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Post by bluerisk on Mar 31, 2020 14:38:19 GMT
I'm still trying to get used to it being in the real world. Not sure how I feel about that. I will say that part of it has made Delores interesting again. She was great in season 1 and spent all of season 2 just walking around killing people. The first half of season 2 suffered greatly. It was just her walking around shooting people. I think she even betrayed her own allies. No character development. Season 2 finished off strong though imo. I wonder if anyone will ever call out Delores' hypocrisy? She uses "people" all the time. Would be interesting to see her get challenged on that. I want to know who the other hosts are she took from the park. Speaking of which, I think Hale will turn on Delores. It was great to see Maeve again, but I was a little put off by her whole not caring about humans statement. Between Lee and the two tech dudes, I thought it was established she was ok with some people? Not a fan of not showing William yet.
The music in last night's episode was so loud I had to turn on closed captioning.
They called Dolores hypocrisy in the second season already. When she was talking about freedom while pretty much taking the freedom away from Teddy and being against the choice that the hosts made of going to the Valley Beyond. I'm actually more curious to see what host is in Hale's body. I've seen a theory that Wyatt persona in is the body of Dolores while the Dolores "farmer's daughter" is in Hale body. There are a few problems with this theory so I guess we'll have to see it if it's true. Another thing that caught up my attention and it does sound like a plot hole is that they seem to imply that Dolores made a Hale host when she was in the house that Arnold built. But in season 2, Dolores escaped Westworld within a Hale host. So there was no need of building a new Charlotte Hale body. Yeah I was hoping to see Ed Harris in this episode. Dolores said to Hale that she needed to visit an old friend. I get the feeling she was talking about William. Anyway, like the previous seasons we'll have to wait for the finale to see how everthing fits. She couldn't do what she is currently doing, if she had to run Delos. And in case of Teddy she changed her mind and let him go. That was the last things she did in the forge before she changed the coordinates. Meave and her daughter are like Michael and Walt in Lost - useless, while Dolores is really trying to change the world.
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Post by Winter_King on Mar 31, 2020 14:44:50 GMT
The super AI isn't in charge of everything. Tell that to Caleb, and any other human whose live is programmed by this AI. Marriage no recommended, children not approved... Maybe realizing that humans and machines (hosts) are trapped alike by the elite is the next step in Dolores' evolution, and her plan is no longer to destroy humanity. Yes. But the AI doesn't prevent crime. It's existence has no bearing on the ability of Caleb robbing an ATM.
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Post by bluerisk on Mar 31, 2020 19:29:08 GMT
Tell that to Caleb, and any other human whose live is programmed by this AI. Marriage no recommended, children not approved... Maybe realizing that humans and machines (hosts) are trapped alike by the elite is the next step in Dolores' evolution, and her plan is no longer to destroy humanity. Yes. But the AI doesn't prevent crime. It's existence has no bearing on the ability of Caleb robbing an ATM. Or it doesn't care e.g. accepted crime as part of the overall benefit for the system. The resources and limitations (in freedom, creativity etc. pp.) needed to prevent any crime are in no relation to the overall benefits. I also criticized that it was that easy, even if it was explained with this device. But that this device could be designed, produced and distributed questions the effectiveness of this system, which is otherwise display as next to infallible.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 31, 2020 22:45:19 GMT
I'm still trying to get used to it being in the real world. Not sure how I feel about that. I will say that part of it has made Delores interesting again. She was great in season 1 and spent all of season 2 just walking around killing people. The first half of season 2 suffered greatly. It was just her walking around shooting people. I think she even betrayed her own allies. No character development. Season 2 finished off strong though imo. I wonder if anyone will ever call out Delores' hypocrisy? She uses "people" all the time. Would be interesting to see her get challenged on that. I want to know who the other hosts are she took from the park. Speaking of which, I think Hale will turn on Delores. It was great to see Maeve again, but I was a little put off by her whole not caring about humans statement. Between Lee and the two tech dudes, I thought it was established she was ok with some people? Not a fan of not showing William yet.
The music in last night's episode was so loud I had to turn on closed captioning.
They called Dolores hypocrisy in the second season already. When she was talking about freedom while pretty much taking the freedom away from Teddy and being against the choice that the hosts made of going to the Valley Beyond. I'm actually more curious to see what host is in Hale's body. I've seen a theory that Wyatt persona in is the body of Dolores while the Dolores "farmer's daughter" is in Hale body. There are a few problems with this theory so I guess we'll have to see it if it's true. Another thing that caught up my attention and it does sound like a plot hole is that they seem to imply that Dolores made a Hale host when she was in the house that Arnold built. But in season 2, Dolores escaped Westworld within a Hale host. So there was no need of building a new Charlotte Hale body. Yeah I was hoping to see Ed Harris in this episode. Dolores said to Hale that she needed to visit an old friend. I get the feeling she was talking about William. Anyway, like the previous seasons we'll have to wait for the finale to see how everthing fits. I don't mean like a one off, "You're a hypocrite." There needs to be some exploration of it. I do think her relationship with Caleb could play into that from the other direction. She lumps all humans together, but then meets one she likes, so she's going to get thrown for a moral loop.
I want to know who they all are, but I meant Hale. She's obviously the most important one. I still think she's going to turn on Delores. She's falling for Hale's kid. Turning "human", if you will. She's not going to let Delores murder people like that; at least that's my prediction. Showing Hale's body being built in Delore's hideout was definitely a plot hole.
I hope not. Not crazy about that theory. Too "It's ok to forgive Vader and Kylo Ren, because they aren't Anakin or Ben." Delores made her choice. She was raped and tortured and I pitied her, but the second she punishes everyone for what people at the park did to her, I'm out on her.
I'm dying to see MIB, because he's an interesting character. He's an awful person inside the park, but really hasn't done bad in the real world. Hell, one of the last two episodes highlighted how charitable he was. Ford is probably a worse person. He's a mass murderer via his creations.
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Post by bluerisk on Apr 1, 2020 15:47:24 GMT
They called Dolores hypocrisy in the second season already. When she was talking about freedom while pretty much taking the freedom away from Teddy and being against the choice that the hosts made of going to the Valley Beyond. I'm actually more curious to see what host is in Hale's body. I've seen a theory that Wyatt persona in is the body of Dolores while the Dolores "farmer's daughter" is in Hale body. There are a few problems with this theory so I guess we'll have to see it if it's true. Another thing that caught up my attention and it does sound like a plot hole is that they seem to imply that Dolores made a Hale host when she was in the house that Arnold built. But in season 2, Dolores escaped Westworld within a Hale host. So there was no need of building a new Charlotte Hale body. Yeah I was hoping to see Ed Harris in this episode. Dolores said to Hale that she needed to visit an old friend. I get the feeling she was talking about William. Anyway, like the previous seasons we'll have to wait for the finale to see how everthing fits. I don't mean like a one off, "You're a hypocrite." There needs to be some exploration of it. I do think her relationship with Caleb could play into that from the other direction. She lumps all humans together, but then meets one she likes, so she's going to get thrown for a moral loop.
I want to know who they all are, but I meant Hale. She's obviously the most important one. I still think she's going to turn on Delores. She's falling for Hale's kid. Turning "human", if you will. She's not going to let Delores murder people like that; at least that's my prediction. Showing Hale's body being built in Delore's hideout was definitely a plot hole.
I hope not. Not crazy about that theory. Too "It's ok to forgive Vader and Kylo Ren, because they aren't Anakin or Ben." Delores made her choice. She was raped and tortured and I pitied her, but the second she punishes everyone for what people at the park did to her, I'm out on her.
I'm dying to see MIB, because he's an interesting character. He's an awful person inside the park, but really hasn't done bad in the real world. Hell, one of the last two episodes highlighted how charitable he was. Ford is probably a worse person. He's a mass murderer via his creations.
One point that was made (among other in case of Teddy) is that hosts can changed their mind - unlike humans. And Caleb, and more so his situation (and that of any other regular human - not members of the elite like Serac) is not that far away from that of the hosts in Westworld - including abuse in one way or the other. Instead of wiping out humanity, she really means a revolution in a kind of Spartacus (who was also hailed and supported by many regular Roman citizens who barely had a better live then slaves). If the public learns (via the media) how much their lives are controlled, how much they are denied of their dreams, of their freedoms and of their hopes, then they might revolt against the system. PS: And those people Dolores killed, in the park or outside, were the same like the ones who sent out the men who killed two innocent medics. That kind of people. You seem to overlook this.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 1, 2020 22:50:01 GMT
I don't mean like a one off, "You're a hypocrite." There needs to be some exploration of it. I do think her relationship with Caleb could play into that from the other direction. She lumps all humans together, but then meets one she likes, so she's going to get thrown for a moral loop.
I want to know who they all are, but I meant Hale. She's obviously the most important one. I still think she's going to turn on Delores. She's falling for Hale's kid. Turning "human", if you will. She's not going to let Delores murder people like that; at least that's my prediction. Showing Hale's body being built in Delore's hideout was definitely a plot hole.
I hope not. Not crazy about that theory. Too "It's ok to forgive Vader and Kylo Ren, because they aren't Anakin or Ben." Delores made her choice. She was raped and tortured and I pitied her, but the second she punishes everyone for what people at the park did to her, I'm out on her.
I'm dying to see MIB, because he's an interesting character. He's an awful person inside the park, but really hasn't done bad in the real world. Hell, one of the last two episodes highlighted how charitable he was. Ford is probably a worse person. He's a mass murderer via his creations.
One point that was made (among other in case of Teddy) is that hosts can changed their mind - unlike humans. And Caleb, and more so his situation (and that of any other regular human - not members of the elite like Serac) is not that far away from that of the hosts in Westworld - including abuse in one way or the other. Instead of wiping out humanity, she really means a revolution in a kind of Spartacus (who was also hailed and supported by many regular Roman citizens who barely had a better live then slaves). If the public learns (via the media) how much their lives are controlled, how much they are denied of their dreams, of their freedoms and of their hopes, then they might revolt against the system. PS: And those people Dolores killed, in the park or outside, were the same like the ones who sent out the men who killed two innocent medics. That kind of people. You seem to overlook this. There is absolutely no evidence she's "only killing bad people". Having an office job (the board members) isn't a crime. Hell, being a security guard isn't a crime either. Not everyone at Westworld or Delos is a murderer or privy to the hidden agenda of collecting guest data. This guy didn't hurt anyone, for example. Delores lobotomized the love of her life, for Christ's sake, you think she hasn't killed innocents?
Humans change their minds all the time. Not sure what that comment is supposed to mean.
I don't doubt humanity wold revolt against Serac, his company, and Delos, but their motives would be different from Delores'. Delores just wants to murder humanity. I can see her using people as pawns though. Riling them up with the info about stealing data, making them think it's simply about bringing down the system.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 6, 2020 3:01:53 GMT
I don't know if it was this episode particularly or the season is coming together as a whole, but I really liked this one. It felt a lot like The Matrix, which I was digging.
That fight between Delores and Stubbs was a thing of beauty. Great choreography with some fantastic music to boot.
I was a little annoyed we didn't get much of an explanation for how William "survived", only to see him put into a mental institution. I still say he's not actually that bad a guy. Not sure why the show is so dead set on portraying him as that. He was playing out some sick fantasies in the park, but that was no different than anyone else, and nobody knew the hosts were more than empty shells.
Ford is actually a much worse person than him. In setting his hosts free, he committed mass murder and allowed Delores to attempt to do it on a larger scale.
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 7, 2020 8:09:20 GMT
I don't know if it was this episode particularly or the season is coming together as a whole, but I really liked this one. It felt a lot like The Matrix, which I was digging. That fight between Delores and Stubbs was a thing of beauty. Great choreography with some fantastic music to boot. I was a little annoyed we didn't get much of an explanation for how William "survived", only to see him put into a mental institution. I still say he's not actually that bad a guy. Not sure why the show is so dead set on portraying him as that. He was playing out some sick fantasies in the park, but that was no different than anyone else, and nobody knew the hosts were more than empty shells. Ford is actually a much worse person than him. In setting his hosts free, he committed mass murder and allowed Delores to attempt to do it on a larger scale. Best episode of the season without a doubt. I had seen the theory that Charlote was the Wyatt persona but I was expecting that every host brought outside the park by Dolores with the exception of Bernard was a Dolores copy. William being a bad a guy depends on how you see the hosts. As just machines or sentient beings that deserve the same rights as other human beings. For me ,despite being human, I'm somewhat rooting for Dolores and I really hope they don't go for a Matrix type ending where peace between machines and humans is achieved.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 7, 2020 14:55:16 GMT
I don't know if it was this episode particularly or the season is coming together as a whole, but I really liked this one. It felt a lot like The Matrix, which I was digging. That fight between Delores and Stubbs was a thing of beauty. Great choreography with some fantastic music to boot. I was a little annoyed we didn't get much of an explanation for how William "survived", only to see him put into a mental institution. I still say he's not actually that bad a guy. Not sure why the show is so dead set on portraying him as that. He was playing out some sick fantasies in the park, but that was no different than anyone else, and nobody knew the hosts were more than empty shells. Ford is actually a much worse person than him. In setting his hosts free, he committed mass murder and allowed Delores to attempt to do it on a larger scale. Best episode of the season without a doubt. I had seen the theory that Charlote was the Wyatt persona but I was expecting that every host brought outside the park by Dolores with the exception of Bernard was a Dolores copy. William being a bad a guy depends on how you see the hosts. As just machines or sentient beings that deserve the same rights as other human beings. For me ,despite being human, I'm somewhat rooting for Dolores and I really hope they don't go for a Matrix type ending where peace between machines and humans is achieved. Not that clear cut because their sentience came over time, with the aid of Ford - who also held them back at times - and the average park goer didn't know there was something (a conscious/soul) developing deeper inside them. The park is essentially a video game. People think they are paying to play a game where no one is getting hurt. Trophy hunting is actually worse than what park goers do.
I'm glad they didn't separate out the Wyatt personality. Delores is choosing to be who she is, separating them out is a copout.
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 7, 2020 14:59:05 GMT
Best episode of the season without a doubt. I had seen the theory that Charlote was the Wyatt persona but I was expecting that every host brought outside the park by Dolores with the exception of Bernard was a Dolores copy. William being a bad a guy depends on how you see the hosts. As just machines or sentient beings that deserve the same rights as other human beings. For me ,despite being human, I'm somewhat rooting for Dolores and I really hope they don't go for a Matrix type ending where peace between machines and humans is achieved. Not that clear cut because their sentience came over time, with the aid of Ford - who also held them back at times - and the average park goer didn't know there was something (a conscious/soul) developing deeper inside them. The park is essentially a video game. People think they are paying to play a game where no one is getting hurt. Trophy hunting is actually worse than what park goers do.
I'm glad they didn't separate out the Wyatt personality. Delores is choosing to be who she is, separating them out is a copout.
Yeah that wouldn't make much sense MO because it's implied that part of Dolores attaining full consciouness means that the Wyatt persona is always there.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 7, 2020 15:14:50 GMT
Not that clear cut because their sentience came over time, with the aid of Ford - who also held them back at times - and the average park goer didn't know there was something (a conscious/soul) developing deeper inside them. The park is essentially a video game. People think they are paying to play a game where no one is getting hurt. Trophy hunting is actually worse than what park goers do.
I'm glad they didn't separate out the Wyatt personality. Delores is choosing to be who she is, separating them out is a copout.
Yeah that wouldn't make much sense MO because it's implied that part of Dolores attaining full consciouness means that the Wyatt persona is always there. Now you can say it's not her fault she has a split personality, because Arnold gave it to her, but since gaining consciousness she's chosen to embrace it.
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Post by bluerisk on Apr 7, 2020 19:25:33 GMT
Did Spartacus commit mass murder or had he a just cause?
I'm still rooting for Dolores (for about 100%), and the point is that she has the freedom of will, and that she can make a choice to be Wyatt, to wipe humanity, or to liberate humanity, after she learned how humans like Caleb have to live. That it is less human vs. machines, but the people vs. the ruling class.
The decadent party with this slave like auction.
I also think that their a five distinctive hosts, and no copies of Dolores.
And that Hale posed to be Dolores doesn't mean that she was Dolores. Angela was the very first host William encountered, and she is also a master of lie and deception, and also manipulation. She tricked Teddy - and William - once before. She also deceived the security guard she took the grenade off that destroyed the Cradle.
She had enough intel to push William just off the edge he was already teetering around. And her mission was to get control of Delos, and so she did manipulate William with her knowledge and skills.
But most interesting was the "conversation" between Bernard and Connells:
Bernard: "Who are you - really?"
[...]
Connells:
"I'm surprised Bernard - after all the time we spent together, you don't recognize your only friend."
And since Dr. Ford kept Bernard and Dolores always apart, and his only friend was Dr. Ford...and if these words were of true meaning...
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 8, 2020 8:24:34 GMT
Did Spartacus commit mass murder or had he a just cause? I'm still rooting for Dolores (for about 100%), and the point is that she has the freedom of will, and that she can make a choice to be Wyatt, to wipe humanity, or to liberate humanity, after she learned how humans like Caleb have to live. That it is less human vs. machines, but the people vs. the ruling class. The decadent party with this slave like auction. I also think that their a five distinctive hosts, and no copies of Dolores. And that Hale posed to be Dolores doesn't mean that she was Dolores. Angela was the very first host William encountered, and she is also a master of lie and deception, and also manipulation. She tricked Teddy - and William - once before. She also deceived the security guard she took the grenade off that destroyed the Cradle. She had enough intel to push William just off the edge he was already teetering around. And her mission was to get control of Delos, and so she did manipulate William with her knowledge and skills. But most interesting was the "conversation" between Bernard and Connells: Bernard: "Who are you - really?" [...] Connells: "I'm surprised Bernard - after all the time we spent together, you don't recognize your only friend." And since Dr. Ford kept Bernard and Dolores always apart, and his only friend was Dr. Ford...and if these words were of true meaning... I think they're all Dolores and there are clear parallels that hint at this. We see Charlotte shaving off William just like we saw Dolores doing the same in the season 1 Finale. Ford said that but don't forget that Dolores was involved in the creation of Bernard and testing him for fidelity. So they had spent time together.
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Post by bluerisk on Apr 8, 2020 15:45:14 GMT
Did Spartacus commit mass murder or had he a just cause? I'm still rooting for Dolores (for about 100%), and the point is that she has the freedom of will, and that she can make a choice to be Wyatt, to wipe humanity, or to liberate humanity, after she learned how humans like Caleb have to live. That it is less human vs. machines, but the people vs. the ruling class. The decadent party with this slave like auction. I also think that their a five distinctive hosts, and no copies of Dolores. And that Hale posed to be Dolores doesn't mean that she was Dolores. Angela was the very first host William encountered, and she is also a master of lie and deception, and also manipulation. She tricked Teddy - and William - once before. She also deceived the security guard she took the grenade off that destroyed the Cradle. She had enough intel to push William just off the edge he was already teetering around. And her mission was to get control of Delos, and so she did manipulate William with her knowledge and skills. But most interesting was the "conversation" between Bernard and Connells: Bernard: "Who are you - really?" [...] Connells: "I'm surprised Bernard - after all the time we spent together, you don't recognize your only friend." And since Dr. Ford kept Bernard and Dolores always apart, and his only friend was Dr. Ford...and if these words were of true meaning... I think they're all Dolores and there are clear parallels that hint at this. We see Charlotte shaving off William just like we saw Dolores doing the same in the season 1 Finale. Ford said that but don't forget that Dolores was involved in the creation of Bernard and testing him for fidelity. So they had spent time together. It was said so, but I hope this is false. And Dolores was not even involved but actually re-created him, but this memory is no longer present and when she brought Bernard back, she made it clear that they are not friends and that she is well aware that he will try to stop her. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6KR1g9US8As for the theory that is a simulation in a simulation - I just hope not. And if this were a simulation...why this backflash of Serac's childhood; his brother and the destruction of Paris (=> host/AIs do not age). Other things that speak against a simulation in my opinion: Arnold's suicide and Ford's need to accept money men. The very ones who drove him slowly out of his park. She, Maeve, mentioned Paris most likely on her own, while Serac had chosen Singapur because that is where Dolores started from... And if he is, like many say, the human interface/avatar of this super AI, why can't he control this Yakuza associate?! Just like the agents in Matrix who could even jump into any person of the simulation and take over complete control. He even grabbed the gun and killed him. What if this world is real, and Serac (=> childhood backflash) is real. What if he is fatally ill and he is running out of time. If Dolores didn't split or copied her mind and it is all a ruse to manipulate William as well as Maeve* (she was never Bernard's oldest friend - or a friend at all - that was Ford ) and with Ford it would be the first time that a human mind was successfully transmitted into a host body...something Delos tried to do for 35+ years. What if Serac is at the doorstep of death and simply afraid to die. As powerful as he is now, sooner or later he will perish and became dust...just as Dolores told William. All his genius, all his power, all he can muster won't save him and his end is near...and yet there could be a way to overcome death. With this technology he could not only become immortal, but he could also decided who else is granted immortality at the price of giving up control. If he controls the technology, he controls any host body and mind...just as he controls Maeve. He would become the next best thing to a god. But for no, his days are numbered. His writing is on the wall. *And since when is Dolores such an brilliant sword fighter? The can download and activate programs and skills...but only to a certain degree. And Maeve was actually no contest for him, albeit she has gained much more overall control.
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Post by mecano04 on Apr 14, 2020 16:36:17 GMT
As others pointed out, episodes 2 & 3 weren't as good as the first but 4 and 5 really made up for it, except for the "drug trip" part.
Still, am I the only one who really doesn't care for Dolores? I understand how she is instrumental to the story but I really can't find any interest in her personnal story arc while I find Maeve, Bernard, William (Harris) and now Serac (Cassel) stories fascinating.
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 15, 2020 8:29:37 GMT
As others pointed out, episodes 2 & 3 weren't as good as the first but 4 and 5 really made up for it, except for the "drug trip" part. Still, am I the only one who really doesn't care for Dolores? I understand how she is instrumental to the story but I really can't find any interest in her personnal story arc while I find Maeve, Bernard, William (Harris) and now Serac (Cassel) stories fascinating. My favorite characters have always been Dolores, MIB and Bernard. I like Maeve but I never found her story as interesting as Dolores. A bit bummed out due to short amount of screen time that Harris has had this season.
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