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Post by Skaathar on Mar 8, 2020 18:11:59 GMT
When he went back in time and stayed with Peggy, I assume he had to make sure he didn't say anything that would change the future too much, otherwise that would split them into a new reality. Could you imagine being married to an international intelligence officer and needing to keep future secrets from her? I mean, look how hard it must have been: youtu.be/hBmj4rs1KrI
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Mar 8, 2020 18:16:40 GMT
When he went back in time and stayed with Peggy, I assume he had to make sure he didn't say anything that would change the future too much, otherwise that would split them into a new reality. Could you imagine being married to an international intelligence officer and needing to keep future secrets from her? I mean, look how hard it must have been: youtu.be/hBmj4rs1KrIIt's already a split reality. The moment in which he materialized in Peggy's time, the timeline splits again.
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Post by dazz on Mar 8, 2020 20:55:36 GMT
When he went back in time and stayed with Peggy, I assume he had to make sure he didn't say anything that would change the future too much, otherwise that would split them into a new reality. Could you imagine being married to an international intelligence officer and needing to keep future secrets from her? I mean, look how hard it must have been: youtu.be/hBmj4rs1KrIIt's already a split reality. The moment in which he materialized in Peggy's time, the timeline splits again. Not if it's a predestined temporal loop, a fixed event in time, it only creates a new timeline when it alters the past events, even slightly, but if it always was what happened then it means it doesn't create a new timeline.
Which also Skaathar if he changes anything in the past it creates a new timeline, now he'd have to keep quiet to prevent creating a new timeline distinctively different from his original one but any change creates a new timeline.
Thing is how do we know this is "our" Steve? maybe this Steve is from another timeline, one where Cap wore his tighty whiteys to face Thanos the first time, but our Steve wore his r/w/b boxer briefs, it's essentially the same timeline but not quite, I mean how do we know? HOW!! DO!! WE!! KNOW!!! Oh the humanity.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Mar 9, 2020 15:31:37 GMT
It's already a split reality. The moment in which he materialized in Peggy's time, the timeline splits again. Not if it's a predestined temporal loop, a fixed event in time,
You can't have BOTH the models of time travel co-existing. It wasn't "fixed" in time at all. That goes against the rules of time travel established for the MCU universe, as simple as that. THE EXACT moment you time traveller appears in the past, no matter what you do, you create a branched reality - by having your only and mere presence in the past. So the Peggy Timeline comes into existence and becomes a standalone branched reality in the moment in which Captain America appears in the past, without even changing anything.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 9, 2020 16:09:25 GMT
Not if it's a predestined temporal loop, a fixed event in time,
You can't have BOTH the models of time travel co-existing. It wasn't "fixed" in time at all. That goes against the rules of time travel established for the MCU universe, as simple as that. THE EXACT moment you time traveller appears in the past, no matter what you do, you create a branched reality - by having your only and mere presence in the past. So the Peggy Timeline comes into existence and becomes a standalone branched reality in the moment in which Captain America appears in the past, without even changing anything. He means that the MCU we have been watching isn't the "original" timeline. The 1st Steve already went back in time and changed things. The temporal loop started because every Steve, after that, went back in time to marry Peggy. So now it's a single, stable, timeline where Steve goes back and changes nothing while another Steve is frozen in ice, helps defeat Thanos, then goes back to marry Peggy and lives his life where he gives Sam the shield.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 9, 2020 16:10:45 GMT
There's also this meme:
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Post by dazz on Mar 9, 2020 16:27:21 GMT
Not if it's a predestined temporal loop, a fixed event in time,
You can't have BOTH the models of time travel co-existing. It wasn't "fixed" in time at all. That goes against the rules of time travel established for the MCU universe, as simple as that. THE EXACT moment you time traveller appears in the past, no matter what you do, you create a branched reality - by having your only and mere presence in the past. So the Peggy Timeline comes into existence and becomes a standalone branched reality in the moment in which Captain America appears in the past, without even changing anything. Wrong mate, it's established you cannot go back into the past to change things, if it is a predestined loop a fixed point it means that by going back you are not changing things, there by not creating a branched reality by doing so, multiverse allows for this, if you go back and alter events to be different from the reality you know you create a new timeline, but if the things you do in the past always happened in your timeline anyway then you aren't changing events and there by not creating a new timeline.
Exactly like ThatGuy said, the MCU we have watched may not be the prime timeline but one of many branched timelines, we just didn't know it until now.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Mar 9, 2020 19:02:19 GMT
You can't have BOTH the models of time travel co-existing. It wasn't "fixed" in time at all. That goes against the rules of time travel established for the MCU universe, as simple as that. THE EXACT moment you time traveller appears in the past, no matter what you do, you create a branched reality - by having your only and mere presence in the past. So the Peggy Timeline comes into existence and becomes a standalone branched reality in the moment in which Captain America appears in the past, without even changing anything. He means that the MCU we have been watching isn't the "original" timeline. The 1st Steve already went back in time and changed things. The temporal loop started because every Steve, after that, went back in time to marry Peggy. So now it's a single, stable, timeline where Steve goes back and changes nothing while another Steve is frozen in ice, helps defeat Thanos, then goes back to marry Peggy and lives his life where he gives Sam the shield. That's not possible. There are no loops, until you think that the MCU universe starting with "IRON MAN 1" is already a branched timeline FROM THE START and Steve was in the past as well. There is no proof for that anyway.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 9, 2020 20:08:40 GMT
He means that the MCU we have been watching isn't the "original" timeline. The 1st Steve already went back in time and changed things. The temporal loop started because every Steve, after that, went back in time to marry Peggy. So now it's a single, stable, timeline where Steve goes back and changes nothing while another Steve is frozen in ice, helps defeat Thanos, then goes back to marry Peggy and lives his life where he gives Sam the shield. That's not possible. There are no loops, until you think that the MCU universe starting with "IRON MAN 1" is already a branched timeline FROM THE START and Steve was in the past as well. There is no proof for that anyway. There is. Steve's picture on Peggy's desk in Endgame. Yes, Iron Man 1 is a branch timeline. But then you can also look at it like everything is the same as the original timeline until you get to Winter Soldier when Steve visits Peggy. Looking back at that scene you can see that, in her dementia, Peggy is back to when Steve traveled back in time to her.
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Post by dazz on Mar 9, 2020 20:28:53 GMT
He means that the MCU we have been watching isn't the "original" timeline. The 1st Steve already went back in time and changed things. The temporal loop started because every Steve, after that, went back in time to marry Peggy. So now it's a single, stable, timeline where Steve goes back and changes nothing while another Steve is frozen in ice, helps defeat Thanos, then goes back to marry Peggy and lives his life where he gives Sam the shield. That's not possible. There are no loops, until you think that the MCU universe starting with "IRON MAN 1" is already a branched timeline FROM THE START and Steve was in the past as well. There is no proof for that anyway. Steve sitting on the bench is the proof, he didn't "jump" into their timeline like he would need to he just is there, implying he has been in the timeline all along, living his life which he just doesn't tell anyone about, which is also why he doesn't tell Bucky or Falcon about Peggy in the end.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Mar 10, 2020 13:26:43 GMT
That's not possible. There are no loops, until you think that the MCU universe starting with "IRON MAN 1" is already a branched timeline FROM THE START and Steve was in the past as well. There is no proof for that anyway. There is. Steve's picture on Peggy's desk in Endgame. Yes, Iron Man 1 is a branch timeline. But then you can also look at it like everything is the same as the original timeline until you get to Winter Soldier when Steve visits Peggy. Looking back at that scene you can see that, in her dementia, Peggy is back to when Steve traveled back in time to her. IF THAT IS THE CASE, I love it.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 10, 2020 18:51:41 GMT
That's not possible. There are no loops, until you think that the MCU universe starting with "IRON MAN 1" is already a branched timeline FROM THE START and Steve was in the past as well. There is no proof for that anyway. There is. Steve's picture on Peggy's desk in Endgame. Yes, Iron Man 1 is a branch timeline. But then you can also look at it like everything is the same as the original timeline until you get to Winter Soldier when Steve visits Peggy. Looking back at that scene you can see that, in her dementia, Peggy is back to when Steve traveled back in time to her. How did Sharon not realize that her aunt is married to Captain America? Furthermore, why didn’t Steve do anything about Hydra?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 10, 2020 21:17:47 GMT
Not if it's a predestined temporal loop, a fixed event in time,
You can't have BOTH the models of time travel co-existing. It wasn't "fixed" in time at all. That goes against the rules of time travel established for the MCU universe, as simple as that. THE EXACT moment you time traveller appears in the past, no matter what you do, you create a branched reality - by having your only and mere presence in the past. That's actually not true. The only rule established was that if the Infinity Stones were removed, that would create a branch reality. Replacing them merged everything back as if the branch reality never existed. Nothing in their rules established that a character's mere presence creates a branched reality.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Mar 10, 2020 22:19:32 GMT
You can't have BOTH the models of time travel co-existing. It wasn't "fixed" in time at all. That goes against the rules of time travel established for the MCU universe, as simple as that. THE EXACT moment you time traveller appears in the past, no matter what you do, you create a branched reality - by having your only and mere presence in the past. That's actually not true. The only rule established was that if the Infinity Stones were removed, that would create a branch reality. Replacing them merged everything back as if the branch reality never existed. Nothing in their rules established that a character's mere presence creates a branched reality. No, that's a common misconception. It's not true. See the Ancient One sequence and listen to her words CAREFULLY. You create a branched reality with time travel, before even removing the stone.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 10, 2020 22:25:48 GMT
That's actually not true. The only rule established was that if the Infinity Stones were removed, that would create a branch reality. Replacing them merged everything back as if the branch reality never existed. Nothing in their rules established that a character's mere presence creates a branched reality. No, that's a common misconception. It's not true. See the Ancient One sequence and listen to her words CAREFULLY. You create a branched reality with time travel, before even removing the stone. Nope. Per the Ancient One's own words: " The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one…not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun." That's not a misconception. She literally says removing the stone is what splits the flow. There's nothing about creating a branched reality just with mere presence.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 10, 2020 22:26:35 GMT
There is. Steve's picture on Peggy's desk in Endgame. Yes, Iron Man 1 is a branch timeline. But then you can also look at it like everything is the same as the original timeline until you get to Winter Soldier when Steve visits Peggy. Looking back at that scene you can see that, in her dementia, Peggy is back to when Steve traveled back in time to her. How did Sharon not realize that her aunt is married to Captain America? Furthermore, why didn’t Steve do anything about Hydra? Because he went under the name Fred. Also, if he changed anything he would have started a new timeline instead of staying in the one he was from. So taking out Hydra was the job of the newly defrosted Steve.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 10, 2020 22:41:06 GMT
How did Sharon not realize that her aunt is married to Captain America? Furthermore, why didn’t Steve do anything about Hydra? Because he went under the name Fred. Also, if he changed anything he would have started a new timeline instead of staying in the one he was from. So taking out Hydra was the job of the newly defrosted Steve. He already started a new timeline by going back and marrying Peggy. That’s how time travel works in the MCU. Once you travel back in time, you create an alternate reality. You’re telling me Steve was willing to alter the timeline by marrying and presumably having kids with Peggy (kids who would not have existed in the original timeline), but he wasn’t willing to stop Hydra from overtaking SHIELD? I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t work as an explanation. Not only is that overly convoluted, but it seems like an excuse to justify why Steve randomly showed up on a bench, instead of teleporting back to the platform as an old man. Anyway, there’s probably not much of a point in arguing about this, since the Russos and the screenwriters have each offered conflicting explanation. The Russos have supported the idea that he married Peggy in an alternate timeline, while the screenwriters have gone with your explanation. I guess the only person who can truly clear things up once and for all is Kevin Feige himself.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 10, 2020 23:04:37 GMT
Because he went under the name Fred. Also, if he changed anything he would have started a new timeline instead of staying in the one he was from. So taking out Hydra was the job of the newly defrosted Steve. He already started a new timeline by going back and marrying Peggy. That’s how time travel works in the MCU. Once you travel back in time, you create an alternate reality. You’re telling me Steve was willing to alter the timeline by marrying and presumably having kids with Peggy (kids who would not have existed in the original timeline), but he wasn’t willing to stop Hydra from overtaking SHIELD? I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t work as an explanation. Not only is that overly convoluted, but it seems like an excuse to justify why Steve randomly showed up on a bench, instead of teleporting back to the platform as an old man. Anyway, there’s probably not much of a point in arguing about this, since the Russos and the screenwriters have each offered conflicting explanation. The Russos have supported the idea that he married Peggy in an alternate timeline, while the screenwriters have gone with your explanation. I guess the only person who can truly clear things up once and for all is Kevin Feige himself. Yes, the 1st Steve did start a new timeline by going back and marrying Peggy. We have no clue how many times this loop went around. And, yes, because if he changed things, the frozen Steve wouldn't go through what he did and go back in time to marry Peggy. The point is for Steve to go through points that would cause him to make the decision to go back in time and be with Peggy. How is that overly convoluted? It follows the rules the movie put forth.
If he showed up on the platform it would have meant that he came from another timeline instead of being from the current one. The point of showing him as an old man was to show that he lived his life there. If they were gonna just have him come back to the pad, they might as well have had young Steve come back then say he was going back to the past. Also, he's not tethered to that other timeline so he wouldn't have been able to get back to his kids.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 10, 2020 23:15:53 GMT
He already started a new timeline by going back and marrying Peggy. That’s how time travel works in the MCU. Once you travel back in time, you create an alternate reality. You’re telling me Steve was willing to alter the timeline by marrying and presumably having kids with Peggy (kids who would not have existed in the original timeline), but he wasn’t willing to stop Hydra from overtaking SHIELD? I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t work as an explanation. Not only is that overly convoluted, but it seems like an excuse to justify why Steve randomly showed up on a bench, instead of teleporting back to the platform as an old man. Anyway, there’s probably not much of a point in arguing about this, since the Russos and the screenwriters have each offered conflicting explanation. The Russos have supported the idea that he married Peggy in an alternate timeline, while the screenwriters have gone with your explanation. I guess the only person who can truly clear things up once and for all is Kevin Feige himself. Yes, the 1st Steve did start a new timeline by going back and marrying Peggy. We have no clue how many times this loop went around. And, yes, because if he changed things, the frozen Steve wouldn't go through what he did and go back in time to marry Peggy. The point is for Steve to go through points that would cause him to make the decision to go back in time and be with Peggy. How is that overly convoluted? It follows the rules the movie put forth.
If he showed up on the platform it would have meant that he came from another timeline instead of being from the current one. The point of showing him as an old man was to show that he lived his life there. If they were gonna just have him come back to the pad, they might as well have had young Steve come back then say he was going back to the past. Also, he's not tethered to that other timeline so he wouldn't have been able to get back to his kids.
Are you kidding? That’s extremely convoluted. Why would he create an endless loop like that? What would be the point of that? It’s much easier to just say that he lived out his life with Peggy in an alternate timeline, then came back to the prime timeline after she died. Why do we need to throw in time paradoxes and self-fulfilling loops? What about the situation with Bucky? Steve was okay with just letting his best friend be brainwashed into killing Tony’s parents? That just makes Steve sound like a selfish asshole.
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Post by dazz on Mar 11, 2020 2:26:13 GMT
Yes, the 1st Steve did start a new timeline by going back and marrying Peggy. We have no clue how many times this loop went around. And, yes, because if he changed things, the frozen Steve wouldn't go through what he did and go back in time to marry Peggy. The point is for Steve to go through points that would cause him to make the decision to go back in time and be with Peggy. How is that overly convoluted? It follows the rules the movie put forth.
If he showed up on the platform it would have meant that he came from another timeline instead of being from the current one. The point of showing him as an old man was to show that he lived his life there. If they were gonna just have him come back to the pad, they might as well have had young Steve come back then say he was going back to the past. Also, he's not tethered to that other timeline so he wouldn't have been able to get back to his kids.
What about the situation with Bucky? Steve was okay with just letting his best friend be brainwashed into killing Tony’s parents? That just makes Steve sound like a selfish asshole. Actually it doesn't, Steve know the end result from 2023 atleast that happens if he allows Bucky to be brainwashed and kept on ice, it prevents Thanos wiping out half the universe permanently, he has no clue how things unfold if he messes with major events, like the lives of those who fought Thanos, it's a moral quandary to save trillions Steve must let his best friend become The Winter Soldier, also Steve doesn't for sure know when or what could alter time and how, he doesn't know events unfold the same way he knows they did in "his" timeline, for all he knows things changed and the intel he knows is no longer good and trying to act will only cause greater problems, maybe even get Bucky killed.
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