Lynx
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Post by Lynx on Apr 26, 2017 19:27:06 GMT
It's really quite simple. Look around the world. Look at the plants, the animals. The design and uniqueness of each one. They didn't just "evolve".
Then look at Human Beings....really think about it. If it weren't for Greed, Jealousy, Lust, we would have a perfect world. Everyone would be fed, clothed, and living in comfort. If you don't believe it, do some research, you will find that to be 100% true.
Also, remember the concept of time is a human thing. God has been around eternally in the past as well as eternally into the future...in our concept of time. This is what boggles most peoples minds. He may have made a trillion "worlds" already in the past....maybe some of them still exist "out there". We will find out one day.
In the 63 years I've been on earth, the most asked question I have had is: "If there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering in the world". I didn't have that answer until I reached my late 30's and 40's. The answer is He doesn't allow it....we do. He gave us free will and all the raw materials to build a Utopia....which we could have. But as I said before, Greed, Jealousy, etc. don't allow for that to happen. Think about it.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 26, 2017 19:38:41 GMT
LynxThat's not a convincing argument for nonbelievers. This isn't about what makes the most sense, but rather what makes the most sense to the individual. Both sides seem to be clueless about this notion which is odd.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 19:58:22 GMT
It's really quite simple. Look around the world. Look at the plants, the animals. The design and uniqueness of each one. They didn't just "evolve". Yes, that is exactly what they did do. They're still doing it - we can see them doing it. This is nonsensical. The world cannot ever be "perfect" because that's a subjective term and will be different to different people. Trivial example - let's say I fall in love with a woman who loves somebody else. My world isn't perfect unless she loves me. Her world isn't perfect unless she loves her guy. Thus the world cannot possibly be perfect. You are confusing "allow" with "cause". I wouldn't suggest that the christian god causes suffering, at least not directly. But he certainly does allow it. You say this is a deliberate choice, made because he wants to allow free will. Do you not realise that this makes your conception of god an asshole? Seriously. Say you observe a rapist about to rape a woman. It's within your power to stop him - you're Mike Tyson sized, or you have a taser, or whatever. But you choose to allow the rapist to proceed, and your justification is that he should be allowed to do what he wants. This makes you a douchebag! And it's for free will? The free will of the rapist is so important to you... but the free will of the victim doesn't count at all? |
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Lynx
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@lynx0139
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Post by Lynx on Apr 26, 2017 20:00:50 GMT
Most "non-believers" I have met in my life, I found, were people that cannot grasp "the big picture", only stuff pertaining to their own lives. It's kind of like the economy. Most people just think about their own finances as it applies to their own lives. They don't understand the big picture as it applies to the world.....they call it macro-economics. It's just a man-made system to make sure everybody goes out and works for a living. How many people would actually go out and work if they didn't have to, if everything was provided for them....30% ? But what if you could just work at what you enjoy doing....no matter what that is...and still live in comfort? Eventually, most people would want to....again, back to Utopia. The best place I saw this was on Star Trek: The Next Generation. Anyway, this is a no-win argument. That's why the word "faith" comes into play  |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 26, 2017 20:18:57 GMT
"The watchmaker analogy wasn't designed to convince other people."
Is that why you made several posts trying to convince nonbelievers it is a good argument?
I wasn't trying to convince anyone.
I am stating quite plainly that there is nothing wrong with it regarding it's intent, that the debasing of it was purely an atheist ploy to simply dismiss it, & you clearly weren't reading what I stated if you thought for one second I cared about you being convinced by it.
So I'll give you the chance to go back and re-quote everything I said to prove me wrong about that.
"I wasn't trying to convince anyone."
That's not the impression you're giving me (or others). Even if what you're syaing was true, and the watchmaker argument should just be used to convince those that are already convinced, than it's a rather useless argument.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:27:30 GMT
No one comes here to be "convinced." Let's be real: People come here to either argue or comment on topics that interest them. So all the back-and-forth is completely pointless.
People on message boards don't sway my opinions on these issues one way or the other. I go to actual academics for that.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 26, 2017 20:29:45 GMT
I wasn't trying to convince anyone.
I am stating quite plainly that there is nothing wrong with it regarding it's intent, that the debasing of it was purely an atheist ploy to simply dismiss it, & you clearly weren't reading what I stated if you thought for one second I cared about you being convinced by it.
So I'll give you the chance to go back and re-quote everything I said to prove me wrong about that.
"I wasn't trying to convince anyone."
That's not the impression you're giving me (or others). Even if what you're syaing was true, and the watchmaker argument should just be used to convince those that are already convinced, than it's a rather useless argument.
Your impressions being wrong are irrelevant to the reality of the situation.
If you never become a believer I will sleep well at night.
I think you may be confusing me being a Christian and making that obvious with the notion of me convincing others that's what they should be.
That's not my job.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 26, 2017 20:38:13 GMT
No one comes here to be "convinced." Let's be real: People come here to either argue or comment on topics that interest them. So all the back-and-forth is completely pointless. People on message boards don't sway my opinions on these issues one way or the other. I go to actual academics for that. Arguing is a good thing on a message board because it's not that good of a thing in person. It either helps refute a misunderstand or helps you understand who you're dealing with.
If someone continues to argue a point that has been explained, then it makes little sense to waste time on the matter unless it's for fun.
It is entirely true that no one on this board is too terribly interested in converting anyone.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 26, 2017 20:44:47 GMT
No one comes here to be "convinced." Let's be real: People come here to either argue or comment on topics that interest them. So all the back-and-forth is completely pointless. People on message boards don't sway my opinions on these issues one way or the other. I go to actual academics for that. "No one comes here to be "convinced."
Never said they did.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 26, 2017 20:46:57 GMT
"I wasn't trying to convince anyone."
That's not the impression you're giving me (or others). Even if what you're syaing was true, and the watchmaker argument should just be used to convince those that are already convinced, than it's a rather useless argument.
Your impressions being wrong are irrelevant to the reality of the situation.
If you never become a believer I will sleep well at night.
I think you may be confusing me being a Christian and making that obvious with the notion of me convincing others that's what they should be.
That's not my job.
And one big straw man |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:47:24 GMT
No one comes here to be "convinced." Let's be real: People come here to either argue or comment on topics that interest them. So all the back-and-forth is completely pointless. People on message boards don't sway my opinions on these issues one way or the other. I go to actual academics for that. Arguing is a good thing on a message board because it's not that good of a thing in person. It either helps refute a misunderstand or helps you understand who you're dealing with.
If someone continues to argue a point that has been explained, then it makes little sense to waste time on the matter unless it's for fun.
It is entirely true that no one on this board is too terribly interested in converting anyone.
Of course arguing is better on a message board than in person. So if you're the kind of person that NEEDS to argue, then I suppose it's better to do it here than in person. But that's not really what I'm talking about. My point is that it doesn't seem like anyone comes here to truly understand another point of view. They come to shout their opinions and argue about the ones they already disagree with (even if they don't fully understand them). So if that's your thing, then swing away. But to anyone who has serious questions, I wouldn't recommend asking them on a board like this. Do that in more one-off situations with people who actually know what they're talking about (whether they be believers or nonbelievers). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 20:48:00 GMT
No one comes here to be "convinced." Let's be real: People come here to either argue or comment on topics that interest them. So all the back-and-forth is completely pointless. People on message boards don't sway my opinions on these issues one way or the other. I go to actual academics for that. "No one comes here to be "convinced."
Never said they did.
Didn't say you did. Was making a general point. |
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Post by london777 on Apr 26, 2017 21:24:55 GMT
Nonbelievers, what is the most persuasive argument for god?
Money would work for me.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 26, 2017 21:27:49 GMT
Have you ever encountered an argument for god that has made you pause any wonder if such a being might exist? No. The whole idea of a god, and all of the standard "supernatural" rhetoric of all of the main religions has always struck me as completely absurd, incoherent, etc. In addition, a lot of arguments for god strike me as completely stupid--like the ontological argument, for example. And in that case, it's not just arguments for god that strike me that way. A lot of other philosophical arguments that have a decent amount of respect strike me as completely stupid, too--like the p-zombie argument, Mary's Room, etc. |
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 26, 2017 22:02:02 GMT
If God wanted me to believe then God would make me believe. Pretty much all the believers out there claim that God lets himself be known to them and they can feel his presence. Well - he's never done that to me. So he obviously doesn't want me to believe.
Otherwise it's all just indoctrination and wishful thinking.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 26, 2017 22:30:53 GMT
OpiateOfTheMassesSo the only way to believe is for God to act the way you want him to act.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 26, 2017 22:44:47 GMT
@zackbop
I don;t know. I think it would be awesome to learn something here and despite the bickering between some groups, I think between the more normal of the religious and non-religious, there can be quite a bit of common ground that leads to new information. That's another reason.
I don't NEED to be here, but on occasion, debate is good. It has little to do with the people we argue with and more to do with the notion of making sure that what they say still has no merit at least in terms of anything other than their opinion.
If people actually say something worthwhile or even logical, then I've never had an issue with it. Most talk from people who hate religion can't help but to be, to put it bluntly, idiotic.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 26, 2017 22:47:30 GMT
Your impressions being wrong are irrelevant to the reality of the situation.
If you never become a believer I will sleep well at night.
I think you may be confusing me being a Christian and making that obvious with the notion of me convincing others that's what they should be.
That's not my job.
And one big straw man Well, the only for it not to be a strawman would be what exactly? Admitting that your wrong thinking was right maybe? What was the point and then I'll try to stay on it. |
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 26, 2017 22:48:06 GMT
tpfkar That's definitely where you have to go when you're emotionally attached but have zip to back it up. People should always be open to convincing arguments, and always be on the lookout for their built in biases. In every aspect of life. That doesn't mean elevating flawed and invested arguments just because somebody repeats them. haven't had a dream in a long time |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 26, 2017 22:55:28 GMT
Well, the only for it not to be a strawman would be what exactly? Admitting that your wrong thinking was right maybe? What was the point and then I'll try to stay on it. You were stating that you felt I believed you trying to "convert" people, I never said anything to suggest that. All I stated was I got the impression you initially believed the Watchmaker argument could be used to persuade nonbelievers seeing how you were debating with them about it throughout this thread, whether you yourself actually use it to convert others wasn't my argument. If you mean to say it's really only good for preaching to the choir, then fine, but again I just find that to be a useless argument if that's the case. |
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