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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 28, 2020 9:29:24 GMT
That shot reminds me of just how rad ESB Revisted is. It's one of the best fan edits I've ever seen. "rad" video game slapstick maybe, especially how the AT-ST looks up before crushed by the AT-AT.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 28, 2020 9:40:40 GMT
Yeah, I think you and I pretty much agree... Except for the origin story of the main characters... TPM felt more like a "spinoff" or "prequel to a prequel" film, at least to me, and it was not part of the main story line featured in Episodes 2-6. Indeed. The bummer of it is, there have been two separate shows just on the Clone Wars, so Lucas could have easily scrapped TPM and made a movie more interconnected to II and III. that is like saying one does not require the first act of a story where everything is set up - from depicting the heyday and corruption of the Republic, Anakin's psychological backgrounds, to Palpatine's rise to the duel of the fates. This trilogy is clearly structured as day, twilight and night, a 3 act play. It's not about the clone wars, but about Anakin, Palpatine/dictatorship's rise and the fall of democracy and the Jedi. As much as I am a fan of the Clone Wars shows, there is nothing essential for the overall story or substance. It's just a bunch of fun war stories. There is a perfectly good reason why Lucas is hailed a brilliant story teller of our time. Bummer is, everybody thinks himself a story teller nowadays.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 28, 2020 10:41:02 GMT
Indeed. The bummer of it is, there have been two separate shows just on the Clone Wars, so Lucas could have easily scrapped TPM and made a movie more interconnected to II and III. that is like saying one does not require the first act of a story where everything is set up - from depicting the heyday and corruption of the Republic, Anakin's psychological backgrounds, to Palpatine's rise to the duel of the fates. This trilogy is clearly structured as day, twilight and night, a 3 act play. It's not about the clone wars, but about Anakin, Palpatine/dictatorship's rise and the fall of democracy and the Jedi. As much as I am a fan of the Clone Wars shows, there is nothing essential for the overall story or substance. It's just a bunch of fun war stories. There is a perfectly good reason why Lucas is hailed a brilliant story teller of our time. Bummer is, everybody thinks himself a story teller nowadays. First of all, if Lucas really wanted to, he could have made the first movie about finding Anakin and Palpatine becoming chancellor while still centering it around the Clone Wars rather than some trade dispute. You don't need to be a storyteller to know that giving a trilogy a through line is usually a good idea. The OT being just one example. Second, while you're over there waxing poetic about the fall of democracy and rise of dictatorships, Palpatine becoming chancellor in a democratic election isn't really *essential* to that theme. It's the part afterwards where he uses the Clone Wars to consolidate power, which indeed in explored further in the CG animated show such as the bank episodes. You also mention the Jedi as essential for the trilogy's substance, yet they have almost zero role in TPM while being given substantially more character and depth in these shows than ANY of the films. Third, TPM certainly could have done better in first act set up. Obi-Wan loving Anakin and him being like his brother? That "pathetic lifeform" he had 1-2 exchanges with? The only relationship from the next two films set up worse is arguably that of Anakin and his future wife/babysitter.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 28, 2020 10:42:09 GMT
Indeed. The bummer of it is, there have been two separate shows just on the Clone Wars, so Lucas could have easily scrapped TPM and made a movie more interconnected to II and III. that is like saying one does not require the first act of a story where everything is set up - from depicting the heyday and corruption of the Republic, Anakin's psychological backgrounds, to Palpatine's rise to the duel of the fates. This trilogy is clearly structured as day, twilight and night, a 3 act play. It's not about the clone wars, but about Anakin, Palpatine/dictatorship's rise and the fall of democracy and the Jedi. As much as I am a fan of the Clone Wars shows, there is nothing essential for the overall story or substance. It's just a bunch of fun war stories. There is a perfectly good reason why Lucas is hailed a brilliant story teller of our time. Bummer is, everybody thinks himself a story teller nowadays. Well, despite the plethora of other problems Phantom Menace has, it's biggest sin was Jake Lloyd as Anakin and just overall starting the story when Anakin is just kid. It's jarring enough to make you think, "He's supposed to Vader when he grows up?"And this isn't a sleight against Lloyd as he obviously did the best he could do with what he had, or rather what he wasn't given by your so called story telling genius; absolutely no direction. And Lloyd's future life decisions were his and his alone obviously, but Lucas really did ruin his film career by casting him. I know you got a chubby for the guy, that's fine, but there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff with Lucas they really contradict that last statement of yours.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jan 28, 2020 12:27:50 GMT
I love how Revenge of the Sith is too dark. Hilarious. It is still a kid's movie. This thread is too funny.
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Jason143
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Post by Jason143 on Jan 28, 2020 13:30:42 GMT
The payoff scenes of each culminating storyline work. One is the greek trajedy you speak of Anakins final duel with Obi Wan is thrilling and tense with an epic score in the backdrop of a literal hell symbolizing the devil incarnate within Anakin is inevitable. "You were the chosen one" dialogue at the end works because the build up to that point has been earned through solid execution of that storyarc over 3 movies. The pathetic "I am all the Jedi" in TROS is conversely NOT earned and comes off as corny and inorganic. Not really. Christensen is so out of his depth, every line and performance is so unnatural. Sandwiched in between these scenes are big battles, big fights and the nonsense spectacle that you chastised the Sequel Trilogy for. The duel is so pompously overblown, it's like a video game. "You were the chosen one" makes little dramatic impact because everything that preceded it was dull action, wooden dialogue and shallow characterisation. More importantly, these two guys had no chemistry on screen, you wouldn't have believed they were friends if the film told you. By the way, I know you're a fanatic, so you have personal bias towards the Disney films. I have a reality check for you. All of these movies are products. They are all silly fun, even Star Wars. They are a theme park journey of spectacle. Anyone who finds them deep is wallowing in the infantile. It wasnt dull action it was a fantastic duel that used its environment and topography very appropriately, something the newer movies have sorely lacked. No chemistry? The opening to ROTS is a marvelous display of visuals but more importantly gives us great sense of friendship and comradery between master and apprentice. The chemistry between them is excellent. Not sure which movie you were watching though. Wooden dialogue you are being incredibly disingenuous. "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you" is spoken with more heart and emotion than anything in TROS. I repeat again, "I am all the Jedi". (say it in the most robotic voice you can manage)
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 28, 2020 14:16:09 GMT
"rad" video game slapstick maybe, especially how the AT-ST looks up before crushed by the AT-AT. I know it's not as deep or complex as the spinning wheel car than grows legs and gallops like a horse....
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 28, 2020 15:26:16 GMT
"rad" video game slapstick maybe, especially how the AT-ST looks up before crushed by the AT-AT. I know it's not as deep or complex as the spinning wheel car than grows legs and gallops like a horse.... I would hardly ascribe those terms to fanfiction slapstic trying to evoke that hilarious scene of the AT-ST desperately stumbling over Ewok logs. If anything - ship design-wise - the only thing deep or complex is the evolutionary ship design in the Lucas films. Eg in Episode II as told by Lucas in the commentary: We see Obi Wan's triangular Jedi police-car (design-wise) turned into triangular proto-Star Destroyers at the end. A brilliant metaphor of how the republic has militarized and the Jedi are losing power, the empire grows out of the republic like a cancer. as with the balance concept, unrivaled visual storytelling
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 28, 2020 15:45:26 GMT
If anything - ship design-wise - the only thing deep or complex is the evolutionary ship design in the Lucas films. Eg in Episode II as told by Lucas in the commentary: We see Obi Wan's triangular Jedi police-car (design-wise) turned into triangular proto-Star Destroyers at the end. A brilliant metaphor of how the republic has militarized and the Jedi are losing power, the empire grows out of the republic like a cancer. Pretty basic stuff....
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senan90
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Post by senan90 on Jan 28, 2020 17:16:54 GMT
Not really. Christensen is so out of his depth, every line and performance is so unnatural. Sandwiched in between these scenes are big battles, big fights and the nonsense spectacle that you chastised the Sequel Trilogy for. The duel is so pompously overblown, it's like a video game. "You were the chosen one" makes little dramatic impact because everything that preceded it was dull action, wooden dialogue and shallow characterisation. More importantly, these two guys had no chemistry on screen, you wouldn't have believed they were friends if the film told you. By the way, I know you're a fanatic, so you have personal bias towards the Disney films. I have a reality check for you. All of these movies are products. They are all silly fun, even Star Wars. They are a theme park journey of spectacle. Anyone who finds them deep is wallowing in the infantile. It wasnt dull action it was a fantastic duel that used its environment and topography very appropriately, something the newer movies have sorely lacked. No chemistry? The opening to ROTS is a marvelous display of visuals but more importantly gives us great sense of friendship and comradery between master and apprentice. The chemistry between them is excellent. Not sure which movie you were watching though. Wooden dialogue you are being incredibly disingenuous. "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you" is spoken with more heart and emotion than anything in TROS. I repeat again, "I am all the Jedi". (say it in the most robotic voice you can manage) You have so much shit on screen, it's a mess that lacks any dramatic or cinematic tension, it's like a video game. (Thanks for ignoring the "spectacle" criticism). Contrast that to Luke vs Vader in Empire, Ben vs Vader in Star Wars, or Rey vs Kylo in TFA, those scenes had emotion and impact. "I have failed you Anakin" Again, no payoff, and it's you who is disingenuous; "I am all the Jedi" is an up-yours, like Luke's line to the Emperor in ROTJ. The lines that Rey and Kylo have in the series are spoken with heart and emotion because the characters feel like real people and have great chemistry. Especially in the climax of TLJ where Rey tries to encourage him to do good.
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Jan 29, 2020 7:32:31 GMT
I remember seeing that when it aired.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 30, 2020 15:58:51 GMT
To the people I've spoken to personally TPM is by far the most reviled, and I agree. Seems like this thread for the most part agrees as well (so far).
IMO: TPM has many flaws that I'm not going to get into yet again, poor filmmaking being one of them. But the biggest is that its a totally unnecessary story. I've always said- you could get rid of TPM and it wouldn't change a thing in the overall saga at all.
The story could have started with AOTC as part 1, ROTS as part 2, and some great movie about the time between that and ANH as part 3 so we could see Darth Vader AS DARTH VADER actually kicking some ass. In five minutes of screen time ROGUE ONE shows us better Darth Vader than anything we saw in ALL three prequels!!! Come on!
Instead what we got was some lackluster movies of which ROTS is the best. IMO Don't cut my head off!
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 30, 2020 16:11:00 GMT
The story could have started with AOTC as part 1, ROTS as part 2, and some great movie about the time between that and ANH as part 3 so we could see Darth Vader AS DARTH VADER actually kicking some ass. In five minutes of screen time ROGUE ONE shows us better Darth Vader than anything we saw in ALL three prequels!!! Come on!
I agree that AOTC should have been episode I, but I think ROTS could have been split up for episodes II and III to give Anakin's fall a little more time to develop and also show a little more of the aftermath.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Jan 30, 2020 16:11:36 GMT
The story could have started with AOTC as part 1, ROTS as part 2, and some great movie about the time between that and ANH as part 3 so we could see Darth Vader AS DARTH VADER actually kicking some ass.
brilliant suggestion, let's replace the first act - setting out the origins and psychological backgrounds, the rise of Palpatine, the world building & duel of the fates - with a episodic snuff film where we see Vader kill off some sorry Jedi survivors...again. I am so looking forward to your envisaged masterworks burning in development hell... cringe, yes a rushed Force-Unleashed video game Vader ripping a giant plot hole right at the beginning of New Hope - utter brilliance indeed. Go watch your Disney movies, Is there even much left to cut off?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 30, 2020 20:19:01 GMT
The story could have started with AOTC as part 1, ROTS as part 2, and some great movie about the time between that and ANH as part 3 so we could see Darth Vader AS DARTH VADER actually kicking some ass. In five minutes of screen time ROGUE ONE shows us better Darth Vader than anything we saw in ALL three prequels!!! Come on!
I agree that AOTC should have been episode I, but I think ROTS could have been split up for episodes II and III to give Anakin's fall a little more time to develop and also show a little more of the aftermath. Yeah that works too. Another way that I've considered would be: AOTC is episode one, a movie that takes place during the clone wars would be episode 2, and ROTS remains episode 3.
There's any number of ways that the overall saga works WITHOUT TPM. Its just a useless movie, aside from some nice FX and production design (and the duel of fates scenes).
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 30, 2020 20:20:33 GMT
The story could have started with AOTC as part 1, ROTS as part 2, and some great movie about the time between that and ANH as part 3 so we could see Darth Vader AS DARTH VADER actually kicking some ass.
brilliant suggestion, let's replace the first act - setting out the origins and psychological backgrounds, the rise of Palpatine, the world building & duel of the fates - with a episodic snuff film where we see Vader kill off some sorry Jedi survivors...again. I am so looking forward to your envisaged masterworks burning in development hell... cringe, yes a rushed Force-Unleashed video game Vader ripping a giant plot hole right at the beginning of New Hope - utter brilliance indeed. Go watch your Disney movies, Is there even much left to cut off? Why do I get the feeling that we disagree?
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