senan90
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@senan90
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Post by senan90 on Feb 16, 2020 17:50:31 GMT
Didn't realize this was supposed to be a "debate". Clearly a different backstory being worked with when the OT was made to when the PT was developed. Lucas simply didn't follow his own template. But still, that in itself is interesting when criticising the DT writers for not following the established narrative - even the creator himself didn't follow his own narratives! Of course it is, but you can't tell these idiots that, fanatics have personal bias so they'll invent all kinds of crap to defend the things they love. (See the people who responded to you.) Anyways, just like the other plotholes: the "other" wasn't Leia (rewritten for ROTJ), Anakin was not deified, The Emperor wasn't a swordsman, and Leia's birth mother was still alive (as she spoke of in the scene with Luke).
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 16, 2020 18:59:31 GMT
"Leia" Eric Clapton
What'll you do when you get lonely? And nobody's waiting by your side? You've been running and hiding much too long You know it's just your Rebel pride
Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind
I tried to give you consolation When your Father let you down Like a fool, I fell in love with you You've turned my whole world upside down
Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind
Let's make the best of the situation Before I finally die in pain Please don't say, we'll never find a way And tell me all my love's in vain
Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind
Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind
[ Guitar solo ]
Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind
Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind
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Post by dazz on Feb 17, 2020 1:27:43 GMT
"Leia" Eric Clapton What'll you do when you get lonely? And nobody's waiting by your side? You've been running and hiding much too long You know it's just your Rebel pride Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind I tried to give you consolation When your Father let you down Like a fool, I fell in love with you You've turned my whole world upside down Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind Let's make the best of the situation Before I finally die in pain Please don't say, we'll never find a way And tell me all my love's in vain Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind [ Guitar solo ] Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind Leia Remember images, Leia Remember feelings please, Leia Don't forget I'm beautiful and kind Wait are you just deleting and reposting the same post every day or something? I swear this is the 3rd time in like 2 days I have seen you post this...or am I having force visions of you posting this? did you even post this now or is it all in my head?? so confused...
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 17, 2020 12:56:51 GMT
Funny, I thought the criticism was quite the opposite, namely that Disney Star Wars mindlessly rehashed the originals without creating anything relevant of their own (in narrative and design) and thereby negating and diminishing the previous narrative. Lucas not following his narrative is blatantly clear with every OT film contradicting the previous, especially with the father or sister reveals. But those contradictions and twists at least served to improve the drama and to to develop fresh ideas. The only SW trilogy that is coherently written from beginning to end is the PT, Lucas had considerably matured as visionary story teller and architect of world building. True re TFA being a rehash, not sure about the others though - all three are! But 8 and 9 to a considerably lesser degree than 7. there are countless, Darth. They were making it up as they went. -Like Obi Wan (and Yoda) suddenly becoming pathological liars who pit their apprentice Luke to kill his father by heinously making him believe he actually kills his father's betrayer and murderer. Very Jedi-like indeed - they did not even tell the truth when Luke ran into Vader's obvious trap in Empire. You do not need enemies if having such mentors...
- Like Vader having different personalities and motivations per movie, such as wanting to destroy the emperor and rule as father and son, versus having to "serve" his master and protecting him against Luke's attacks bc the dark side is so strong. - Leia flirting and smooching with Luke (and there is even more kinky stuff in the deleted scenes) despite declaring that she always knew they were siblings is another thing. Shifty eyes cannot replace consistent writing. Nothing in the movies would indicate this in any way. This would make the Jedi seem stupid. Yoda not telling Obi about the their only other significant option against the Empire would be unreasonable from a strategic, personal and tactical perspective. Also, from a story perspective as only Obi was close to Anakin and the kids were twins, they came in pairs, hard to miss one. They are liars and hypocrites (from a certain POV) not stupid.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 17, 2020 16:00:16 GMT
Too many comments to reply to everything but dazz:- I don't really get your argument that Bail Organa knowing about Obi-Wan = Obi-Wan knowing about Leia. However re your side-thoughts that where he was would be "readily available", I don't get that either. Here's how the expanded radio broadcast from '81 told it:- i.e. it was privately known by Bail Organa and passed to Leia. There's no "coincidence" in this version, Leia is sent to get the plans AND Obi-Wan. Again imagine something not too dissimilar to the end of ROTS. Why is it inconceivable that Bail Organa was a trusted figure within the rebellion? There's absolutely no reason to think he wouldn't have been trusted with Obi-Wan's location... @tristan - There's a difference between how you'd like to imagine it played out (by interjecting PT elements) and what actually happens in the OT. As I've said before we literally hear Yoda tell Obi-Wan there is another hope he didn't know about in TESB. Unless you're going to argue he was senile and Yoda was reminding him, he absolutely did not know. I can't really make any further comment on that as it would just be stupid to continue arguing... The shift eyes is fine writing - you can read that the original intention was either that Obi-Wan had killed Anakin or that he was still alive and far away but they were there for a reason. Yes, they changed things and made new stuff up but there's no bad retcon there - it was already set up for a reveal, they just changed the reveal.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 17, 2020 16:22:28 GMT
Didn't realize this was supposed to be a "debate". Clearly a different backstory being worked with when the OT was made to when the PT was developed. Lucas simply didn't follow his own template. But still, that in itself is interesting when criticising the DT writers for not following the established narrative - even the creator himself didn't follow his own narratives! Of course it is, but you can't tell these idiots that, fanatics have personal bias so they'll invent all kinds of crap to defend the things they love. (See the people who responded to you.) Anyways, just like the other plotholes: the "other" wasn't Leia (rewritten for ROTJ), Anakin was not deified, The Emperor wasn't a swordsman, and Leia's birth mother was still alive (as she spoke of in the scene with Luke). Yes but I do find it fascinating how people who didn't necessarily grow up with the OT find it almost impossible to perceive the story purely within the context of the original films. I think there's a difference here between sci-fi nerds who need to connect everything and having the PT view of what the Jedi are in mind when watching the older films. You're right about the "other" going from another hope to another Skywalker between TESB and ROTJ. I'm happy to look on that as further reveals though. Nothing fundamentally contradicted. The closest we get to that is Obi-Wan's lines about Leia being hidden in ROTJ. But it's still written in relatively ambiguous way.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 17, 2020 18:13:41 GMT
So, you finally have accepted the truth of the OT being full of inconsistencies and contradictions. Gooood! it's a straw man. No PT needed. Strictly limited to OT: This interpretation without any evidence is inconclusive. It's just not believable that Yoda never told his last Jedi ally Obi about Leia, given their relentless scheming and limited options. It would just be stupid and bad writing unless properly explained. It wasn't because it never happened. Not in the storyteller's mind nor any other mind but yours. this is called exposition. Typical that characters remind each other of dangling plot points to inform the audience. And later in Jedi: nothing from Obi that he did not know. Quite the opposite, he tells the twin story like being old news [nods] Mm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.it's stupid to argue because you are shifting straw men again: Maybe Obi only needed to be reminded that if Luke fails is not the only option by way of exposition; Obi had just bet all cards on Luke even after he ran away from training, Yoda corrected that. Funny thing is again, all this speaks to inconsistent writing and contradictions: this scene was originally left open as they did not know the resolution. this is not writing, but acting - its not even in the script. Shifting eyes can mean anything and does not prove anything one way or another -especially since nobody knew back than that Vader was to become Luke's father and noble Obi Wan is a pathological liar. nope, false dilemma. Obi when playing the scene just has to tell an ugly tale of the brutal extinction of his Jedi order, and to orphan Luke of his father being betrayed and murdered by Obi's apprentice. It's a set up for the later duel between Obi and Darth.
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senan90
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@senan90
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Post by senan90 on Feb 17, 2020 19:05:23 GMT
Of course it is, but you can't tell these idiots that, fanatics have personal bias so they'll invent all kinds of crap to defend the things they love. (See the people who responded to you.) Anyways, just like the other plotholes: the "other" wasn't Leia (rewritten for ROTJ), Anakin was not deified, The Emperor wasn't a swordsman, and Leia's birth mother was still alive (as she spoke of in the scene with Luke). Yes but I do find it fascinating how people who didn't necessarily grow up with the OT find it almost impossible to perceive the story purely within the context of the original films. I think there's a difference here between sci-fi nerds who need to connect everything and having the PT view of what the Jedi are in mind when watching the older films. You're right about the "other" going from another hope to another Skywalker between TESB and ROTJ. I'm happy to look on that as further reveals though. Nothing fundamentally contradicted. The closest we get to that is Obi-Wan's lines about Leia being hidden in ROTJ. But it's still written in relatively ambiguous way. I think by the end, Lucas put in a lot of fan service for ROTS after all the scorn he received for the first two prequel films, eg. Wookies, Tantive IV, lots of battles. And there's something so off about The Emperor fighting the Jedi in that Lucas did it in some kind of fan appease (in relation to my point about the Emperor hating Jedi artefacts: the lightsaber), I doubt Lucas wanted The Emperor to be like that. I'm sure Lucas is sick of Star Wars and is glad to see the end of it. Yeah, I agree with you that nothing has fundamentally been contradicted, but for the life of me, the way Obi-Wan described Anakin, I just can't see the deity storyline from the prequels linked to the OT. Putting in Christensen as a ghost in the end was the final straw for me.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 17, 2020 19:20:53 GMT
it's a straw man. No PT needed. Strictly limited to OT: This interpretation without any evidence is inconclusive. It's just not believable that Yoda never told his last Jedi ally Obi about Leia, given their relentless scheming and limited options. It would just be stupid and bad writing unless properly explained. Ha ha - Strictly limited to the OT Obi-Wan was Yoda's last Jedi ally was he? No PT needed eh? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about - you're calling something "stupid and bad writing" over something which isn't stated anywhere in the OT, you've just extrapolated that from the PT. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the OT that Obi-Wan was Yoda's last Jedi ally.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 17, 2020 19:31:25 GMT
Yes but I do find it fascinating how people who didn't necessarily grow up with the OT find it almost impossible to perceive the story purely within the context of the original films. I think there's a difference here between sci-fi nerds who need to connect everything and having the PT view of what the Jedi are in mind when watching the older films. You're right about the "other" going from another hope to another Skywalker between TESB and ROTJ. I'm happy to look on that as further reveals though. Nothing fundamentally contradicted. The closest we get to that is Obi-Wan's lines about Leia being hidden in ROTJ. But it's still written in relatively ambiguous way. I think by the end, Lucas put in a lot of fan service for ROTS after all the scorn he received for the first two prequel films, eg. Wookies, Tantive IV, lots of battles. And there's something so off about The Emperor fighting the Jedi in that Lucas did it in some kind of fan appease (in relation to my point about the Emperor hating Jedi artefacts: the lightsaber), I doubt Lucas wanted The Emperor to be like that. I'm sure Lucas is sick of Star Wars and is glad to see the end of it. Yeah, I agree with you that nothing has fundamentally been contradicted, but for the life of me, the way Obi-Wan described Anakin, I just can't see the deity storyline from the prequels linked to the OT. Putting in Christensen as a ghost in the end was the final straw for me. Absolutely agree re the Hayden Christensen ghost. Awful. Have you seen any of these editions:- www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/project-4k77/Was reading about it at the weekend - would really like to see a restored original ROTJ. Taking out the original Anakin force ghost takes something fundemetal away from the end of that film... You're not wrong about the Emperor either - did you ever read the original Star Wars novelisation? It starts of with some interesting paragraphs which actually describes the Emperor as a guy without any real power, buried under the manipulation of bureaucratics / governors. Was very much changed as it went on...
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senan90
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@senan90
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Post by senan90 on Feb 17, 2020 19:47:27 GMT
I think by the end, Lucas put in a lot of fan service for ROTS after all the scorn he received for the first two prequel films, eg. Wookies, Tantive IV, lots of battles. And there's something so off about The Emperor fighting the Jedi in that Lucas did it in some kind of fan appease (in relation to my point about the Emperor hating Jedi artefacts: the lightsaber), I doubt Lucas wanted The Emperor to be like that. I'm sure Lucas is sick of Star Wars and is glad to see the end of it. Yeah, I agree with you that nothing has fundamentally been contradicted, but for the life of me, the way Obi-Wan described Anakin, I just can't see the deity storyline from the prequels linked to the OT. Putting in Christensen as a ghost in the end was the final straw for me. Absolutely agree re the Hayden Christensen ghost. Awful. Have you seen any of these editions:- www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/project-4k77/Was reading about it at the weekend - would really like to see a restored original ROTJ. Taking out the original Anakin force ghost takes something fundemetal away from the end of that film... You're not wrong about the Emperor either - did you ever read the original Star Wars novelisation? It starts of with some interesting paragraphs which actually describes the Emperor as a guy without any real power, buried under the manipulation of bureaucratics / governors. Was very much changed as it went on... I do know that in the original novelisation, Vader is described as "Dark Lord of the Sith". I don't know if the Sith were fully written when the OT was finished. The way I see it in OT is that The Emperor is the embodiment of the Empire. The supreme leader. He has no time for fools who practice primitive religion, eg. "take your Jedi weapon". Another reference to Chairman Mao's hatred for Buddhists i.e "religion is poison" quote. He is a dictator. The Emperor's nature of the force is above the Jedi, so when he uses the electrical bolts in ROTJ, it's as if he as evolved to a point that the Jedi would not have because of the dark side.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 17, 2020 20:03:19 GMT
it's a straw man. No PT needed. Strictly limited to OT: This interpretation without any evidence is inconclusive. It's just not believable that Yoda never told his last Jedi ally Obi about Leia, given their relentless scheming and limited options. It would just be stupid and bad writing unless properly explained. Ha ha - Strictly limited to the OT Obi-Wan was Yoda's last Jedi ally was he? No PT needed eh?This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about - you're calling something "stupid and bad writing" over something which isn't stated anywhere in the OT, you've just extrapolated that from the PT. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the OT that Obi-Wan was Yoda's last Jedi ally. That is exactly what I am talking about. No PT needed, indeed: "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."
" helped the Empire to hunt down and destroy the Jedi...now the Jedi are all but extinct"QED
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 17, 2020 20:13:28 GMT
Ha ha - Strictly limited to the OT Obi-Wan was Yoda's last Jedi ally was he? No PT needed eh?This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about - you're calling something "stupid and bad writing" over something which isn't stated anywhere in the OT, you've just extrapolated that from the PT. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the OT that Obi-Wan was Yoda's last Jedi ally.That is exactly what I am talking about. No PT needed, indeed: "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."
" helped the Empire to hunt down and destroy the Jedi...now the Jedi are all but extinct"QED QED 😂 Why would that possibly make Obi-Wan Yoda's last ally when Leia was hidden?! It was years before. There is NOTHING in the OT to suggest otherwise - you are simply using the end of the PT to create your viewpoint. Just because Obi-Wan and Yoda are the last left by TESB doesn't mean Yoda had to share info with him decades before! Does not compute indeed!
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 17, 2020 20:20:10 GMT
I do know that in the original novelisation, Vader is described as "Dark Lord of the Sith". I don't know if the Sith were fully written when the OT was finished. The way I see it in OT is that The Emperor is the embodiment of the Empire. The supreme leader. He has no time for fools who practice primitive religion, eg. "take your Jedi weapon". Another reference to Chairman Mao's hatred for Buddhists i.e "religion is poison" quote. He is a dictator. The Emperor's nature of the force is above the Jedi, so when he uses the electrical bolts in ROTJ, it's as if he as evolved to a point that the Jedi would not have because of the dark side. Here's an article on that early novelisation:- www.tor.com/2013/01/24/weird-differences-between-the-first-star-wars-movie-and-its-preceding-novelization/It was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster. Like the expanded radio broadcasts it's interesting to see the differences in these early storylines from the films. This came out way before the film's release though, so you wonder if this was Lucas' original intention for Palpatine:- Poor guy - he just wanted to do a good job!
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Post by dazz on Feb 17, 2020 22:01:21 GMT
Too many comments to reply to everything but dazz :- I don't really get your argument that Bail Organa knowing about Obi-Wan = Obi-Wan knowing about Leia. However re your side-thoughts that where he was would be "readily available", I don't get that either. Here's how the expanded radio broadcast from '81 told it:- i.e. it was privately known by Bail Organa and passed to Leia. There's no "coincidence" in this version, Leia is sent to get the plans AND Obi-Wan. Again imagine something not too dissimilar to the end of ROTS. Why is it inconceivable that Bail Organa was a trusted figure within the rebellion? There's absolutely no reason to think he wouldn't have been trusted with Obi-Wan's location... @tristan - There's a difference between how you'd like to imagine it played out (by interjecting PT elements) and what actually happens in the OT. As I've said before we literally hear Yoda tell Obi-Wan there is another hope he didn't know about in TESB. Unless you're going to argue he was senile and Yoda was reminding him, he absolutely did not know. I can't really make any further comment on that as it would just be stupid to continue arguing... Except Obi-Wan is not a member of the Rebellion, he's hiding from the Empire, yet Organa knows the precise co-ordinates to find him? not the last known place he was heard from or anything? and why would they wait till now to call upon him? their mission is to find plans with a fault in the Death Star so they can blow it up, how is Obi-Wan's help so vital now? surely acquiring such intel would be better served by having a Jedi Master in co right? someone who can move objects from a distance, hold off entire squads of troopers single handed, who can force weak minds to aid them and tell them things with ease, right?
Seems there would need to be a serious reason to not call on Obi-Wan in the 19 years he has been in exile given his abilities and cunning, like he's protecting Luke the twin brother of Organa's adopted daughter, and now just happens to be the time to bring him into the fold, which also makes sense as to why Organa would know where he is, he knows Obi-Wan wouldn't have left because Obi-Wan wouldn't have abandoned his mission to keep Luke safe, but if Organa knows this surely Obi-Wan would know about Leia also, which like I said in that scene Obi-Wan reacts when he hears Leia say she has come under attack, even if this is the kid of some old friend we never hear mentioned again really such a reaction doesn't fit, knowing what we do know, that Leia is Vader's daughter her falling into the hands of the Empire or being killed would greatly concern Kenobi, though again he does react to this without hearing who she is, so that maybe more force related if you wanna make sense of it.
But again Obi Wan is a hermit he could be anywhere in theory, Organa is a senator and member of the Aldaran royal family, which makes more sense that said Senator knows the exact location of the hermit yet NO ONE in the empire does despite Kenobi being one of the biggest threats they could face? or that Kenobi and Organa both knew of each others part in taking care of the children?
Also Yoda isn't necessarily informing Obi-Wan he could rather simply be correcting him, I mean in all honesty Luke is atleast somewhat trained in the force and Yoda's time is at an end, what happens if Luke dies and Yoda dies before Leia is ready to begin training, Leia at the end of ROTJ cannot see the force ghosts, only Luke can, this implies to me that communicating with them requires a level of mastery of the force, not just potential, so both are kind of right, Luke is their last hope in a sense, but Leia is a potential hope, but one that is very slim as it would require her meeting Yoda before he dies so she can begin some training so Obi-Wan and he could possibly help her continue her training later as force ghosts, and maybe Yoda can simply tell Leia has potential more so than Obi-Wan, it's not until after he says there is another Leia shows even the slightest glimpse of being force sensitive after all, where as he could have known for a while Luke is by observing him.
Onto another thing the movies do suggest Kenobi is Yoda's only Jedi ally left, in the first movie Kenobi says Vader and the Empire hunted down and destroyed the Jedi, that alongside Han not buying into them at all as well as Empire cronies mocking Vader for his faith suggest the Jedi, Sith & Force in the OT is very much gone with the few remaining pieces being those we see in the movies, there being more is something established by newer canon and such, so you are reading into the OT something that comes from outside of the OT.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 18, 2020 8:02:17 GMT
Except Obi-Wan is not a member of the Rebellion, he's hiding from the Empire, yet Organa knows the precise co-ordinates to find him? not the last known place he was heard from or anything? and why would they wait till now to call upon him? their mission is to find plans with a fault in the Death Star so they can blow it up, how is Obi-Wan's help so vital now? surely acquiring such intel would be better served by having a Jedi Master in co right? someone who can move objects from a distance, hold off entire squads of troopers single handed, who can force weak minds to aid them and tell them things with ease, right? You didn't listen to that audio clip at all did you? Look, I'm not saying it's right or wrong story wise Yoda telling Obi-Wan "there is another" but that's literally what happens - sure you can put whatever spin on it you like if you don't like it but that's purely all you're doing. Obi-Wan, according to what's on screen, doesn't know about Leia pre TESB. And as I told @tristan conflating that Yoda and Obi-Wan are the last Jedi left in the OT era with what happened BEFORE the OT era is another PT goggles mistake. What you said about hunting down the Jedi is correct but that is not the same as the PT's order 66.
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Post by dazz on Feb 18, 2020 8:39:06 GMT
Except Obi-Wan is not a member of the Rebellion, he's hiding from the Empire, yet Organa knows the precise co-ordinates to find him? not the last known place he was heard from or anything? and why would they wait till now to call upon him? their mission is to find plans with a fault in the Death Star so they can blow it up, how is Obi-Wan's help so vital now? surely acquiring such intel would be better served by having a Jedi Master in co right? someone who can move objects from a distance, hold off entire squads of troopers single handed, who can force weak minds to aid them and tell them things with ease, right? You didn't listen to that audio clip at all did you? Look, I'm not saying it's right or wrong story wise Yoda telling Obi-Wan "there is another" but that's literally what happens - sure you can put whatever spin on it you like if you don't like it but that's purely all you're doing. Obi-Wan, according to what's on screen, doesn't know about Leia pre TESB. And as I told @tristan conflating that Yoda and Obi-Wan are the last Jedi left in the OT era with what happened BEFORE the OT era is another PT goggles mistake. What you said about hunting down the Jedi is correct but that is not the same as the PT's order 66. I did all it says is they will need Obi-Wan but not why they need him, again why I ask why now? or is that explained 45 minutes further in or something? bi-Wan has set out the fight why go to him now? how does he even know Obi-Wan is still alive? let alone his precise location?
Also no Oi-Wan in Empire doesn't know their is another hope against the Empire, he's not saying Luke is the last Skywalker but their last hope to defeat Vader and the Emperor, which sadly isn't the case, or ever was really given Han, Chewie an Lando are the 3 who each played vital parts in the success of said mission.
And no it isn't conflating anything with the PT, in A New Hope Obi an tells like Vader hunted down and DESTROYED the Jedi, you do not use the word destroyed to describe someone thinned the herd a little, the only 2 Jedi's live at that time anyone see's are Obi-Wan and Yoda until Luke becomes one himself, if there wee more why is Luke so special in regards to his powers? YOU are contaminating your perspective with the events of the PT, the PT actually leaves it clear remnants of the Jedi scattered through the galaxy warned off by Obi Wan in a last ditch attempt to preserve the order, this is never hinted at in the OT, that's the point of the name of the last film, Return Of The Jedi because Luke has truly become a Jedi hence they have returned, it's the PT, Rebels and other source material that assert more Jedi survived their downfall a Vader's hands, the OT makes it clear that in the confines of those movies that the Jedi are no more, if the weren't again where the hell are the other Jedi? Where is the army of warrior wizard monks when you need them? Why is Luke not guided to a new master when Yoda dies, informed of allies to contact prior to facing Vader? If there are more of them out there why the hell does Yoda and Obi-Wan keep this shit to themselves?
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 18, 2020 9:52:50 GMT
That is exactly what I am talking about. No PT needed, indeed: "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."
" helped the Empire to hunt down and destroy the Jedi...now the Jedi are all but extinct"QED QED 😂 Why would that possibly make Obi-Wan Yoda's last ally when Leia was hidden?! It was years before. There is NOTHING in the OT to suggest otherwise - you are simply using the end of the PT to create your viewpoint. Just because Obi-Wan and Yoda are the last left by TESB doesn't mean Yoda had to share info with him decades before! Does not compute indeed! I am astounded as to your ability to constantly shift the goalposts, from no inner OT contradiction to whether Obi was Yoda's last Jedi-ally in the OT period (which is a no brainer as explicitly stated). Interpretation is the process of construing information reasonably within the context. Thus: - Your interpretation of "there is another" was arguable in the context of Empire. - Your interpretation became nonsensical within the context of Jedi where we learn "the other" was Leia, and Obi Wan knew about the children. - It became blatantly false and debunked in the context of Sith where we see that Obi knew and was involved in the hiding of the children. Therefore: Reasonably speaking, you should have let go of this interpretation as from 1983. Btw, the PT explicitly leaves open the possibility of surviving "stragglers" which is an explicit plot point in Sith.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Feb 19, 2020 8:13:12 GMT
I am astounded as to your ability to constantly shift the goalposts, from no inner OT contradiction to whether Obi was Yoda's last Jedi-ally in the OT period (which is a no brainer as explicitly stated). Shifting goalposts? Here's my original reply to you:- "Don't think there was any contradictions as such in the OT re the father / sister reveals." Absolutely nothing shifted from that. Yes, I said that they changed story elements as the trilogy went on but nothing was contradicted re previous films. These are two completely different things, changing story reveals does not contradict what happened before. "My" interpretations aren't even interpretations, they're simply what happens in the films! e.g. Yoda tells Obi-Wan "there is another" - that's no interpretation! Saying something like "Typical that characters remind each other of dangling plot points to inform the audience" absolutely IS interpretation... As to Obi-Wan in ROTJ he is talking AFTER he was informed by Yoda. And as for the "last ally" thing I think you are being quite deliberately disingenuous there. He tells Obi-Wan once he is his last ally. That does not mean he had to tell him before. It absolutely fits with him revealing that in TESB. "- It became blatantly false and debunked in the context of Sith where we see that Obi knew and was involved in the hiding of the children" 😂 Again, nothing looking at the OT in isolation is "debunked" by what is shown through awful writing in the PT. An absolute intellectual dead-end to even write that. Although, as I've said previously, it is a fascinating mindset to believe a film released nearly 30 years later can debunk an earlier film...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 12:21:30 GMT
Agreed why would Luke want to know about Leia's adoptive mother?? It doesnt make sense for it to be Bail's wife. She also died when Alderaan exploded. Im so confused. How is this even an issue?
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