Farside
Sophomore
@alienwerewolf
Posts: 890
Likes: 232
 
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Post by Farside on Mar 24, 2020 1:07:03 GMT
His last name is "Luzer". Talk about a bad omen. 
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Honolulu
Sophomore
@jrvarsityrules
Posts: 389
Likes: 93
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Post by Honolulu on Mar 24, 2020 11:21:20 GMT
Oh brother. You are playing the definition game again. Why is it people have to play that game whenever Gameboy is around? Must be some type of cult activity.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Mar 24, 2020 11:44:19 GMT
Cultship (like beauty) is in the mind of the beholder. Irrespective of whether Hasidic Jews are a cult: Freedom of religion raises a double standard. Everyone wants your freedom to join their religion, yet those same hypocritical people withhold freedom of religion if a member wants to leave. I believe the Quran calls for the death penalty for those leaving Muslimhood. To me, the prohibition of leaving an organization is a "CULT" red flag.
Thou shalt not steal calendars lest ye receive twelve months. - Proverbs 20:20
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Post by FridayOnElmStreet on Mar 24, 2020 15:10:50 GMT
Thats a shitty mother. Anyone who chooses religion over their child is not a real parent.
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Honolulu
Sophomore
@jrvarsityrules
Posts: 389
Likes: 93
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Post by Honolulu on Mar 24, 2020 15:20:53 GMT
Cultship (like beauty) is in the mind of the beholder. Irrespective of whether Hasidic Jews are a cult: Freedom of religion raises a double standard. Everyone wants your freedom to join their religion, yet those same hypocritical people withhold freedom of religion if a member wants to leave. I believe the Quran calls for the death penalty for those leaving Muslimhood. To me, the prohibition of leaving an organization is a "CULT" red flag.
Thou shalt not steal calendars lest ye receive twelve months. - Proverbs 20:20
Lol yeah really? Sounds like a bunch of desperate people who use religion as their excuse to hold onto someone they love that doesn't want to be with them anymore.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Mar 24, 2020 16:41:21 GMT
They are cults gamey. All religions are cults:
cult
/kʌlt/
See definitions in:
all
religion
anthropology
noun
noun: cult; plural noun: cults
1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
"a network of Satan-worshipping cults"
Similar:
sect
religious group
denomination
religious order
church
faith
faith community
belief
persuasion
affiliation
movement
group
body
faction
clique
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing.
"the cult of the pursuit of money as an end in itself"
h
Similar:
obsession with
fixation on
mania for
passion for
idolization of
admiration for
devotion to
worship of
veneration of
reverence for
2.
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.
You're purposely misunderstanding the definition. I've said this before. I'm an atheist. But when atheists get extreme to the point where they call Catholics or Orthodox Jews or Methodists a "cult", the atheist themselves become crazy, extreme and "cult-like".  I'm not gonna go as far as calling religion in general a "cult" particularly since many people who were raised and identify as "Christian" aren't even really particularly religious (in fact many of them probably don't even really believe in it). I do think an argument could be made for Hassidics at least being cult like though. From my understanding they live in their own tight nit communities, they have to have a beard, have to have their hair a certain way, have to wear certain clothes, haveto follow a strict Kosher diet can only marry other Hassidics, if they try to leave they get disowned by their parents and probably a bunch of other wacky rules. If that's not "cult-like" I dunno what is.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Mar 24, 2020 17:16:12 GMT
Thats a shitty mother. Anyone who chooses religion over their child is not a real parent. The film Apostasy depicts a JW mother who disowns one daughter who became pregnant by a non-JW. All-the-while watching another daughter pass away because mom forbid a blood transfusion. Now, the mother is alone, but she still looks forward to her trice-weekly meetings at the Kingdom Hall.
The film was available on Amazon Prime a few months ago. Perhaps it still is.
Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death. -
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Post by lowtacks86 on Mar 24, 2020 17:22:17 GMT
I'm not gonna go as far as calling religion in general a "cult" particularly since many people who were raised and identify as "Christian" aren't even really particularly religious (in fact many of them probably don't even really believe in it). I do think an argument could be made for Hassidics at least being cult like though. From my understanding they live in their own tight nit communities, they have to have a beard, have to have their hair a certain way, have to wear certain clothes, haveto follow a strict Kosher diet can only marry other Hassidics, if they try to leave they get disowned by their parents and probably a bunch of other wacky rules. If that's not "cult-like" I dunno what is. Hasidic Jews are bizarre. But they're just a sect of Orthodox Jews, maybe Ultra. I just looked it up and 5% of all Jews are Hasidic. Jews themselves are a rather progressive folk. I'm just not sure that because a religion is a little weird to the rest of us, that it's a cult.  "But they're just a sect of Orthodox Jews" I would argue certain sects of Christianity (Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Amish) are cult like as well. "Jews themselves are a rather progressive folk." Depends on what you mean by "jewish". Ethnic jews general I agree are more progressive/liberal (they generally tend to vote Democrat). Ethnic jews in general tend be overwhelmingly irreligious though (in fact I believe the atheist rate is higher among them than gentiles). If you were to sample strictly devout Jews, the conservative rate would probably be higher (there's a correlation between religion and conservative beliefs). Many devoutly religious jews are quite conservative (Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager come to mind) especially since the GOP is far more supportive of Israel.
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Farside
Sophomore
@alienwerewolf
Posts: 890
Likes: 232
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Post by Farside on Mar 24, 2020 17:31:12 GMT
Thats a shitty mother. Anyone who chooses religion over their child is not a real parent. The film Apostasy depicts a JW mother who disowns one daughter who became pregnant by a non-JW. All-the-while watching another daughter pass away because mom forbid a blood transfusion. Now, the mother is alone, but she still looks forward to her trice-weekly meetings at the Kingdom Hall.
The film was available on Amazon Prime a few months ago. Perhaps it still is.
I was hoping it was going to be a documentary.
Anyone remember that My Book Of Bible Stories they made showing all the Old Testament killings? I actually happen to like the JWs, because they live up to their name. They are witnesses to Jewhova's crimes: www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-stories/
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Farside
Sophomore
@alienwerewolf
Posts: 890
Likes: 232
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Post by Farside on Mar 24, 2020 17:57:50 GMT
"But they're just a sect of Orthodox Jews" I would argue certain sects of Christianity (Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Amish) are cult like as well. "Jews themselves are a rather progressive folk." Depends on what you mean by "jewish". Ethnic jews general I agree are more progressive/liberal (they generally tend to vote Democrat). Ethnic jews in general tend be overwhelmingly irreligious though (in fact I believe the atheist rate is higher among them than gentiles). Many devoutly religious jews are quite conservative though (Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager come to mind) especially since the GOP is far more supportive of Israel. Jewish conservatives are rare though. And yes I'll admit that Prager is a political conservative. However, you have to acknowledge that Jewish conservatives like Prager are not saying homosexuals will burn in hell. And they're not saying they are the only ones who will go to heaven either. That's very different than many Christian conservatives. Jews are less parochial. I don't see Hasidic Jews carrying "God Hates Fags" signs.
I respect your opinion but,...
Mormonism is cool for having multiple wives. But how did anyone fall for Joseph Smith's crazy story?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Mar 24, 2020 18:20:54 GMT
"But they're just a sect of Orthodox Jews" I would argue certain sects of Christianity (Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Amish) are cult like as well. "Jews themselves are a rather progressive folk." Depends on what you mean by "jewish". Ethnic jews general I agree are more progressive/liberal (they generally tend to vote Democrat). Ethnic jews in general tend be overwhelmingly irreligious though (in fact I believe the atheist rate is higher among them than gentiles). Many devoutly religious jews are quite conservative though (Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager come to mind) especially since the GOP is far more supportive of Israel. Jewish conservatives are rare though. And yes I'll admit that Prager is a political conservative. However, you have to acknowledge that Jewish conservatives like Prager are not saying homosexuals will burn in hell. And they're not saying they are the only ones who will go to heaven either. That's very different than many Christian conservatives. Jews are less parochial. I don't see Hasidic Jews carrying "God Hates Fags" signs. And if you're saying Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are cults, I see the fallacy in your position right there. I have Mormon family. They're very normal people. My sister has never disowned her gay son, my nephew. And she even welcomed his black boyfriend into the family. As for Jehovah's Witnesses, I have a drinking buddy who is a very religious JW. You're stereotyping. Mormons, JW's, Hasidics are admittedly extreme when it comes to theology. But I do know that Mormons and JW's are not isolated, work and live among us, and are definitely not isolated cults. "Jewish conservatives are rare though" Are they really? Some of the most prominent figures in conservatism have been jewish (Kissinger, Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, Alan greenspan, Charles Kratuhammer, Paul Wolfowitz). Hell neoconservatism was practically invented by a jew (Irving Kristol). Again the GOP is far more supportive of Israel, so of course they're going to attract quite a few religious jews. "And yes I'll admit that Prager is a political conservative. However, you have to acknowledge that Jewish conservatives like Prager are not saying homosexuals will burn in hell" Well yeah, that's because they don't actually believe in Hell. Many still condemn it though (Shapiro comes to mind). "And if you're saying Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are cults, I see the fallacy in your position right there. I have Mormon family. They're very normal people. My sister has never disowned her gay son, my nephew." You using personal anecdotes and accuse me of being fallacious? Last time I checked, Mormons official stance on homosexuality was that it was forbidden. "As for Jehovah's Witnesses, I have a drinking buddy who is a very religious JW. You're stereotyping." No I'm not, again personal anecdotes is not reliable evidence. Some of their official stances: you can only attend their church (you can't intermingle with outside churches/faiths) they're often obligated to do door to door service They're not supposed to vote They're not supposed to take blood transfusions If they leave the faith, they get ostracized by their congregation (and often their own family) That doesn't strike you as "cultish"? "But I do know that Mormons and JW's are not isolated" They're not isolated perse, they're just discouraged from associating with people that can make them questions their own beliefs. So while it's not a full on "physical isolation", intermingling with outside faiths/ideas is stringently forbidden to the point where they might as well just be isolated. Also to be fair I never said they were "cults" perse but rather cult like.
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Post by thefleetsin on Mar 24, 2020 23:29:14 GMT
i know, let's cover the streets in chicken blood and call it: nearer my god to thee.
we can book a theater and produce a musical all about the whackiness of the world around us but we're perfectly normal.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Mar 28, 2020 0:23:27 GMT
"Jewish conservatives are rare though" Are they really? Some of the most prominent figures in conservatism have been jewish (Kissinger, Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, Alan greenspan, Charles Kratuhammer, Paul Wolfowitz). Hell neoconservatism was practically invented by a jew (Irving Kristol). Again the GOP is far more supportive of Israel, so of course they're going to attract quite a few religious jews. "And yes I'll admit that Prager is a political conservative. However, you have to acknowledge that Jewish conservatives like Prager are not saying homosexuals will burn in hell" Well yeah, that's because they don't actually believe in Hell. Many still condemn it though (Shapiro comes to mind). "And if you're saying Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are cults, I see the fallacy in your position right there. I have Mormon family. They're very normal people. My sister has never disowned her gay son, my nephew." You using personal anecdotes and accuse me of being fallacious? Last time I checked, Mormons official stance on homosexuality was that it was forbidden. "As for Jehovah's Witnesses, I have a drinking buddy who is a very religious JW. You're stereotyping." No I'm not, again personal anecdotes is not reliable evidence. Some of their official stances: you can only attend their church (you can't intermingle with outside churches/faiths) they're often obligated to do door to door service They're not supposed to vote They're not supposed to take blood transfusions If they leave the faith, they get ostracized by their congregation (and often their own family) That doesn't strike you as "cultish"? "But I do know that Mormons and JW's are not isolated" They're not isolated perse, they're just discouraged from associating with people that can make them questions their own beliefs. So while it's not a full on "physical isolation", intermingling with outside faiths/ideas is stringently forbidden to the point where they might as well just be isolated. Also to be fair I never said they were "cults" perse but rather cult like. Awww, the old strawman of "personal anecdotes". Stop being disingenuous. I'm giving you examples of how Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not "cult-like" as they do not isolate and work and live and integrate with the world. Exclusionary aspects of religion are common. Even the Kiwanis Club doesn't let nonmembers attend their activities. Are they a cult too? Branch Davidians were a cult. They isolated and allowed their leaders to commit crimes against members of the group. Merely because Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have beliefs you do not like, it does not mean they are a cult or "cult-like". If you'll remember, Mitt Romney, a Mormon, was a candidate for President of the United States. Romey was not exactly Charles Manson. Dude, Mormons have a very unique and abrasive theology. But they are not a cult or "cult-like". You're allowing your own distaste for religion interfere with your common sense. "Awww, the old strawman of "personal anecdotes". That's not a "strawman", you used personal experience instead of actual facts/data to make an argument, yeah that's personal anecdote fallacy. I don't think you know what strawman means. "I'm giving you examples of how Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not "cult-like" You gave me personal experiences, that't not a good way to form an argument. Giving some first hand accounts doesn't look at the overall big picture and of course there's also the issue of confirmation bias. If we're gonna play the silly personal experience game, ok the growing up I know a couple of Mormon children that were homeschooled, sheltered by their overprotective mother, and weren't allowed to watch TV, therefore that's pretty much Mormonism in general. Refute my personal experience. Do you see why that's a terrible way to make an argument? I gave a list of rules that JWs and Mormons are supposed to followed, I notice you didn't respond to most of them. "as they do not isolate and work and live and integrate with the world." I already addressed this argument. Maybe they're not physically isolated perse, but again they're discouraged from intermingly witch outside churches, don't allow outside ideas to seep in to their church, congregations/families disown children that don't want to follow the relgion, and children are often homeschooled. That is at the very least a form of "mental isolation" "Exclusionary aspects of religion are common." Yes and I consider that cultish behavior. That's typically how brainwashing works, you don't want any outside ideas/influence seeping in. That's a core component of cults. "Even the Kiwanis Club doesn't let nonmembers attend their activities. Are they a cult too? " I don't know much about Kiwanis, but depending on the context, yeah that could be considered cultish behavior. "Merely because Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have beliefs you do not like, it does not mean they are a cult or "cult-like". " Me not liking something has nothing to do with my decision of whether it qualifies as "cultish". I don't like the Branch Davidians or Heaven's Gate, by your lazy reasoning do they not qualify as "cults"? "If you'll remember, Mitt Romney, a Mormon, was a candidate for President of the United States. Romey was not exactly Charles Manson" I think I'm starting to see the problem, unless they're just complete violent lunatics like the Davidians or Manson Family, they don't as a "cult". You have a very narrow, reductionist view of what constitutes "cultish behavior". By that reasoning any number of absurd beliefs and groups don't count as "cults". Tell, me if a group of people wanted to isolate themselves like Hassidics, but instead of worshipping God, they worshhipped Garfield the cat, pray regularly to him, don't want outside influence discrediting, and disowns family members that don't worship him, would that also not qualify as a "cult" as long as they're not engaging in violent behavior? Because that is the level of riddiculousness you're basically arguing. "You're allowing your own distaste for religion interfere with your common sense. " You're using personal anecdotes, strawmans, and narrow reductionism, you're in no position to be accusing anyone of not using "common sense".
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