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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 24, 2020 23:16:39 GMT
"Strike me down in anger and I'll always be with you, just like your father" and "See you around kid" would kind of imply he's not just gonna fuck off completely. Rose is the fourth biggest protagonist by the end of TLJ, and the second one's love interest. How many times are you gonna split hairs and argue over senantics with me? Again, whatever you want to call her, TLJ would imply she'd have more than 70 seconds of screentime in the following movie. Rose was an unimportant character. They were tying up the trilogy and had to trim the fat giving a more satisfying conclusion to Rey,Finn,Poe and Kylo. It probably didn't help that Rose was a divisive character and was a peg warmer. Maz was fairly important in TFA and reduced to cameo in TLJ, sometimes new creative decisions are for the best. Trim the fat by adding two completely new female protagonists? Trim the fat by bringing in Dominic Monaghan and giving him lines Rose could have said? The second lead's love interest is "unimportant"...? Look, I get it: you like Rise of Skywalker and probably don't like TLJ, and that's perfectly fine. But your willful ignorance makes you sound like an asshole. Stop trying to argue against facts to justify liking TRoS. TLJ was retconned, Colin's script is closer to RJ's ideas, and Rose, say what you want about her, wasn't "unimportant". |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 24, 2020 23:24:59 GMT
the concept art of JJ's film looked better also, concept art always looks better. How could Luke never died , did he not read RJ's script. Yes, he wanted 8 to be changed with Luke living, so he could tell the story he wanted to tell with 9. They didn't want to do that. Yet the concept art features Luke as a force ghost, as does every breakdown of Colin's script. |
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 24, 2020 23:39:39 GMT
Yet the concept art features Luke as a force ghost, as does every breakdown of Colin's script. Or hologram...
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 24, 2020 23:48:34 GMT
Yet the concept art features Luke as a force ghost, as does every breakdown of Colin's script. Or hologram... Yeah, no. He's very much a force ghost in Colin's version. Colin confirmed the script leaks are real. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. |
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 25, 2020 0:46:42 GMT
Yeah, no. He's very much a force ghost in Colin's version. Colin confirmed the script leaks are real. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Oh, he did as of 17 hours ago on his Twitter account. I see. Very interesting...I concede on this point.  It isn't so much you're the bearer of bad news, as I am very confused by Mark Hamill's prior comments in regards to Trevorrow's work on the ST. 
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 25, 2020 5:28:52 GMT
Yeah, no. He's very much a force ghost in Colin's version. Colin confirmed the script leaks are real. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Oh, he did as of 17 hours ago on his Twitter account. I see. Very interesting...I concede on this point. It isn't so much you're the bearer of bad news, as I am very confused by Mark Hamill's prior comments in regards to Trevorrow's work on the ST. As am I. But I think I’m starting to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Hamill’s comments may have been based on earlier drafts of Trevorrow’s script. Trevorrow actually began working on episode 9 as early as August 2015. But he wasn’t fired until September 2017. It’s highly unlikely he only had one draft in all of that time. And it’s very likely his script went through considerable changes over the entire course of that time. And at one point there were leak rumors that harmonized with Mark’s comments: www.inverse.com/article/42797-star-wars-episode-ix-rumor-luke-livesBut the final draft of Trevorrow’s script (before he was fired) does indeed have Luke Skywalker as a Force ghost: www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/01/full-breakdown-of-colin-trevorrows-star-wars-episode-ix-story.html
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 25, 2020 17:53:07 GMT
Great job putting it all together! That makes sense! 
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 25, 2020 18:05:38 GMT
Great job putting it all together! That makes sense!
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 26, 2020 4:09:02 GMT
Oh, he did as of 17 hours ago on his Twitter account. I see. Very interesting...I concede on this point. It isn't so much you're the bearer of bad news, as I am very confused by Mark Hamill's prior comments in regards to Trevorrow's work on the ST. As am I. But I think I’m starting to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Hamill’s comments may have been based on earlier drafts of Trevorrow’s script. Trevorrow actually began working on episode 9 as early as August 2015. But he wasn’t fired until September 2017. It’s highly unlikely he only had one draft in all of that time. And it’s very likely his script went through considerable changes over the entire course of that time. And at one point there were leak rumors that harmonized with Mark’s comments: www.inverse.com/article/42797-star-wars-episode-ix-rumor-luke-livesBut the final draft of Trevorrow’s script (before he was fired) does indeed have Luke Skywalker as a Force ghost: www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/01/full-breakdown-of-colin-trevorrows-star-wars-episode-ix-story.html What exactly were Hamill's comments? From what I'm gathering, he simply liked what Colin did with the character. But even as a force ghost, Luke sounds pretty badass in his version, training Rey from beyond the grave and haunting Kylo and whatnot. So I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction. The biggest confirmed difference between Colin's version and the final episode 9 is that Kylo Ren isn't redeemed, which I can see the producers having a problem with given the psychotic fanbase of future domestic abusers and victims that pity the character and love Reylo. But in any case, I've always figured Colin got fired because of The Book of Henry. The GoT guys being fired after backlash to GoT season 8 is similarly suspect. |
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 26, 2020 5:20:09 GMT
What exactly were Hamill's comments? From what I'm gathering, he simply liked what Colin did with the character. But even as a force ghost, Luke sounds pretty badass in his version, training Rey from beyond the grave and haunting Kylo and whatnot. So I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction. The biggest confirmed difference between Colin's version and the final episode 9 is that Kylo Ren isn't redeemed, which I can see the producers having a problem with given the psychotic fanbase of future domestic abusers and victims that pity the character and love Reylo. But in any case, I've always figured Colin got fired because of The Book of Henry. The GoT guys being fired after backlash to GoT season 8 is similarly suspect. He's spoken numerous times about it during the whole massive press tour he did for The Last Jedi. I wish I could just link you all the times where he spoke about it, but stuff so quickly gets lost in the abyss that is the Internet, unfortunately. For perspective for example, they say about 500 hours of content got uploaded every minute to Youtube in 2019...and that's just Youtube!  Over the course of the press tour though, he said he only asked for two things for returning to the role in the ST: (1) no cameos and (2) a run of the trilogy as Luke. He got neither. Hamill wanted Luke to live until the end of 9. He said he had discussions with Colin (and George Lucas) about what direction they would take with Luke. He said he was 'on the same page' with Trevorrow in regards to how Luke should be portrayed. Lucas also agreed with Trevorrow's take. He also said that Snoke was going to live into 9 according to the discussions they had and that it was intended to focus on the concepts behind the Force. This was echoed by Colin in his early press interviews about Star Wars at the red carpet for Episode 7. He said that he was interested in the spiritual side of Star Wars. He said he viewed The Force as a religion and that's so important to so many fans in that regard - including himself. In his official statement about leaving Episode 9, he also echoed what Hamill said about how he was so proud to be able to tell his vision to George Lucas and Luke Skywalker (referencing Mark Hamill of course). While Hamill's comments are harder to put here due to the vast amount of content out there about him talking about Star Wars for 40+ years, I can link Colin's statements if you like. His tenure with Star Wars was much shorter lived than Hamill's...
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 26, 2020 8:40:20 GMT
What exactly were Hamill's comments? From what I'm gathering, he simply liked what Colin did with the character. But even as a force ghost, Luke sounds pretty badass in his version, training Rey from beyond the grave and haunting Kylo and whatnot. So I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction. The biggest confirmed difference between Colin's version and the final episode 9 is that Kylo Ren isn't redeemed, which I can see the producers having a problem with given the psychotic fanbase of future domestic abusers and victims that pity the character and love Reylo. But in any case, I've always figured Colin got fired because of The Book of Henry. The GoT guys being fired after backlash to GoT season 8 is similarly suspect. He's spoken numerous times about it during the whole massive press tour he did for The Last Jedi. I wish I could just link you all the times where he spoke about it, but stuff so quickly gets lost in the abyss that is the Internet, unfortunately. For perspective for example, they say about 500 hours of content got uploaded every minute to Youtube in 2019...and that's just Youtube! Over the course of the press tour though, he said he only asked for two things for returning to the role in the ST: (1) no cameos and (2) a run of the trilogy as Luke. He got neither. Hamill wanted Luke to live until the end of 9. He said he had discussions with Colin (and George Lucas) about what direction they would take with Luke. He said he was 'on the same page' with Trevorrow in regards to how Luke should be portrayed. Lucas also agreed with Trevorrow's take. He also said that Snoke was going to live into 9 according to the discussions they had and that it was intended to focus on the concepts behind the Force. This was echoed by Colin in his early press interviews about Star Wars at the red carpet for Episode 7. He said that he was interested in the spiritual side of Star Wars. He said he viewed The Force as a religion and that's so important to so many fans in that regard - including himself. In his official statement about leaving Episode 9, he also echoed what Hamill said about how he was so proud to be able to tell his vision to George Lucas and Luke Skywalker (referencing Mark Hamill of course). While Hamill's comments are harder to put here due to the vast amount of content out there about him talking about Star Wars for 40+ years, I can link Colin's statements if you like. His tenure with Star Wars was much shorter lived than Hamill's... Sure, go for it. I'm honestly still a little dubious from those Mark paraphrases. We all know he didn't like the portrayal of Luke as a jaded old man in TLJ, so I can see how Colin's story would appeal to him even with Luke as a ghost - he's grown past the cynicism in TLJ and finally gets to be the wise sage and teacher. But maybe those Colin statements shed more light on it. |
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 26, 2020 22:50:16 GMT
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Jan 27, 2020 3:45:22 GMT
'Member when Book of Henry came out, and the Fandom Menace was crying about how Trevorrow was going to further ruin their childhoods?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 27, 2020 5:11:53 GMT
'Member when Book of Henry came out, and the Fandom Menace was crying about how Trevorrow was going to further ruin their childhoods? No, not really. I remember some scattered complaints. But I don’t remember that being a universal sentiment of the Fandom Menace. |
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 27, 2020 6:32:26 GMT
'Member when Book of Henry came out, and the Fandom Menace was crying about how Trevorrow was going to further ruin their childhoods? No, not really. I remember some scattered complaints. But I don’t remember that being a universal sentiment of the Fandom Menace. Well, there was an online petition for Trevorrow's removal from Star Wars, so for once, Creped is right about something. Personally, I liked Safety Not Guaranteed and Jurassic World was ok...about the same as all the other Jurassic Park movies. For the fourth installment in a series about dinosaurs in modern times that get loose, it was better than it had a right to be. 
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 28, 2020 1:13:24 GMT
Sure, go for it. I'm honestly still a little dubious from those Mark paraphrases. We all know he didn't like the portrayal of Luke as a jaded old man in TLJ, so I can see how Colin's story would appeal to him even with Luke as a ghost - he's grown past the cynicism in TLJ and finally gets to be the wise sage and teacher. But maybe those Colin statements shed more light on it. Which part doesn't sit right with you? I'm just not getting anything conclusive from these comments that Colin intended Luke to live. It seems like "Mark Hamill wanted to be in all three + likes Colin's take on Luke = Luke is alive in 9". But Mark obviously had more problems with TLJ than just getting killed off, so his comments can be interpreted in different ways. I think the hiccup here is the belief that Luke doesn't matter once he's dead. As we can see in the plot leaks, Luke very much matters in Duel of the Fates. He's training Rey, and simultaneously trying to redeem Kylo. All basically what one would expect Luke to be doing in 9 whether alive or dead. It's entirely possible Colin wanted Luke alive in 9, and force ghost Luke was a compromise later (although, to me, his emphasis on the spiritual side of SW lends support to making a literal spirit one of the main characters) but the fact that a Colin draft of 9 with Luke dead exists at all proves that it wasn't that big of a deal to him. Certainly not something to exit the project or get fired over. Likewise, Snoke isn't in Duel of the Fates or explicitly mentioned in those comments, so where does the idea that Colin wanted Snoke in 9 come from? |
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 28, 2020 2:34:38 GMT
I'm just not getting anything conclusive from these comments that Colin intended Luke to live. It seems like "Mark Hamill wanted to be in all three + likes Colin's take on Luke = Luke is alive in 9". But Mark obviously had more problems with TLJ than just getting killed off, so his comments can be interpreted in different ways. I think the hiccup here is the belief that Luke doesn't matter once he's dead. As we can see in the plot leaks, Luke very much matters in Duel of the Fates. He's training Rey, and simultaneously trying to redeem Kylo. All basically what one would expect Luke to be doing in 9 whether alive or dead. It's entirely possible Colin wanted Luke alive in 9, and force ghost Luke was a compromise later (although, to me, his emphasis on the spiritual side of SW lends support to making a literal spirit one of the main characters) but the fact that a Colin draft of 9 with Luke dead exists at all proves that it wasn't that big of a deal to him. Certainly not something to exit the project or get fired over.
Likewise, Snoke isn't in Duel of the Fates or explicitly mentioned in those comments, so where does the idea that Colin wanted Snoke in 9 come from? I'm still on the lookout for a specific quote, but am having trouble relocating it as I can't remember the exact wording of it (also the vast amount of content in the press about 9 has buried the content of what "could have been" with the ST). It's where Mark was talking a little more about 9 in terms of who would be the antagonist (Snoke alive) and what Luke's role would be (surviving and serving the Obi-Wan/Yoda type of role...which Hamill found humorous as he always thought of Guinness as being old when they were shooting Episode 4 and now he was the old guy haha). It's really annoying I'm having trouble with finding it...I'll keep looking. I'm not alone in having come across it because Waxer-n-boil came across it as well. Eve without it though, I'll say that there's enough content I posted above to put it together: We know from these Mark Hamill quotes that George Lucas had ideas for the ST in terms of Luke's story but was ignored. movieweb.com/star-wars-9-original-story-luke-died-george-lucas/screenrant.com/mark-hamill-george-lucas-advice-disney-star-wars/Given the understanding of Mark 'Being on the same page' with Colin and Lucas regarding the direction of Luke/Snoke in the ST, they all envisioned Luke/Snoke living for Episode 9. They all envisioned Luke to build of OT Luke. Lucas particularly wanted Luke to live to train Leia. Mark wanted Luke to live to have a prominent role throughout the trilogy and for the ST to be true to the Jedi. Mark said at one time that while making Episode 8, he kept thinking of Lucas' Luke, and soon realized he had to let that go because it didn't serve the movie. He said it was like he was playing a different character in 8 named, Jake Skywalker. cosmicbook.news/mark-hamill-star-wars-outraged-shocked-tricked-mistakeIt isn't so much Luke doesn't matter in death. In fact, if anyone would still matter in Star Wars after dying, it would be those characters who were Jedi in life because of Force Ghosts. Episode 9 would have just been a different interpretation of the characters had Hamill, Lucas, and Trevorrow been allowed to do their version. The only piece of the story that has come out that would have been the same (according to what's been said) is that Luke would still have gone to the island in Lucas' version. Why he would have gone there, how he would have behaved, and what he would have done while there are the big mysteries. Having said all this, I really wish Mark Hamill had gotten script approval in his contract before signing on for the ST...oh well, I guess.  I'm completely in agreement with you that Trevorrow was able to move on and try a crack at giving Disney what they wanted. It would have been unprofessional to throw a fit just because he didn't get his way. Also, he would have been under contract to at least try until Disney terminated his contract.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 28, 2020 3:50:52 GMT
I'm just not getting anything conclusive from these comments that Colin intended Luke to live. It seems like "Mark Hamill wanted to be in all three + likes Colin's take on Luke = Luke is alive in 9". But Mark obviously had more problems with TLJ than just getting killed off, so his comments can be interpreted in different ways. I think the hiccup here is the belief that Luke doesn't matter once he's dead. As we can see in the plot leaks, Luke very much matters in Duel of the Fates. He's training Rey, and simultaneously trying to redeem Kylo. All basically what one would expect Luke to be doing in 9 whether alive or dead. It's entirely possible Colin wanted Luke alive in 9, and force ghost Luke was a compromise later (although, to me, his emphasis on the spiritual side of SW lends support to making a literal spirit one of the main characters) but the fact that a Colin draft of 9 with Luke dead exists at all proves that it wasn't that big of a deal to him. Certainly not something to exit the project or get fired over.
Likewise, Snoke isn't in Duel of the Fates or explicitly mentioned in those comments, so where does the idea that Colin wanted Snoke in 9 come from? I'm still on the lookout for a specific quote, but am having trouble relocating it as I can't remember the exact wording of it (also the vast amount of content in the press about 9 has buried the content of what "could have been" with the ST). It's where Mark was talking a little more about 9 in terms of who would be the antagonist (Snoke alive) and what Luke's role would be (surviving and serving the Obi-Wan/Yoda type of role...which Hamill found humorous as he always thought of Guinness as being old when they were shooting Episode 4 and now he was the old guy haha). It's really annoying I'm having trouble with finding it...I'll keep looking. I'm not alone in having come across it because Waxer-n-boil came across it as well. Eve without it though, I'll say that there's enough content I posted above to put it together: We know from these Mark Hamill quotes that George Lucas had ideas for the ST in terms of Luke's story but was ignored. movieweb.com/star-wars-9-original-story-luke-died-george-lucas/screenrant.com/mark-hamill-george-lucas-advice-disney-star-wars/Given the understanding of Mark 'Being on the same page' with Colin and Lucas regarding the direction of Luke/Snoke in the ST, they all envisioned Luke/Snoke living for Episode 9. They all envisioned Luke to build of OT Luke. Lucas particularly wanted Luke to live to train Leia. Mark wanted Luke to live to have a prominent role throughout the trilogy and for the ST to be true to the Jedi. Mark said at one time that while making Episode 8, he kept thinking of Lucas' Luke, and soon realized he had to let that go because it didn't serve the movie. He said it was like he was playing a different character in 8 named, Jake Skywalker. cosmicbook.news/mark-hamill-star-wars-outraged-shocked-tricked-mistakeIt isn't so much Luke doesn't matter in death. In fact, if anyone would still matter in Star Wars after dying, it would be those characters who were Jedi in life because of Force Ghosts. Episode 9 would have just been a different interpretation of the characters had Hamill, Lucas, and Trevorrow been allowed to do their version. The only piece of the story that has come out that would have been the same (according to what's been said) is that Luke would still have gone to the island in Lucas' version. Why he would have gone there, how he would have behaved, and what he would have done while there are the big mysteries. Having said all this, I really wish Mark Hamill had gotten script approval in his contract before signing on for the ST...oh well, I guess. I'm completely in agreement with you that Trevorrow was able to move on and try a crack at giving Disney what they wanted. It would have been unprofessional to throw a fit just because he didn't get his way. Also, he would have been under contract to at least try until Disney terminated his contract. Yep. Every writer that had a version or any input on Luke Skywalker, they all had him going into exile. But why he went into exile and what kind of character he was is where things get drastically different per each different writer. Rian Johnson’s version was to make Luke as inept and degraded as possible. Here is yet another example of him modifying Luke in that direction... "When we were doing [The Force Awakens], Rian said, 'We might have boulders floating to show your Force emanating', so I was led to believe that I still had the Force and it was really strong in me," Hamill said. "When I read [The Last Jedi] before [The Force Awakens] came out, I said 'what?!" and called JJ [Abrams] or Rian [Johnson] to say, 'Are you guys aware of this? Have you seen a cut? Is there floating boulders?' And they said, 'No, we caught that and we worked it all out.'"— (Hamill commenting on a scene that had Luke demonstrating his proficiency in using the Force as he prepares to mentor Rey) The more information you find out the more obvious it becomes that they (Johnson, and with Kennedy’s influence) trashed Luke’s character on purpose because they were obsessed with Rey not having any competition or sharing any spotlight. They were so tweaked out over it they were enthusiastically willing to trash an iconic character. They should’ve never brought the OT characters into this trilogy in the first place. |
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 28, 2020 5:50:23 GMT
Yep. Every writer that had a version or any input on Luke Skywalker, they all had him going into exile. But why he went into exile and what kind of character he was is where things get drastically different per each different writer. Rian Johnson’s version was to make Luke as inept and degraded as possible. Here is yet another example of him modifying Luke in that direction... "When we were doing [The Force Awakens], Rian said, 'We might have boulders floating to show your Force emanating', so I was led to believe that I still had the Force and it was really strong in me," Hamill said. "When I read [The Last Jedi] before [The Force Awakens] came out, I said 'what?!" and called JJ [Abrams] or Rian [Johnson] to say, 'Are you guys aware of this? Have you seen a cut? Is there floating boulders?' And they said, 'No, we caught that and we worked it all out.'"— (Hamill commenting on a scene that had Luke demonstrating his proficiency in using the Force as he prepares to mentor Rey) The more information you find out the more obvious it becomes that they (Johnson, and with Kennedy’s influence) trashed Luke’s character on purpose because they were obsessed with Rey not having any competition or sharing any spotlight. They were so tweaked out over it they were enthusiastically willing to trash an iconic character. They should’ve never brought the OT characters into this trilogy in the first place.That's what I find "funny" about the whole argument by Disney that "We were just doing George Lucas' idea [putting Luke on the island] in Episode 8!" Yeah...? No. Even "doing George Lucas' idea", it isn't going to be exactly George Lucas' idea unless he's there on set in control of how the idea is executed. You can take any idea, and if there's a lack of talent/competency/vision, it's going to suck. It doesn't matter if it's an idea from Lucas' head/notes, the OT, the PT, or any other movie. I agree. No, they shouldn't have. They said that, "Oh, this trilogy was never about the original characters! It's about the new generation of characters we're creating." Yeah...? No. The very first piece of news they gave us about Star Wars after they got the rights in 2012, was releasing this picture with the announcement the original actors Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford, Peter Mayhew, Anthony Daniels, and Kenny Baker would be returning to their original roles.  Even from the get-go, they were selling their first new Star Wars movies off the original cast/nostalgia.
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), I was able to find a little bit of Mark Hamill on 9 and the talks he had. I'll keep searching as time goes on to rediscover the other content too as I think it's good just to have a record of everything he says about it too (Mark really is a talker haha). Here's one video 0:41 into the video where he talks about Colin and how he had conversations with him - specifying that some of the conversations happened 'even' with The Last Jedi's influence on Luke, which indicates there were discussions about Luke without Episode 8's influence.
