolift was Lore, not Data. And so on. But yes, Picard never ordered Data to deactivate or dismantle Lal; and became supportive of his endeavor once the initial shock was over. They may not have outright mentioned Lal, the closest might be Picard saying, "He always wanted a daughter," but not mentioning Lal by name is hardly a contradiction; just an omission. And being only the first episode they may still acknowledge her later. I agree with everything you said. But --- the review with the two guys had a general attitude of, "We're not really sure, but I think . . ." So --- I'm willing to give them a pass. But my biggest critisms of their review is; 1) the guy on the right who claimed he couldn't hear the girl's name. And 2) the the guy on the left being silly and laughing too much. Other than that, I agree with most, the franchise seems to have abandoned the explore and discover theme. For, internal conflict caused by moral and/or ethical failings of already known species of humanoids.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jan 28, 2020 16:40:46 GMT
Yeah, that was either another attempt at hyperbolic humor or a blind spot in their own knowledge after ripping on the writers for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of Star Trek. I'm guessing the former, since they showed clips from the episode "The Offspring", but then again they also tried poking holes in the clip from Picard, where Picard says he never lost faith in Data, by showing clips of Data taking questionable actions; and most of those were taken wildly out of context. The clip of of "Data" firing a gun at Worf wasn't actually Data, but a hologram that happened to look like Data. The clip of Picard questioning Data's trustworthiness was the result of Picard ordering Data not to divulge what had been to them to anyone, including himself; which was an encounter that was later wiped from Picard's memory. The clip of Worf being attacked in the turbolift was Lore, not Data. And so on. But yes, Picard never ordered Data to deactivate or dismantle Lal; and became supportive of his endeavor once the initial shock was over. They may not have outright mentioned Lal, the closest might be Picard saying, "He always wanted a daughter," but not mentioning Lal by name is hardly a contradiction; just an omission. And being only the first episode they may still acknowledge her later. I agree with everything you said. But --- the review with the two guys had a general attitude of, "We're not really sure, but I think . . ." So --- I'm willing to give them a pass. But my biggest critisms of their review is; 1) the guy on the right who claimed he couldn't hear the girl's name. And 2) the the guy on the left being silly and laughing too much. Other than that, I agree with most, the franchise seems to have abandoned the explore and discover theme. For, internal conflict caused by moral and/or ethical failings of already known species of humanoids. Oh, absolutely. I've said elsewhere, my biggest apprehension going into this series was that, like Discovery, this was going to be another show that would make everything dark and dreary and masquerade it as drama; and I'm tired of that shit. The first episode of Picard hasn't entirely disabused me of that perception either, though I will say there were aspects of it that I found more palatable than Discovery's brand of nihilism. This is just speculation based on the crumbs they've given us in travelers, but I suspect that the story will see Picard's mission this season actually be sanctioned by Starfleet; which would be a nice thing to see if it does play out. Instead of Picard and crew being the underdog sidestepping the authorities, there'd be a glimmer of hope that everything hadn't been lost if there are still good people in Starfleet willing to give the protagonists the benefit of the doubt. I'm less concerned about the exact "seek out new worlds" exploration aspect, since adhering to a rigid format like that can get stale and formulaic; as evidenced with some of the weaker episodes of TNG. At it's core, Star Trek is about the people, whether they're the main characters or the "people" they encounter; it's the interaction and exploration of similarities and differences, at time through some form of conflict and resolution. Many of the better episodes that did this often had less to do with "Captains log, we've begun our standard survey or planet Epsilon IV of the Vega Cluster" and more often in the vein of "Captain's log, we've just detected signs of some strange shit going on a light year away; so we're going to check it out while we're in the area." You know, those times where instead of looking for trouble, trouble finds them. And this whole thing with Dahj and her sister or double or whatever isn't completely incongruent with that; Picard was minding his own business, feeling sorry for himself on his vineyard and then trouble, or rather Dahj, found him and energized him to start seeking answers to new questions. The bigger problem I have from a format perspective is the serial element; which isn't inherently a problem when balanced with more episodic stories, but it doesn't look like they'll be doing that here. Keeping the season to a tighter 10 episodes, instead of dragging out a plot for an entire 22-24 episode season, is at least a little better, but like the reviewers in that video said, we figuratively saw only the first ten minutes of what is essentially a feature film - albeit a feature film on steroids, in terms of duration.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 28, 2020 17:02:25 GMT
I agree with everything you said. But --- the review with the two guys had a general attitude of, "We're not really sure, but I think . . ." So --- I'm willing to give them a pass. But my biggest critisms of their review is; 1) the guy on the right who claimed he couldn't hear the girl's name. And 2) the the guy on the left being silly and laughing too much. Other than that, I agree with most, the franchise seems to have abandoned the explore and discover theme. For, internal conflict caused by moral and/or ethical failings of already known species of humanoids. Oh, absolutely. I've said elsewhere, my biggest apprehension going into this series was that, like Discovery, this was going to be another show that would make everything dark and dreary and masquerade it as drama; and I'm tired of that shit. The first episode of Picard hasn't entirely disabused me of that perception either, though I will say there were aspects of it that I found more palatable than Discovery's brand of nihilism. This is just speculation based on the crumbs they've given us in travelers, but I suspect that the story will see Picard's mission this season actually be sanctioned by Starfleet; which would be a nice thing to see if it does play out. Instead of Picard and crew being the underdog sidestepping the authorities, there'd be a glimmer of hope that everything hadn't been lost if there are still good people in Starfleet willing to give the protagonists the benefit of the doubt. I'm less concerned about the exact "seek out new worlds" exploration aspect, since adhering to a rigid format like that can get stale and formulaic; as evidenced with some of the weaker episodes of TNG. At it's core, Star Trek is about the people, whether they're the main characters or the "people" they encounter; it's the interaction and exploration of similarities and differences, at time through some form of conflict and resolution. Many of the better episodes that did this often had less to do with "Captains log, we've begun our standard survey or planet Epsilon IV of the Vega Cluster" and more often in the vein of "Captain's log, we've just detected signs of some strange shit going on a light year away; so we're going to check it out while we're in the area." You know, those times where instead of looking for trouble, trouble finds them. And this whole thing with Dahj and her sister or double or whatever isn't completely incongruent with that; Picard was minding his own business, feeling sorry for himself on his vineyard and then trouble, or rather Dahj, found him and energized him to start seeking answers to new questions. The bigger problem I have from a format perspective is the serial element; which isn't inherently a problem when balanced with more episodic stories, but it doesn't look like they'll be doing that here. Keeping the season to a tighter 10 episodes, instead of dragging out a plot for an entire 22-24 episode season, is at least a little better, but like the reviewers in that video said, we figuratively saw only the first ten minutes of what is essentially a feature film - albeit a feature film on steroids, in terms of duration. Yeah, but like these two reviewers said, Star Trek used to be about a Utopian society seeking to unify the whole galaxy. But this show is about the corruption of Star Fleet and their decision to stop seeking unification. But become isolationists, and refusing inexplicably to help the Romulans when once again --- "inexplicably" their star all of a sudden decided to explode immediately. So that an advanced society of Romulans couldn't deal with this unscientific event, inspite of having an empire that spanned seemingly a quarter of the galaxy. Encompassing many stars and planets. Once again, it's about corruption. More specifically, a breakdown in morality and ethicality of Star Fleet. Just a bigger extension of MTV's "The Real World" and Bravo's "The Real Housewives of wherever". It's another soap opera in outer space. (And what about "The Federation of Planets"? Nobody could help the Romulans?)
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Post by thebayharborbutcher on Jan 28, 2020 18:12:50 GMT
I would like to watch it. The trailers look good. I'm just on the fence about adding CBS All Access to all the other streaming and cable services I have. I'll probably break down eventually though.
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Post by ck100 on Jan 30, 2020 15:40:11 GMT
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 30, 2020 17:40:54 GMT
They playing the first episode for free on PlutoTV.
Not bad but I have a feeling it’s mainly for people nostalgic for Next Generation which I never watched.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 30, 2020 21:13:59 GMT
If they were going for nostalgia it's a huge fail. As I wrote in the other thread the first episode felt like some other sci-fi shoe horned into the Trek franchise. It wasn't bad, it just isn't Star Trek.
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Post by RiP, IMDb on Jan 31, 2020 2:09:45 GMT
If they were going for nostalgia it's a huge fail. As I wrote in the other thread the first episode felt like some other sci-fi shoe horned into the Trek franchise. It wasn't bad, it just isn't Star Trek.
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Post by movieliker on Feb 8, 2020 1:53:43 GMT
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Post by movieliker on Feb 8, 2020 1:58:37 GMT
Anybody know what's up with Raffi?
14 years ago she and Picard were friends working together. 14 years later, she doesn't want to see him, or work with him. Then she doesn't want to go on the mission. Then she shows up unexpectedly but, she's claims she's not on the mission, but just hitching a ride. Then she gives the synth expert a hard time.
What's up with her? Are we supposed to know? Are we supposed to find out later?
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paislene
Junior Member
@paislene
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Post by paislene on Feb 8, 2020 3:05:12 GMT
Anybody know what's up with Raffi? 14 years ago she and Picard were friends working together. 14 years later, she doesn't want to see him, or work with him. Then she doesn't want to go on the mission. Then she shows up unexpectedly but, she's claims she's not on the mission, but just hitching a ride. Then she gives the synth expert a hard time. What's up with her? Are we supposed to know? Are we supposed to find out later? I can state the obvious but I won't , needless to say I think she's very much part of Picard's Team along with the pilot Rios . The assumption is that when Picard resigned from Starfleet , they were both discharged at the same time . And I'm sure there is a longer arc of explanation for them in future episodes .
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