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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 11, 2020 16:59:28 GMT
I wasn't meaning academic when I mentioned those guys. I meant naturally gifted. I think Cyclops should be a good tactician, but still well below Captain America. Cap should be his senior when it comes to leading in a battle. And I think the dynamic would/should have been that Cyclops knows this and hates it. Ok... but why? Why would you want him to be not as good a tactician as his comic counterpart is? Why would you prefer to downgrade him when one of the primary attributes that makes him a good leader is his mastery of tactics and strategy? Still not saying that. I'm saying he should be good, but he shouldn't be up there with the best. I don't think the X-men should be that. Like I said before, he should be the one that would pull a win out of a fight. For the most part, the X-men are the type that would go into a fight guns blazing then start a strategy when they measure up whoever they are fighting. Even when it's someone they've fought before. Also, I really don't think the X-men should be a vet team. They should be kinda new and the only students at the school like in First Class. That's probably where I'm seeing Cyclops differently from you.
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Post by dazz on Mar 11, 2020 20:19:32 GMT
Ok... but why? Why would you want him to be not as good a tactician as his comic counterpart is? Why would you prefer to downgrade him when one of the primary attributes that makes him a good leader is his mastery of tactics and strategy? Still not saying that. I'm saying he should be good, but he shouldn't be up there with the best. I don't think the X-men should be that. Like I said before, he should be the one that would pull a win out of a fight. For the most part, the X-men are the type that would go into a fight guns blazing then start a strategy when they measure up whoever they are fighting. Even when it's someone they've fought before. Also, I really don't think the X-men should be a vet team. They should be kinda new and the only students at the school like in First Class. That's probably where I'm seeing Cyclops differently from you. So more a natural tactician that is rough around the edges, great instincts but has a lot to learn still? sound about right for how they should likely need to be brought into the MCU also, as a 20 year vet Cyclops coming out of nowhere would be odd same as a fully formed and polished group, they need to be young and fresh wanting to find their place in the world as people and as a species at this point, good thing about FC was it was just the opening chapter in a book they never finished, they skipped to a new book with DOFP and with Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, Marvel has a chance to tell the story of the early days of mutant kind as a whole rather than bouncing around or coming in mid stream.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 11, 2020 20:57:29 GMT
Still not saying that. I'm saying he should be good, but he shouldn't be up there with the best. I don't think the X-men should be that. Like I said before, he should be the one that would pull a win out of a fight. For the most part, the X-men are the type that would go into a fight guns blazing then start a strategy when they measure up whoever they are fighting. Even when it's someone they've fought before. Also, I really don't think the X-men should be a vet team. They should be kinda new and the only students at the school like in First Class. That's probably where I'm seeing Cyclops differently from you. So more a natural tactician that is rough around the edges, great instincts but has a lot to learn still? sound about right for how they should likely need to be brought into the MCU also, as a 20 year vet Cyclops coming out of nowhere would be odd same as a fully formed and polished group, they need to be young and fresh wanting to find their place in the world as people and as a species at this point, good thing about FC was it was just the opening chapter in a book they never finished, they skipped to a new book with DOFP and with Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, Marvel has a chance to tell the story of the early days of mutant kind as a whole rather than bouncing around or coming in mid stream. And if mutants are a thing in the MCU already, they can say that Xavier took note of what the Avengers did in Endgame and decided to try his hand at that for mutants. Create a team of mutants in kinda flashy uniforms to be the good guys. Which was what he did in the comics when he created the X-men.
I would much rather have that than either a fully formed X-men that are at AoU level Avengers or older X-men that are still rookies like in X-men (2000). And, yes, the movies starting with FC felt like putting novels in order and randomly choosing one that takes place after the previous one.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 11, 2020 21:59:13 GMT
So more a natural tactician that is rough around the edges, great instincts but has a lot to learn still? sound about right for how they should likely need to be brought into the MCU also, as a 20 year vet Cyclops coming out of nowhere would be odd same as a fully formed and polished group, they need to be young and fresh wanting to find their place in the world as people and as a species at this point, good thing about FC was it was just the opening chapter in a book they never finished, they skipped to a new book with DOFP and with Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, Marvel has a chance to tell the story of the early days of mutant kind as a whole rather than bouncing around or coming in mid stream. And if mutants are a thing in the MCU already, they can say that Xavier took note of what the Avengers did in Endgame and decided to try his hand at that for mutants. Create a team of mutants in kinda flashy uniforms to be the good guys. Which was what he did in the comics when he created the X-men.
I would much rather have that than either a fully formed X-men that are at AoU level Avengers or older X-men that are still rookies like in X-men (2000). And, yes, the movies starting with FC felt like putting novels in order and randomly choosing one that takes place after the previous one. If we're talking about a very young team of X-men, not yet stabilized and just starting out, then yes... obviously everyone should be just honing in their talents. That means Beast and Xavier wouldn't be geniuses yet either. Wolverine would not be as dependable yet. Jean would still faint every now and then. Etc. But if it was already an established team like how they were portrayed in X1, then I see no reason why you'd want to specifically nerf Cyclops of a skill that his comic counterpart has. Genius tactician doesn't mean that you win every encounter after all.
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Post by dazz on Mar 12, 2020 2:11:44 GMT
And if mutants are a thing in the MCU already, they can say that Xavier took note of what the Avengers did in Endgame and decided to try his hand at that for mutants. Create a team of mutants in kinda flashy uniforms to be the good guys. Which was what he did in the comics when he created the X-men.
I would much rather have that than either a fully formed X-men that are at AoU level Avengers or older X-men that are still rookies like in X-men (2000). And, yes, the movies starting with FC felt like putting novels in order and randomly choosing one that takes place after the previous one. If we're talking about a very young team of X-men, not yet stabilized and just starting out, then yes... obviously everyone should be just honing in their talents. That means Beast and Xavier wouldn't be geniuses yet either. Wolverine would not be as dependable yet. Jean would still faint every now and then. Etc. But if it was already an established team like how they were portrayed in X1, then I see no reason why you'd want to specifically nerf Cyclops of a skill that his comic counterpart has. Genius tactician doesn't mean that you win every encounter after all. I think that's the thing an established team doesn't make sense in the MCU, unless they do a Crisis type event and merge worlds or something, they could age up the characters a little, or not because by the time we get a new X-Men movie we should be 3-4 years down the road from Endgame so the likes of Cyclops and the team were amongst the first group of mass mutant emergences in their teens they would be in their early 20's by the time of the movie, Xavier & Magneto could be older, the rare pre-snap mutants who went undetected.
I think a young team is the way to go, one problem I think Cyclops suffered from in the movies is his character came in set from day one, he didn't evolve across the movies, everyone else did, Logan was so interesting because of this, he went from loner to team member to leader across those first 3 films, Jean's power growth and self destruction was also interesting, Storm even had a story across the films, Scott not so much.
So if they bring the team in as youngsters you can see the journey Scott goes through as a character, not just how he becomes their leader but why he does, why the team matters so much to him, why his and Jean's relationship matters. because again we didn't get that, even in the FC series, they give us starting point and end point cutting out the interesting middle portion which makes you care about the character and his relationships, I mean seeing the relationship between Xavier & Logan over 4 separate films is what makes the relationship in Logan work so much, and ultimately I would like to see Scott grow into the leader he is meant to be and not just plop out ready made, he should show the potential to be that man but not quite be there yet imo.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 12, 2020 21:47:32 GMT
And if mutants are a thing in the MCU already, they can say that Xavier took note of what the Avengers did in Endgame and decided to try his hand at that for mutants. Create a team of mutants in kinda flashy uniforms to be the good guys. Which was what he did in the comics when he created the X-men.
I would much rather have that than either a fully formed X-men that are at AoU level Avengers or older X-men that are still rookies like in X-men (2000). And, yes, the movies starting with FC felt like putting novels in order and randomly choosing one that takes place after the previous one. If we're talking about a very young team of X-men, not yet stabilized and just starting out, then yes... obviously everyone should be just honing in their talents. That means Beast and Xavier wouldn't be geniuses yet either. Wolverine would not be as dependable yet. Jean would still faint every now and then. Etc. But if it was already an established team like how they were portrayed in X1, then I see no reason why you'd want to specifically nerf Cyclops of a skill that his comic counterpart has. Genius tactician doesn't mean that you win every encounter after all. Isn't Beast just a genius overall?
The X-men in X1 were veteran rookies. lol They were adult versions of the X-men from when they 1st started.
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thenolan
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Post by thenolan on Mar 13, 2020 7:38:29 GMT
So more a natural tactician that is rough around the edges, great instincts but has a lot to learn still? sound about right for how they should likely need to be brought into the MCU also, as a 20 year vet Cyclops coming out of nowhere would be odd same as a fully formed and polished group, they need to be young and fresh wanting to find their place in the world as people and as a species at this point, good thing about FC was it was just the opening chapter in a book they never finished, they skipped to a new book with DOFP and with Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, Marvel has a chance to tell the story of the early days of mutant kind as a whole rather than bouncing around or coming in mid stream. And if mutants are a thing in the MCU already, they can say that Xavier took note of what the Avengers did in Endgame and decided to try his hand at that for mutants. Create a team of mutants in kinda flashy uniforms to be the good guys. Which was what he did in the comics when he created the X-men.
I would much rather have that than either a fully formed X-men that are at AoU level Avengers or older X-men that are still rookies like in X-men (2000). And, yes, the movies starting with FC felt like putting novels in order and randomly choosing one that takes place after the previous one. This sounds very childish and very disgraceful to superhero story telling. after movies like Logan and X1, How much do you want the fox xmen movies to bury mcu x-men. 10 ft deep is too much. Endgame and AOU are silly kids movies. Fat thor is still laughed at. Xavier trying to copy that will be an insult to Patrick Stewart. Wasnt AOU Avengers a comedy? we are about to see mutants in asylum dealing with their mutations. Just how childish is MCU xmen going to be?
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Post by bud47 on Mar 13, 2020 14:29:49 GMT
If we're talking about a very young team of X-men, not yet stabilized and just starting out, then yes... obviously everyone should be just honing in their talents. That means Beast and Xavier wouldn't be geniuses yet either. Wolverine would not be as dependable yet. Jean would still faint every now and then. Etc. But if it was already an established team like how they were portrayed in X1, then I see no reason why you'd want to specifically nerf Cyclops of a skill that his comic counterpart has. Genius tactician doesn't mean that you win every encounter after all. Isn't Beast just a genius overall?
The X-men in X1 were veteran rookies. lol They were adult versions of the X-men from when they 1st started.
I always thought it seemed strange in the first X-Men film they implied that they were already an established and experienced team with a history, yet for some reason it still came off as if it were their very first mission. I always attributed Beast's intellect as part of his natural abilities.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 13, 2020 15:14:50 GMT
If we're talking about a very young team of X-men, not yet stabilized and just starting out, then yes... obviously everyone should be just honing in their talents. That means Beast and Xavier wouldn't be geniuses yet either. Wolverine would not be as dependable yet. Jean would still faint every now and then. Etc. But if it was already an established team like how they were portrayed in X1, then I see no reason why you'd want to specifically nerf Cyclops of a skill that his comic counterpart has. Genius tactician doesn't mean that you win every encounter after all. Isn't Beast just a genius overall?
The X-men in X1 were veteran rookies. lol They were adult versions of the X-men from when they 1st started.
Overall? No. He's a genius with the sciences and robotics but he's not as good an engineer as Stark nor as good a physicist as Reed and Pym nor as good with tactics and strategy as any of the Marvel team leaders like Cap. But his genius is as much a natural part of his abilities as being a master tactician is for Cyclops.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 13, 2020 16:19:12 GMT
Isn't Beast just a genius overall?
The X-men in X1 were veteran rookies. lol They were adult versions of the X-men from when they 1st started.
I always thought it seemed strange in the first X-Men film they implied that they were already an established and experienced team with a history, yet for some reason it still came off as if it were their very first mission. I always attributed Beast's intellect as part of his natural abilities. It's because they, for some reason, wanted the current comics X-men (who was still younger than they were depicted in the movie) and the X-men from X-men vol 1 #1 in one. That Jean Grey should be post Phoenix. They all act like they never went up against the Brotherhood even though they act like they tangled with them a lot.
I see Beast like a mix of Stark and Professor Hulk (MCU). Thinking about it, I can see Cyclops as someone that looks up to Captain America as that leader. But, at the same time (like I said before), one that doesn't like getting shown up as the leader. Had to add that bit in because the idea of Cyclops acting to Captain America like how Peter acts toward Stark had me dying.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 13, 2020 16:23:34 GMT
Isn't Beast just a genius overall?
The X-men in X1 were veteran rookies. lol They were adult versions of the X-men from when they 1st started.
Overall? No. He's a genius with the sciences and robotics but he's not as good an engineer as Stark nor as good a physicist as Reed and Pym nor as good with tactics and strategy as any of the Marvel team leaders like Cap. But his genius is as much a natural part of his abilities as being a master tactician is for Cyclops. I worded that wrong. I meant naturally. Like it's suppose to be that he's this super smart guy that looks like an ape-man. That his smarts has nothing to do with him being a mutant.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 13, 2020 18:52:16 GMT
Overall? No. He's a genius with the sciences and robotics but he's not as good an engineer as Stark nor as good a physicist as Reed and Pym nor as good with tactics and strategy as any of the Marvel team leaders like Cap. But his genius is as much a natural part of his abilities as being a master tactician is for Cyclops. I worded that wrong. I meant naturally. Like it's suppose to be that he's this super smart guy that looks like an ape-man. That his smarts has nothing to do with him being a mutant.
Yes, it's a natural ability though obviously it's also something that he can improve and enhance (as you see him researching multiple times). But like I said, it's the same thing with Cyclops' tactical genius. It's a natural talent for him which he also improves. So if we're going with the idea that the X-Men team is a young, rough team with Cyclops' tactical genius still developing, then it also follows that Beast's genius is also still developing.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 13, 2020 22:25:05 GMT
I worded that wrong. I meant naturally. Like it's suppose to be that he's this super smart guy that looks like an ape-man. That his smarts has nothing to do with him being a mutant.
Yes, it's a natural ability though obviously it's also something that he can improve and enhance (as you see him researching multiple times). But like I said, it's the same thing with Cyclops' tactical genius. It's a natural talent for him which he also improves. So if we're going with the idea that the X-Men team is a young, rough team with Cyclops' tactical genius still developing, then it also follows that Beast's genius is also still developing. That's one of the reasons I equated him to Stark. You can see his growth through the suits and tech he makes and not really him studying something. Only time you've seen him doing anything about studying is when he said he learned a branch of science in Avengers. With Cyclops, his studying should be a scene in the Danger Room in at least the first movie. Something that tells you that this character grows through out the movies. Because he is training. If you just have him winning (at least) the end fights then it's just winning the end of the movie fights. Also, screw building the Danger Room out over time. We already have BARF, let's go straight out holodeck from the beginning.
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thenolan
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Post by thenolan on Mar 14, 2020 9:45:52 GMT
Isn't Beast just a genius overall?
The X-men in X1 were veteran rookies. lol They were adult versions of the X-men from when they 1st started.
I always thought it seemed strange in the first X-Men film they implied that they were already an established and experienced team with a history, yet for some reason it still came off as if it were their very first mission. I always attributed Beast's intellect as part of his natural abilities. it didn't come out that way though. that they were on their first mission. Cyclops broke it down on how the plan was going to work. you could tell he was experienced. it was wolverine that look odd as it was his first time. anyway, you dont want the nonsense you got with age of ultron.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 14, 2020 15:21:18 GMT
I always thought it seemed strange in the first X-Men film they implied that they were already an established and experienced team with a history, yet for some reason it still came off as if it were their very first mission. I always attributed Beast's intellect as part of his natural abilities. it didn't come out that way though. that they were on their first mission. Cyclops broke it down on how the plan was going to work. you could tell he was experienced. it was wolverine that look odd as it was his first time. anyway, you dont want the nonsense you got with age of ultron. Age of Ultron is not the best MCU movie but it's still better than a good number of the Fox X-Men movies.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 14, 2020 16:14:42 GMT
it didn't come out that way though. that they were on their first mission. Cyclops broke it down on how the plan was going to work. you could tell he was experienced. it was wolverine that look odd as it was his first time. anyway, you dont want the nonsense you got with age of ultron. Age of Ultron is not the best MCU movie but it's still better than a good number of the Fox X-Men movies. I just did a rewatch of all the movies (except the Spider-mans) and found these movies are better when you have future knowledge. How they built on the small things.
And about Cyclops's plan. Didn't he just say they were going to fly in to the Statue of Liberty and said how they were going to do it? He didn't really say what they were going to do when they got there. He just threw out obvious things when they got there. It was more like a chain of command thing. Storm should know to put up a fog from their "briefing", but they needed him to be useful and tell her to do it. Then you have him ordering Storm to fry Magneto, then be told he's stupid. Yeah, that Cyclops was really a person in charge with nothing behind it. Like "I'm Xavier's first student so I'm in charge" kind of thing.
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Post by summers8 on Mar 14, 2020 16:26:08 GMT
Triva about Kevin Feige. he was a part of xmen 1, apparently when Singer was saying the movie should be about story and did not need to fulfil the stereotypes of comic books, Feige was crying that wolverine needed to have purple hair and they need to have costumes. Insisiting story did not matter. Fast forward 20 years later, look where Feige has brought comic books film. Meanwhile X-Men 1 has stood the test of time as a vintage classic comic film.
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Post by summers8 on Mar 14, 2020 16:27:27 GMT
Age of Ultron is not the best MCU movie but it's still better than a good number of the Fox X-Men movies. I just did a rewatch of all the movies (except the Spider-mans) and found these movies are better when you have future knowledge. How they built on the small things.
And about Cyclops's plan. Didn't he just say they were going to fly in to the Statue of Liberty and said how they were going to do it? He didn't really say what they were going to do when they got there. He just threw out obvious things when they got there. It was more like a chain of command thing. Storm should know to put up a fog from their "briefing", but they needed him to be useful and tell her to do it. Then you have him ordering Storm to fry Magneto, then be told he's stupid. Yeah, that Cyclops was really a person in charge with nothing behind it. Like "I'm Xavier's first student so I'm in charge" kind of thing.
This is a lie bud47, but we know how much you love to make up your own story.lol
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Post by summers8 on Mar 14, 2020 16:29:54 GMT
And if mutants are a thing in the MCU already, they can say that Xavier took note of what the Avengers did in Endgame and decided to try his hand at that for mutants. Create a team of mutants in kinda flashy uniforms to be the good guys. Which was what he did in the comics when he created the X-men.
I would much rather have that than either a fully formed X-men that are at AoU level Avengers or older X-men that are still rookies like in X-men (2000). And, yes, the movies starting with FC felt like putting novels in order and randomly choosing one that takes place after the previous one. This sounds very childish and very disgraceful to superhero story telling. after movies like Logan and X1, How much do you want the fox xmen movies to bury mcu x-men. 10 ft deep is too much. Endgame and AOU are silly kids movies. Fat thor is still laughed at. Xavier trying to copy that will be an insult to Patrick Stewart. Wasnt AOU Avengers a comedy? we are about to see mutants in asylum dealing with their mutations. Just how childish is MCU xmen going to be? AOU was not for kids, it was for a brainless masses. people need to stop disrespecting kids. many Kids like comic films of high IQ. On the former imdb boards, we used to call Ultron, Loltron.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 14, 2020 16:50:40 GMT
Triva about Kevin Feige. he was a part of xmen 1, apparently when Singer was saying the movie should be about story and did not need to fulfil the stereotypes of comic books, Feige was crying that wolverine needed to have purple hair and they need to have costumes. Insisiting story did not matter. Fast forward 20 years later, look where Feige has brought comic books film. Meanwhile X-Men 1 has stood the test of time as a vintage classic comic film. Please provide your source and a direct quote of Feige saying Logan should have purple hair.
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