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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 23:00:53 GMT
Hopefully the spirit of competition doesn't get to them too hard. I think it's a given a combination of booking talent and writing will take out anybody who doesn't belong. Vision is a pretty bad-ass Avenger I wouldn't cross in a fight, but all it takes is some magic metal and a sneak attack to take him out in the first act of Infinity War.
In theory they shouldn't want to kill each other. A motivated booker could craft a scenario where Black Widow wins, although she'd have her work cut out for her because like Dazz pointed out, removing your legs may be an enviable talent and she definitely can't do that.
Wrestling's always been interesting even though I haven't watched it in years. It's interesting because every match is two matches at the same time. You have the scripted version with wrestlers feeding the credibility of a scripted outcome. Then you've got the match behind the match, who would win if things got ugly? Who would win if a wrestler goes stiff, goes off-script, tries to hurt you? Once upon a time, the toughest wrestlers were the wrestlers who were the most believably dominant; on one hand they're scripted to win and on the other, they'd handle themselves if things got real. I think I read today's average WWE wrestler is college educated.
Wrestling's hilarious sometimes because the things they do to each other, you'd think would never be settled by a match. More like a duel in the parking lot. Sometimes it gets so personal it amazes me they don't kill each other with guns.
Back to power v cunning, a good writer (of which you clearly are) could make just about anything work if you wanted. Wanda is one of my favorite people to make the example because she's as strong as she is young and naive. Her power makes her a heavy hitter but if she's not careful, she could be taken down by a human.
Alternatively in the land of the real, I've read before that Chris Jericho took down Bill Goldberg in a backroom scuffle, so clearly his giant muscles don't tell the whole story.
I like the fact the concept of an MCU royal rumble makes alternating amounts of sense to us each. In my original version, the people I had pegged to be there until the end were defined by their heart. Two of my final four were Captain America and Daredevil, the "I can do this all day" twins of the MCU.
I like your selection of Thor as a winner. By the time Thor Ragnarok and Infinity War came out, he was looking as strong in leadership capabilities and heart as he was in power, the dominant species. My cue taken from WWE was thew only way to eliminate Thor is if he eliminated himself by brawling somebody to the back. It is however the heart, strength and leadership that is the sum of his parts that puts him over Captain Marvel for me, if it were down to the two.
It's also why I see people such as Loki, Black Widow and other potentially less powerful characters going far. They're cunning, will do things others won't and have heart. It's actually I'm almost certain Gamora will be the one to eliminate Quill. She's colder and more logical, she'll go the extra mile he won't.
Incidentally I have no idea how Vision handles electricity. Makes you wonder what the hell they added to Cap's shield, why is it that doesn't conduct electricity but Vision does? what did they add to the mix other than the vibranium, or is it simply a plot hole hmmm???
Glad someone appreciates the legless defence I suggested, sure it's a little Jim Herd and the Hunchbacks but hey this time I think it can work, for Groot atleast, Gamora could always just come walking out with Nebula's legs and drop them on the floor eliminating Nebula before even getting in the ring, oh the possibilities.
The Jericho/Goldberg story is hilarious, as is how it culminates and starts which is the same thing it was that short, Goldberg lunges for Y2J, Y2J gets him in a guillotine choke iirc and holds Goldberg in place as Goldberg screams at him "if you let me up I'm gonna kick your ass", wrestling actually started as semi shoots, it's always been worked so you know who was going over but they used to legit wrestle for dominance in the matches, but stories of the legit tough guys in wrestling are hilarious, as are the stories about the wannabe tough guys, Goldberg again springs to mind because he was so buying into his own hype he almost cost himself the use of his right hand because he wanted to and did punch through a legit limo window with his bare hands rather than smash the windows using a bat or a pipe, causing him to cut his arm up real bad and almost severe nerves or some shit, which put him on the injured list for like 6 months or so, oh Goldberg you utter mark.
Indeed! I love those stories, they're so interesting and tell such a different story about who's tough and who isn't. Who who're tougher than who. I think there was a similar scuffle between Booker T and Batista where Booker got the upper hand. They're more evenly sized but at the time I think Batista was being pushed to the moon.
So I guess you could say Booker T took down Drax.
God that's so funny about Goldberg. I'm about 99% positive I remember that limo window punch too. What a funny, funny man. Remember the old schoolyard dis you so dumb you got hit by a parked car? Well there's Goldberg saying its not funny man, a parked car injured me for six months. 
It's been so long but those days were a lot of fun. Monday Night Wars and so forth.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 28, 2020 0:01:49 GMT
Here's the fight between Vision and Hawkeye where Hawkeye used electric arrows to contain Vision: You can see that Vision was helpless to move up until he finally used his gem to blast the arrow to disrupt the electric field. As for writing up the match to make others win, of course I could do that. The better the writer, the more believable the story that they come up with, even if they make the weakest character win. But as for this match, I was trying to go with simply who had the greatest chance at winning if we simply considered all the heroes as they are, without needing to spin a story out of it. That's why I gave it to Thor, and later to Loki because he has a good chance of surviving to the very end simply due to his alliance with Thor. If we went with WWE-style writing then it would end up being whoever the flavor of the month was, in which case winner would probably be Captain Marvel to boost her status or go for a complete upset like making Spiderman win. Captain America would always have a chance at winning because he's like king of the underdogs and Ironman is a clear fan favorite so he has a chance at well. Actually no you ignored various points that didn't serve your story in which Thor/Loki win, such as teams don't really work due to the entrance aspect which completely randomises and compromises the team work aspect, Hulk and Loki not being the best team mates due to Loki being treacherous and Hulk just being Hulk.
You discard Vision because Thor can shock him but again that just holds him in place he can still fire his mind stone and density shift making him immovable, the mind stone is not effected by electricity and is what controls his phasing and such, and you had it where Hulk is dumb Hulk but somehow going to go with the plan until the end? Hulk and Thor would get into it long before the match is won, hell Hulk could eliminate Thor by cheap shotting him ala Avengers then being goaded into attacking Strange or someone and being chucked out by any number of means whilst in mid air.
Keep in mind the Sorcerer's can deflect attacks, create mystical weapons to beat people with, entangle and toss people around with magical bands and chains and such, create platforms to prevent them touching the floor as well as offset their opponents mid air, Hulk comes in for a jumping clubbing blow they can create a shield slide to fling him out using his own momentum.
The way you actually figured it doesn't even work in a BR now I think about it, you set it out gauntlet style as if each group was just going to go at it one on one or group on group, it's not like that it's a hodge podge, people wont be sitting around with their thumbs up their arses waiting to be ticked off, as powerful as the Revengers are, if they can even get Hulk on their side with Widow on another team anyway, their so powerful everyone else will team up to take them out first, that's the problem being so OP, well maybe they take out CM first then the Revengers, and with the entire other group fighting the powerhouses the likes of Wanda & Vision or even IM, remember how he managed to throw Thor around a bit in Avengers now with his super update tech he can do even more, I mean he drew blood from Thanos, Thor couldn't without Stormbreaker, tells you how powerful that new armour is meant to be, but yeah those guys can easily snipe Thor and the others out with ease, in the end you spun a story to fit your desired outcome which was not in any way likely to happen given the actual premise of a RR match, of even a likely strategic possibility give the uneven power dynamic one group has if allowed to stay on too long, which btw is fine but don't try and pretend you didn't spin a bloody story mate, you absolutely did.
Ok, let's address your concerns 1 by 1. 1. Teams won't work - if you've watched previous Royal Rumbles, you'll know that team-ups absolutely happen. There are even times when the 2 guys in the ring refuse to fight each other because they're friends and simply wait for the next person to come in at which point they gang up on him. It will also mean that strong contenders who can last long have a higher chance of forming their teams as they can survive long enough to team up. In which case, again, the Revengers have the advantage in that majority of the strongest characters are part of their team. It's not for certain, sure, but they have the strongest case for being able to team up. Whatever criticisms you have against Loki and Hulk being able to practice team-work is contradicted by the fact that they've actually shown team work on screen. 2. Vision can still density shift and phase despite getting electrocuted - again, please prove this. You keep claiming stuff without backing it up with proof. Vision was caught in the electricity trap that Hawkeye set. He couldn't phase through the floor to escape from it, couldn't make himself heavy enough to break through the floor to escape from it. So please provide proof. Yes, Vision can still blast with the mind stone. So? Ironman can still blast with his weapons, Thor can still blast lightning, Carol can still blast with her powers, but all of them have the advantage of being able to move. Vision being immobile and relegated to simply using his mind stone blasts would be at a severe disadvantage against the other heavy hitters in this match and would be easily knocked out of the ring. 3. Sorcerers can create shields and weapons and platforms - let me ask you: Who were the strongest enemies that they fought off with those weapons? I certainly don't recall their weapons being that effective against opponents on the strength level of Hulk or Vision or Carol. Yes they can generate chains but other than Dr. Strange, I don't recall them generating chains that can hold down extremely strong opponents. Their shields and platforms are definitely useful, and that's why I was thinking they're some of the last ones to get eliminated. But in the end they just haven't shown enough firepower to be able to push out the strongest players here, especially if teams start forming. 4. You're mentioning how IM now has his super-updated suit. I agree. But don't forget that Thor has now unlocked his full thundergod powers and also carries around Stormbreaker. You really think they can snipe beings who've been proven to be proof against almost every human-made weapon? Remember the last time Ironman blasted Thor in the face point-blank with his repulsor? Nothing happened. Thor didn't even get a rash. Obviously Ironman has gotten stronger since then but then so did Thor. 5. I didn't "spin a story". I pointed out who the most powerful players are in this match and pointed out who would win IF we didn't spin a story. Now IF you want to go ahead and spin a story WWE-Style then yeah, you could definitely make anyone a winner to fit the narrative and I'll respect your opinion on that. After all, you're the one who replied and criticized my post. All I'm doing is trying to defend my stance. I have absolutely no problem with your no-legs winner story.
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Post by dazz on Mar 28, 2020 8:01:14 GMT
Makes you wonder what the hell they added to Cap's shield, why is it that doesn't conduct electricity but Vision does? what did they add to the mix other than the vibranium, or is it simply a plot hole hmmm???
Glad someone appreciates the legless defence I suggested, sure it's a little Jim Herd and the Hunchbacks but hey this time I think it can work, for Groot atleast, Gamora could always just come walking out with Nebula's legs and drop them on the floor eliminating Nebula before even getting in the ring, oh the possibilities.
The Jericho/Goldberg story is hilarious, as is how it culminates and starts which is the same thing it was that short, Goldberg lunges for Y2J, Y2J gets him in a guillotine choke iirc and holds Goldberg in place as Goldberg screams at him "if you let me up I'm gonna kick your ass", wrestling actually started as semi shoots, it's always been worked so you know who was going over but they used to legit wrestle for dominance in the matches, but stories of the legit tough guys in wrestling are hilarious, as are the stories about the wannabe tough guys, Goldberg again springs to mind because he was so buying into his own hype he almost cost himself the use of his right hand because he wanted to and did punch through a legit limo window with his bare hands rather than smash the windows using a bat or a pipe, causing him to cut his arm up real bad and almost severe nerves or some shit, which put him on the injured list for like 6 months or so, oh Goldberg you utter mark.
Indeed! I love those stories, they're so interesting and tell such a different story about who's tough and who isn't. Who who're tougher than who. I think there was a similar scuffle between Booker T and Batista where Booker got the upper hand. They're more evenly sized but at the time I think Batista was being pushed to the moon.
So I guess you could say Booker T took down Drax.
God that's so funny about Goldberg. I'm about 99% positive I remember that limo window punch too. What a funny, funny man. Remember the old schoolyard dis you so dumb you got hit by a parked car? Well there's Goldberg saying its not funny man, a parked car injured me for six months. 
It's been so long but those days were a lot of fun. Monday Night Wars and so forth.
That and the crazy stories of the legit tough guys just messing idiots up when they called wrestlers fake at the bar, like one guy did it to Bill Watt when he was drinking I think with Hacksaw Duggan and Mad Dog Vachon, Mad Dog went crazy and fucked the guy up something fierce without Bill or Duggan moving a muscle, which led to Watt's commenting "see what happens when you mess with the big guys" because Mad Dog is just fucking tiny by comparison, then again Mad Dog when he lost his leg and had to have a prosthetic let HBK & Diesel use the fake leg as a weapon during their Good Friends, Better enemies match, oh Mad Dog they don't make em like you anymore...good for society, bad for wrestling.
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Post by dazz on Mar 28, 2020 9:33:12 GMT
Actually no you ignored various points that didn't serve your story in which Thor/Loki win, such as teams don't really work due to the entrance aspect which completely randomises and compromises the team work aspect, Hulk and Loki not being the best team mates due to Loki being treacherous and Hulk just being Hulk.
You discard Vision because Thor can shock him but again that just holds him in place he can still fire his mind stone and density shift making him immovable, the mind stone is not effected by electricity and is what controls his phasing and such, and you had it where Hulk is dumb Hulk but somehow going to go with the plan until the end? Hulk and Thor would get into it long before the match is won, hell Hulk could eliminate Thor by cheap shotting him ala Avengers then being goaded into attacking Strange or someone and being chucked out by any number of means whilst in mid air.
Keep in mind the Sorcerer's can deflect attacks, create mystical weapons to beat people with, entangle and toss people around with magical bands and chains and such, create platforms to prevent them touching the floor as well as offset their opponents mid air, Hulk comes in for a jumping clubbing blow they can create a shield slide to fling him out using his own momentum.
The way you actually figured it doesn't even work in a BR now I think about it, you set it out gauntlet style as if each group was just going to go at it one on one or group on group, it's not like that it's a hodge podge, people wont be sitting around with their thumbs up their arses waiting to be ticked off, as powerful as the Revengers are, if they can even get Hulk on their side with Widow on another team anyway, their so powerful everyone else will team up to take them out first, that's the problem being so OP, well maybe they take out CM first then the Revengers, and with the entire other group fighting the powerhouses the likes of Wanda & Vision or even IM, remember how he managed to throw Thor around a bit in Avengers now with his super update tech he can do even more, I mean he drew blood from Thanos, Thor couldn't without Stormbreaker, tells you how powerful that new armour is meant to be, but yeah those guys can easily snipe Thor and the others out with ease, in the end you spun a story to fit your desired outcome which was not in any way likely to happen given the actual premise of a RR match, of even a likely strategic possibility give the uneven power dynamic one group has if allowed to stay on too long, which btw is fine but don't try and pretend you didn't spin a bloody story mate, you absolutely did.
Ok, let's address your concerns 1 by 1. 1. Teams won't work - if you've watched previous Royal Rumbles, you'll know that team-ups absolutely happen. There are even times when the 2 guys in the ring refuse to fight each other because they're friends and simply wait for the next person to come in at which point they gang up on him. It will also mean that strong contenders who can last long have a higher chance of forming their teams as they can survive long enough to team up. In which case, again, the Revengers have the advantage in that majority of the strongest characters are part of their team. It's not for certain, sure, but they have the strongest case for being able to team up. Whatever criticisms you have against Loki and Hulk being able to practice team-work is contradicted by the fact that they've actually shown team work on screen. 2. Vision can still density shift and phase despite getting electrocuted - again, please prove this. You keep claiming stuff without backing it up with proof. Vision was caught in the electricity trap that Hawkeye set. He couldn't phase through the floor to escape from it, couldn't make himself heavy enough to break through the floor to escape from it. So please provide proof. Yes, Vision can still blast with the mind stone. So? Ironman can still blast with his weapons, Thor can still blast lightning, Carol can still blast with her powers, but all of them have the advantage of being able to move. Vision being immobile and relegated to simply using his mind stone blasts would be at a severe disadvantage against the other heavy hitters in this match and would be easily knocked out of the ring. 3. Sorcerers can create shields and weapons and platforms - let me ask you: Who were the strongest enemies that they fought off with those weapons? I certainly don't recall their weapons being that effective against opponents on the strength level of Hulk or Vision or Carol. Yes they can generate chains but other than Dr. Strange, I don't recall them generating chains that can hold down extremely strong opponents. Their shields and platforms are definitely useful, and that's why I was thinking they're some of the last ones to get eliminated. But in the end they just haven't shown enough firepower to be able to push out the strongest players here, especially if teams start forming. 4. You're mentioning how IM now has his super-updated suit. I agree. But don't forget that Thor has now unlocked his full thundergod powers and also carries around Stormbreaker. You really think they can snipe beings who've been proven to be proof against almost every human-made weapon? Remember the last time Ironman blasted Thor in the face point-blank with his repulsor? Nothing happened. Thor didn't even get a rash. Obviously Ironman has gotten stronger since then but then so did Thor. 5. I didn't "spin a story". I pointed out who the most powerful players are in this match and pointed out who would win IF we didn't spin a story. Now IF you want to go ahead and spin a story WWE-Style then yeah, you could definitely make anyone a winner to fit the narrative and I'll respect your opinion on that. After all, you're the one who replied and criticized my post. All I'm doing is trying to defend my stance. I have absolutely no problem with your no-legs winner story. 1: Yes but unless the Revengers form from the very start, and even then to control Hulk enough to team up you will likely need Valkyrie and Thor to start off together, then hope they can stay until Hulk gets there, and depending on the variation on Hulk this will only go so far, Avengers Hulk may just knock Thor out because well he's kind of a dick, Hulk not Thor, Ragnarok Hulk could do it by being childish and simply throwing someone to Thor at an inopportune time, let alone them starting to brawl because Thor or Hulk get pissed at one another, and again Hulk's loyalty can easily shift with Widow turning up.
Plus people can only be eliminated once entered the ring, ranged strikers can attack and throw those powerhouses out or wait for others to gang up on them without entering meaning they also cannot be eliminated even if Thor starts throwing lightning, let alone if CM comes out before the full Revengers team can get in place to fight her off, team ups can work but not huge group efforts like you suggest long term, Loki's traitorousness also plays a factor, only a handful of people are a challenge to him, half of which are on his own team, he's more likely to eliminate or allow them to be eliminated once the few others are taken out, if he even waits that long as he may get cocky and underestimate Vision or Wanda.
2: Density shifting is tied to the mind stone, the mind stone he can use whilst being electrocuted, we saw in CW that Wanda used her powers to activate the stone to force him to phase as to release Clint from Vision's grip, so you need to prove this doesn't work, evidence shows the mind stone works even during electrocution, no evidence to suggest it doesn't, just because he doesn't do as you say in the CW scene doesn't mean it isn't possible, he also didn't blast the arrow's straight away he clearly thought about the best way out of the situation, which was eliminate the weapons rather than just escape them.
And again he is only stuck whilst being shocked, so you have to assume Thor knows this and doesn't drop his guard, and knows to grab vision from behind so he cannot be blasted, imo more likely Vision will outthink Thor and at an opportune time blast him there by freeing himself and quickly eliminating Thor if the two get into a scuffle, let alone the density shifting side of things.
3: Strange used them to fight Thanos and held his own for a fair bit against him whilst he was wielding 5 of the Infinity Stones, Strange maybe the sorcerer supreme that doesn't mean only he has effective use of the magics on hand, and again yes they wont be able to over power the likes of the Revengers but power doesn't defy gravity they can actually use their shields to build platforms for them to get elevation and then lasso the likes of Thor around the waist and hoist them into the air and swung out of the ring, if they catch Thor off guard his power wont really prevent this, only in a straight up tug of war does that help, Hulk is immune to this due to his sheer weight however.
Yes Thor & Hulk will likely smash through their shields if used to simply block their blows my point is them using them creatively to throw them off balance and creating a slide to roll them out of the ring, creative thinking is what I am using which I believe they would to, where as you are like Thor & Hulk only thinking about brute strength, what happens to those deadly shockwave attacks when mid air a platform appears just under the feet of Thor or Hulk and not their fists or hammer? they lose balance is my guess and fall which then lends itself to the slide approach I said.
4: Yes but I am not talking about it damaging Thor, I am talking about the concussive force knocking him back, Tony sent Thor flying in Avengers, but he didn't leave a mark on him, it isn't about hurting Thor but sending him flying, the faster and more powerful armour will knock Thor flying even further this time, and Thor as well as Hulk tend to like taking big jumps such as to deliver shockwave blasts, taking to the air opens Thor up for Tony's and other's big blasts which will be pointed upwards causing more distance for Thor to be sent flying, without the ability to fly with his hammers to stop himself Thor would be victim of physics, and with Tony doing the calculating the physics will likely send Thor out of the ring.
5: You absolutely did spin a story, so have I, so has anyone putting forth a perceived course of events, you story is the teams manage to all get together then start fighting and the Revengers stay amicable enough to not self destruct mid match, I spun mine based on the thinking powerhouses will take each other out leaving the stealthier competitors to last till the end, yours is based on what you perceive the powers to be, mine is based on the strategic play I think they would incorporate, both are stories however which benefit the approach we each think would win out.
Discounting the possibility of the Revengers imploding I think your scenario works in a Tournament Of Power setting like in Dragon Ball Super, but a Royal Rumble is very different, which is my whole point that and you nerfed the hell out of the Sorcerers darn you, but as per usual we kind of went off on a whole load of other points, it was fun.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 30, 2020 18:51:59 GMT
Ok, let's address your concerns 1 by 1. 1. Teams won't work - if you've watched previous Royal Rumbles, you'll know that team-ups absolutely happen. There are even times when the 2 guys in the ring refuse to fight each other because they're friends and simply wait for the next person to come in at which point they gang up on him. It will also mean that strong contenders who can last long have a higher chance of forming their teams as they can survive long enough to team up. In which case, again, the Revengers have the advantage in that majority of the strongest characters are part of their team. It's not for certain, sure, but they have the strongest case for being able to team up. Whatever criticisms you have against Loki and Hulk being able to practice team-work is contradicted by the fact that they've actually shown team work on screen. 2. Vision can still density shift and phase despite getting electrocuted - again, please prove this. You keep claiming stuff without backing it up with proof. Vision was caught in the electricity trap that Hawkeye set. He couldn't phase through the floor to escape from it, couldn't make himself heavy enough to break through the floor to escape from it. So please provide proof. Yes, Vision can still blast with the mind stone. So? Ironman can still blast with his weapons, Thor can still blast lightning, Carol can still blast with her powers, but all of them have the advantage of being able to move. Vision being immobile and relegated to simply using his mind stone blasts would be at a severe disadvantage against the other heavy hitters in this match and would be easily knocked out of the ring. 3. Sorcerers can create shields and weapons and platforms - let me ask you: Who were the strongest enemies that they fought off with those weapons? I certainly don't recall their weapons being that effective against opponents on the strength level of Hulk or Vision or Carol. Yes they can generate chains but other than Dr. Strange, I don't recall them generating chains that can hold down extremely strong opponents. Their shields and platforms are definitely useful, and that's why I was thinking they're some of the last ones to get eliminated. But in the end they just haven't shown enough firepower to be able to push out the strongest players here, especially if teams start forming. 4. You're mentioning how IM now has his super-updated suit. I agree. But don't forget that Thor has now unlocked his full thundergod powers and also carries around Stormbreaker. You really think they can snipe beings who've been proven to be proof against almost every human-made weapon? Remember the last time Ironman blasted Thor in the face point-blank with his repulsor? Nothing happened. Thor didn't even get a rash. Obviously Ironman has gotten stronger since then but then so did Thor. 5. I didn't "spin a story". I pointed out who the most powerful players are in this match and pointed out who would win IF we didn't spin a story. Now IF you want to go ahead and spin a story WWE-Style then yeah, you could definitely make anyone a winner to fit the narrative and I'll respect your opinion on that. After all, you're the one who replied and criticized my post. All I'm doing is trying to defend my stance. I have absolutely no problem with your no-legs winner story. 1: Yes but unless the Revengers form from the very start, and even then to control Hulk enough to team up you will likely need Valkyrie and Thor to start off together, then hope they can stay until Hulk gets there, and depending on the variation on Hulk this will only go so far, Avengers Hulk may just knock Thor out because well he's kind of a dick, Hulk not Thor, Ragnarok Hulk could do it by being childish and simply throwing someone to Thor at an inopportune time, let alone them starting to brawl because Thor or Hulk get pissed at one another, and again Hulk's loyalty can easily shift with Widow turning up.
Plus people can only be eliminated once entered the ring, ranged strikers can attack and throw those powerhouses out or wait for others to gang up on them without entering meaning they also cannot be eliminated even if Thor starts throwing lightning, let alone if CM comes out before the full Revengers team can get in place to fight her off, team ups can work but not huge group efforts like you suggest long term, Loki's traitorousness also plays a factor, only a handful of people are a challenge to him, half of which are on his own team, he's more likely to eliminate or allow them to be eliminated once the few others are taken out, if he even waits that long as he may get cocky and underestimate Vision or Wanda.
2: Density shifting is tied to the mind stone, the mind stone he can use whilst being electrocuted, we saw in CW that Wanda used her powers to activate the stone to force him to phase as to release Clint from Vision's grip, so you need to prove this doesn't work, evidence shows the mind stone works even during electrocution, no evidence to suggest it doesn't, just because he doesn't do as you say in the CW scene doesn't mean it isn't possible, he also didn't blast the arrow's straight away he clearly thought about the best way out of the situation, which was eliminate the weapons rather than just escape them.
And again he is only stuck whilst being shocked, so you have to assume Thor knows this and doesn't drop his guard, and knows to grab vision from behind so he cannot be blasted, imo more likely Vision will outthink Thor and at an opportune time blast him there by freeing himself and quickly eliminating Thor if the two get into a scuffle, let alone the density shifting side of things.
3: Strange used them to fight Thanos and held his own for a fair bit against him whilst he was wielding 5 of the Infinity Stones, Strange maybe the sorcerer supreme that doesn't mean only he has effective use of the magics on hand, and again yes they wont be able to over power the likes of the Revengers but power doesn't defy gravity they can actually use their shields to build platforms for them to get elevation and then lasso the likes of Thor around the waist and hoist them into the air and swung out of the ring, if they catch Thor off guard his power wont really prevent this, only in a straight up tug of war does that help, Hulk is immune to this due to his sheer weight however.
Yes Thor & Hulk will likely smash through their shields if used to simply block their blows my point is them using them creatively to throw them off balance and creating a slide to roll them out of the ring, creative thinking is what I am using which I believe they would to, where as you are like Thor & Hulk only thinking about brute strength, what happens to those deadly shockwave attacks when mid air a platform appears just under the feet of Thor or Hulk and not their fists or hammer? they lose balance is my guess and fall which then lends itself to the slide approach I said.
4: Yes but I am not talking about it damaging Thor, I am talking about the concussive force knocking him back, Tony sent Thor flying in Avengers, but he didn't leave a mark on him, it isn't about hurting Thor but sending him flying, the faster and more powerful armour will knock Thor flying even further this time, and Thor as well as Hulk tend to like taking big jumps such as to deliver shockwave blasts, taking to the air opens Thor up for Tony's and other's big blasts which will be pointed upwards causing more distance for Thor to be sent flying, without the ability to fly with his hammers to stop himself Thor would be victim of physics, and with Tony doing the calculating the physics will likely send Thor out of the ring.
5: You absolutely did spin a story, so have I, so has anyone putting forth a perceived course of events, you story is the teams manage to all get together then start fighting and the Revengers stay amicable enough to not self destruct mid match, I spun mine based on the thinking powerhouses will take each other out leaving the stealthier competitors to last till the end, yours is based on what you perceive the powers to be, mine is based on the strategic play I think they would incorporate, both are stories however which benefit the approach we each think would win out.
Discounting the possibility of the Revengers imploding I think your scenario works in a Tournament Of Power setting like in Dragon Ball Super, but a Royal Rumble is very different, which is my whole point that and you nerfed the hell out of the Sorcerers darn you, but as per usual we kind of went off on a whole load of other points, it was fun. 1. As I previously said, I'm considering the strongest versions of the characters here, and for Hulk that means Ragnarok Hulk. That version of Hulk was smart enough to differentiate friend from foe and and engage in long conversations. He's not as dumb as you're trying to portray him. As for the limitations for grouping, you're absolutely right that it's hard to group properly when you only come to the ring one at a time. But for some reason you seem to only limit this disadvantage to the Revengers. This disadvantage is evident for ALL groups, and the Revengers are each strong enough on their own that they are actually the group that will be disadvantaged the least. So yeah sure, the Revengers won't get their full strength as a team immediately, but then this will be true for the rest of the teams. And CM being the powerhouse that she is will get tag-teamed upon as soon as she enters the ring. But unlike some of the other powerhouses here (like Thor, Hulk or Vision) she doesn't have any teammates to back her up. 2. You can't just theorize on their powers and then expect me to disprove them. You want to claim Vision's powers work in some way that isn't supported by the movies, you have to prove them. You want to claim that he can still density shift despite getting electrocuted? Then please provide video evidence of when he actually proved capable of doing this. He certainly wasn't able to do it against Hawkeye. Vision was no longer able to density shift after he got stabbed in Infinity War yet he was still able to create blasts from the Mind stone. That proves that his density shifting isn't directly dependent on the mind stone. 3. Again, you want to claim that Dr. Strange can use his powers in a certain way then please provide proof. If you think he can use his bands to start throwing around people then please provide video proof of when he actually threw people around in the movies using these bands. 4. Except as of Ragnarok, Thor is also capable of far stronger lightning blasts, ground slams and can even coat himself in lightning that auto-attacks enemies around him. Sure, IM has a chance at knocking Thor out of the ring if he hits him hard enough, but there's a greater chance of Thor hitting IM out of the ring. And if Thor isn't allowed Mjolnir or Stormbreaker to fly then neither is IM allowed to use his boosters to fly. Difference is Thor can actually power jump whereas IM is a lumbering tank without his boosters. 5. Every single scenario and power display I mentioned in my post is something that we have already seen these heroes do on screen. I can post a video clip from the movies of these heroes doing exactly what I claimed they can do, which is why I said I'm not exactly making a story as simply stating what I've seen them do in the movies. Can you claim the same? From what I can tell, you're basing your story on what you THINK they're capable of, by theorizing on how their powers work. Basically, you're arguing based on their potential whereas I'm arguing based on what they've already displayed.
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Post by dazz on Mar 30, 2020 20:22:08 GMT
1: Yes but unless the Revengers form from the very start, and even then to control Hulk enough to team up you will likely need Valkyrie and Thor to start off together, then hope they can stay until Hulk gets there, and depending on the variation on Hulk this will only go so far, Avengers Hulk may just knock Thor out because well he's kind of a dick, Hulk not Thor, Ragnarok Hulk could do it by being childish and simply throwing someone to Thor at an inopportune time, let alone them starting to brawl because Thor or Hulk get pissed at one another, and again Hulk's loyalty can easily shift with Widow turning up.
Plus people can only be eliminated once entered the ring, ranged strikers can attack and throw those powerhouses out or wait for others to gang up on them without entering meaning they also cannot be eliminated even if Thor starts throwing lightning, let alone if CM comes out before the full Revengers team can get in place to fight her off, team ups can work but not huge group efforts like you suggest long term, Loki's traitorousness also plays a factor, only a handful of people are a challenge to him, half of which are on his own team, he's more likely to eliminate or allow them to be eliminated once the few others are taken out, if he even waits that long as he may get cocky and underestimate Vision or Wanda.
2: Density shifting is tied to the mind stone, the mind stone he can use whilst being electrocuted, we saw in CW that Wanda used her powers to activate the stone to force him to phase as to release Clint from Vision's grip, so you need to prove this doesn't work, evidence shows the mind stone works even during electrocution, no evidence to suggest it doesn't, just because he doesn't do as you say in the CW scene doesn't mean it isn't possible, he also didn't blast the arrow's straight away he clearly thought about the best way out of the situation, which was eliminate the weapons rather than just escape them.
And again he is only stuck whilst being shocked, so you have to assume Thor knows this and doesn't drop his guard, and knows to grab vision from behind so he cannot be blasted, imo more likely Vision will outthink Thor and at an opportune time blast him there by freeing himself and quickly eliminating Thor if the two get into a scuffle, let alone the density shifting side of things.
3: Strange used them to fight Thanos and held his own for a fair bit against him whilst he was wielding 5 of the Infinity Stones, Strange maybe the sorcerer supreme that doesn't mean only he has effective use of the magics on hand, and again yes they wont be able to over power the likes of the Revengers but power doesn't defy gravity they can actually use their shields to build platforms for them to get elevation and then lasso the likes of Thor around the waist and hoist them into the air and swung out of the ring, if they catch Thor off guard his power wont really prevent this, only in a straight up tug of war does that help, Hulk is immune to this due to his sheer weight however.
Yes Thor & Hulk will likely smash through their shields if used to simply block their blows my point is them using them creatively to throw them off balance and creating a slide to roll them out of the ring, creative thinking is what I am using which I believe they would to, where as you are like Thor & Hulk only thinking about brute strength, what happens to those deadly shockwave attacks when mid air a platform appears just under the feet of Thor or Hulk and not their fists or hammer? they lose balance is my guess and fall which then lends itself to the slide approach I said.
4: Yes but I am not talking about it damaging Thor, I am talking about the concussive force knocking him back, Tony sent Thor flying in Avengers, but he didn't leave a mark on him, it isn't about hurting Thor but sending him flying, the faster and more powerful armour will knock Thor flying even further this time, and Thor as well as Hulk tend to like taking big jumps such as to deliver shockwave blasts, taking to the air opens Thor up for Tony's and other's big blasts which will be pointed upwards causing more distance for Thor to be sent flying, without the ability to fly with his hammers to stop himself Thor would be victim of physics, and with Tony doing the calculating the physics will likely send Thor out of the ring.
5: You absolutely did spin a story, so have I, so has anyone putting forth a perceived course of events, you story is the teams manage to all get together then start fighting and the Revengers stay amicable enough to not self destruct mid match, I spun mine based on the thinking powerhouses will take each other out leaving the stealthier competitors to last till the end, yours is based on what you perceive the powers to be, mine is based on the strategic play I think they would incorporate, both are stories however which benefit the approach we each think would win out.
Discounting the possibility of the Revengers imploding I think your scenario works in a Tournament Of Power setting like in Dragon Ball Super, but a Royal Rumble is very different, which is my whole point that and you nerfed the hell out of the Sorcerers darn you, but as per usual we kind of went off on a whole load of other points, it was fun. 1. As I previously said, I'm considering the strongest versions of the characters here, and for Hulk that means Ragnarok Hulk. That version of Hulk was smart enough to differentiate friend from foe and and engage in long conversations. He's not as dumb as you're trying to portray him. As for the limitations for grouping, you're absolutely right that it's hard to group properly when you only come to the ring one at a time. But for some reason you seem to only limit this disadvantage to the Revengers. This disadvantage is evident for ALL groups, and the Revengers are each strong enough on their own that they are actually the group that will be disadvantaged the least. So yeah sure, the Revengers won't get their full strength as a team immediately, but then this will be true for the rest of the teams. And CM being the powerhouse that she is will get tag-teamed upon as soon as she enters the ring. But unlike some of the other powerhouses here (like Thor, Hulk or Vision) she doesn't have any teammates to back her up. 2. You can't just theorize on their powers and then expect me to disprove them. You want to claim Vision's powers work in some way that isn't supported by the movies, you have to prove them. You want to claim that he can still density shift despite getting electrocuted? Then please provide video evidence of when he actually proved capable of doing this. He certainly wasn't able to do it against Hawkeye. Vision was no longer able to density shift after he got stabbed in Infinity War yet he was still able to create blasts from the Mind stone. That proves that his density shifting isn't directly dependent on the mind stone. 3. Again, you want to claim that Dr. Strange can use his powers in a certain way then please provide proof. If you think he can use his bands to start throwing around people then please provide video proof of when he actually threw people around in the movies using these bands. 4. Except as of Ragnarok, Thor is also capable of far stronger lightning blasts, ground slams and can even coat himself in lightning that auto-attacks enemies around him. Sure, IM has a chance at knocking Thor out of the ring if he hits him hard enough, but there's a greater chance of Thor hitting IM out of the ring. And if Thor isn't allowed Mjolnir or Stormbreaker to fly then neither is IM allowed to use his boosters to fly. Difference is Thor can actually power jump whereas IM is a lumbering tank without his boosters. 5. Every single scenario and power display I mentioned in my post is something that we have already seen these heroes do on screen. I can post a video clip from the movies of these heroes doing exactly what I claimed they can do, which is why I said I'm not exactly making a story as simply stating what I've seen them do in the movies. Can you claim the same? From what I can tell, you're basing your story on what you THINK they're capable of, by theorizing on how their powers work. Basically, you're arguing based on their potential whereas I'm arguing based on what they've already displayed. 1: Hulk and Thor in Ragnarok did bicker and fight each other even after their match, Hulk is still childlike and does things without thinking, it started with Hulk being playful and quickly escalated into them almost coming to blows, add in a cheering audience and adrenaline and it's extremely likely they come to blows mid match, and Hulk in Ragnarok went off book in attacking Surtur so whilst not a complete moron he is also prone to not following a game plan.
Also yes all factions would face this issue but most aren't as cock sure of themselves as the Revengers are, Valkyrie and Loki may be smart enough to hold back despite their power advantage Thor and Hulk though are too keen to fight, they wouldn't hang back but want to get in there, this is true for some of the others also, Drax for instance would likely get Bushwhackered by running in on them and being eliminated in 3 seconds, Ant Man I could see thinking he has it by going Giant only for Thor or Hulk to still be stronger and easily eliminating him also, but the majority of the others I can see being smart enough to not get involved until they had a viable plan to eliminate the likes of Thor and Hulk though.
2 - Fair point on the density shift thing in IW I had forgotten that, I thought the shifting thing was solely due to the mind stone, I can theorise why it could still be true but why his shifting was damaged but it would just be that, but on the well he didn't do it in CW thing, I think what I said makes the most sense, Vision just took the time to figure the best way out of the situation, phasing or densiting shifting himself through the floor still leaves the tasers active, so smart move was destroy them, but hey the IW thing is a good point so I will concede on this one...for now.
3- IW he was using chains and stuff he conjured to restrain Thanos as well as rip the Gauntlet off of his hands, now this isn't to say he alone could hoist Thor out, but I never said he could, I said the Sorcerers together could, and IW again showed Strange creating platforms for Spidey and others to use to attack Thanos from different angles, so they could position themselves out of range, and anyway if we are going most powerful versions then Strange wins every time right? time stone and all means he can reverse time on every elimination as well as see winning scenarios, it's a cheat but not one you ruled out in the nerfing process.
4: Again this isn't discounting Thor's power but his electricity doesn't block energy attacks does it? IM doesn't need to be close to him to nail him with blasts, and Tony's new suit can let him go toe to toe with Thanos for a spell, if like every iteration of his suit Tony also upgraded all features then the new suit is likely able to absorb and redirect even more energy as before, so Tony can use Thor's own power against him to a greater extent, and is his bleeding edge suit lumbering without the boosters? you also didn't say that they were banned, just the ability to fly and portal jump, I mean Tony flies due to his repulsors to an extent right? so what are you utterly nerfing him to just chest beams?
But again this isn't to say Tony is going to overpower or out run Thor, but Thor if he goes for one of his patented leaping attacks leaves himself wide open for Tony's attacks, and even on level ground Tony's blasts can send for off of his feet if Thor doesn't block properly, Thor is stronger, he isn't less susceptible to physics and such, he will still be flung around as he was before.
5: No because you eliminated so much other stuff that does not fit your narrative, Thor and Hulk will work together fine, Hulk wont be effected by Widow, no one else will use anything but their powers even though for a number of them their brains are their greatest weapons.
Also this isn't my narrative this is me pointing out what I feel is flaws in your narrative, partly because you again didn't actually do a rumble but a battle royal set up tisk tisk, but mostly it's because I enjoy the chat with you, I like how you think things through even though I don't agree, my narrative is that power players will take each other out leaving more middle of the pack and stealthy competitors to be in the finals, feel free to nit pick mine, I wouldn't would I meant I would like to hear your thoughts based on my scenario, god dammit I'm an idiot, I'd rather chat about this silly scenario with you than listen to the lunatic trio of Summers, Nolan and Supper rabbit on about how their opinions are universal truth in the face of actual facts disproving their claims and their overuse of kiddies and the likes ugh *shudders* this is much more enjoyable.
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