buckyv2
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Post by buckyv2 on Apr 2, 2020 2:44:27 GMT
...posting threads like The Problem With threads is that it assumes all members of that particular group behave in that manner.
Don't all people in a certain group behave differently?
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Post by Catman on Apr 2, 2020 3:41:53 GMT
Just like all cats are individuals.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Apr 2, 2020 9:06:27 GMT
Groups are just another form of linguistic labels that we use to categorize people. Because people are complex, any label is only ever going to convey a limited amount of information. Sometimes that information can be certain (if a person is a bachelor, you can be 100% sure they're not married), but other times it's inferential and associative (perhaps bachelors are more likely to be slobs). The problem is that people too easily slip between the denotations and connotations of labels, and try to make inferences part of the things that define the members of that group. This is a cognitive defect more than anything, the desire to reduce the complexity of people down to easy-to-understand categories. As is always the case, real life and facts defy such attempts. So we can say with certainty that all atheists don't believe in God, and all theists do. Beyond that, at best you can say "most atheists/theists also believe/do X." So to say " most Mormons are conservative, most atheists are liberal" is true, but that doesn't mean an atheist must be liberal or a Christian must be conservative. I think people can say "the problem with..." as long as they're either talking about something that refers to 100% of those people, or the majority; but in the latter case it's more "the problem with X who think/do Y" than just "the problem with X." So I might say "the problem with Christian fundamentalists" if I wanted to talk about the belief that Genesis is literally true, rather than just Christians in general.
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 2, 2020 14:22:11 GMT
...posting threads like The Problem With threads is that it assumes all members of that particular group behave in that manner. Don't all people in a certain group behave differently? Most people in most schools are taught that it is wrong to "generalize" about or "stereotype" an individual. For example it would not be fair to Elroy to assume that he likes iced tea simply because he is from the southern states. Apparently most people learned their lesson well, I have not seen that mistake. That does not mean that the people in the southern states do not like iced tea more than other people. They probably do and it might have something to do with the heat. A person whose job it is to stock store shelves might be wise to stock more iced tea or tea supplies than are adequate in other parts of the country. Be careful in speech though. Suppose 55 percent of people in Oklahoma report that they like "Xyz" brand of tea. That doesn't mean they like that brand more than other areas do. Suppose 70 percent of people in Montana report they like "Xyz" brand. Then people in Oklahoma "generally speaking" do not like "Xyz" more than the people in Montana. Of course depending on self reporting can be less accurate than other methods since some people sometimes misreport preferences for various reasons. Not usually, but sometimes you might find people who disallow the proper form of generalization.
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Post by mslo79 on Apr 2, 2020 15:26:52 GMT
Eva YojimboThat pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 15:46:37 GMT
Eva YojimboThat pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is. STFU.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 2, 2020 16:08:57 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is. "this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down." Name actual specific examples of this "Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative" They take it more seriously in the sense that conservative tend to be traditionalists and cultural preserverationists (that's not necessarily a good thing) and of curse that typically includes religion. The actual teachings of Jesus they generally ignore (being against welfare, blowing up the Middle East, deporting illegals). They don't actually like those teachings, they just like the idea of religion as a way to inhibit "immoral behavior" and bring about some needless sense of cultural identity and traditionalism. "that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity: Define "liberalism". If you're counting leftists, welfares statists, socialists, etc I would argue they're going by the core tennets of the teachings of Jesus(help the poor). Don't believe me?: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialismHonestly though I'm not sure why I even bother, I've refuted you're terrible arguments several times yet you keep repeating them. Go figure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 16:20:06 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is. What in the world do you mean by "Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously?"
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 2, 2020 16:25:53 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is. What in the world do you mean by "Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously?" It's basically a thinly veiled No True Scottsman
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Apr 3, 2020 3:45:53 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is. Christians who completely miss the point of Christ's teachings tend to be conservative. Jesus was a liberal if ever there was one, and plenty of liberals today are Christian. In any case, the stuff about Christians "building things up" (like all those holy wars?) and atheists tearing them down (examples?) is utter nonsense. Also, if morality is declining as the decades go on then how do you explain how violence has been on a downward trend for the last decades and centuries? How do you explain how the safest countries are the most secular? Of course, Christians, just as much as anyone else, base morality on what they feel like, given The Bible explicitly supports slavery and yet few modern Christians do.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 3, 2020 3:53:24 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. p.s. I am not saying Christians are perfect and atheists are horrible people, as we are all sinners, but you get my general point. but I don't expect atheist to see this because they are blind as anything beyond the here and now just does not compute for them. they just don't acknowledge that we are spiritual beings in a physical world. the physical world is how we come into existence but it's not our true home, Heaven is. Christians who completely miss the point of Christ's teachings tend to be conservative. Jesus was a liberal if ever there was one, and plenty of liberals today are Christian. In any case, the stuff about Christians "building things up" (like all those holy wars?) and atheists tearing them down (examples?) is utter nonsense. Also, if morality is declining as the decades go on then how do you explain how violence has been on a downward trend for the last decades and centuries? How do you explain how the safest countries are the most secular? Of course, Christians, just as much as anyone else, base morality on what they feel like, given The Bible explicitly supports slavery and yet few modern Christians do. I've actually pointed out several of those things to him several times, and yet he keeps reusing the same arguments. Trying to reason with him is a bit of a waste of time.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Apr 3, 2020 3:57:23 GMT
Christians who completely miss the point of Christ's teachings tend to be conservative. Jesus was a liberal if ever there was one, and plenty of liberals today are Christian. In any case, the stuff about Christians "building things up" (like all those holy wars?) and atheists tearing them down (examples?) is utter nonsense. Also, if morality is declining as the decades go on then how do you explain how violence has been on a downward trend for the last decades and centuries? How do you explain how the safest countries are the most secular? Of course, Christians, just as much as anyone else, base morality on what they feel like, given The Bible explicitly supports slavery and yet few modern Christians do. I've actually pointed out several of those things to him several times, and yet he keeps reusing the same arguments. Trying to reason with him is a bit of a waste of time. I realize he's a waste of time who rarely (if ever) responds to anyone, but sometimes replies are for the sake of others who are reading/lurking. Plus, I try to be polite and respond to people who responds to me unless I genuinely have nothing of interest to say.
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Post by FridayOnElmStreet on Apr 3, 2020 5:05:28 GMT
Eva Yojimbo that pretty much sums things up in that liberals basically reject Christianity and it's morals which makes them a bit suspect right off the start as morality is subjective to these kinds of people (so morality declines as the decades pass (as sin becomes more acceptable)) instead of being based around God's objective truth. because Christians know you can't just make things up as you go along because with humanities fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve, sin is appealing to us as not everything that appears good to us is actually good. but from a atheist point of view, since they don't believe in this(or just reject it), it's pretty much all about how one feels about something whether it's good or bad which gets them into trouble since they will inevitably side against God, at least in some occasions. One thing I learned in my years in and out of the Catholic church is that anyone regardless of faith can be a moral person.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 3, 2020 10:05:14 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. I see. And your basis for this assertion? Which would still make morals subjective. What is "God's objective truth"? There is no such thing, and Christians can't even agree on it. Which proves, conclusively and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christian morals are entirely subjective. Explain, then, why Christians have always changed their values according to time and place. Which means the only difference is, atheists are honest about it. Whereas Christians still insist that it's "objective" when they do the exact same thing. Your general point is that Christians are good and atheists are bad. You are trying to hedge your bets here by saying "not all", but that's just you being dishonest again. See what I mean? Again, you are assuming facts not in evidence. You have a very strong faith, this much is clear, but faith and reality are very rarely friends.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 3, 2020 16:34:03 GMT
Eva Yojimbo That pretty much plays inline with what I was saying in that Christians who take their faith a bit more seriously tend to be conservative and the atheist types tend to be liberal. like I have said before... this says a lot in that one(Christians) helps build things up while the other(atheist) tears things down. I see. And your basis for this assertion? Which would still make morals subjective. What is "God's objective truth"? There is no such thing, and Christians can't even agree on it. Which proves, conclusively and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christian morals are entirely subjective. Explain, then, why Christians have always changed their values according to time and place. Which means the only difference is, atheists are honest about it. Whereas Christians still insist that it's "objective" when they do the exact same thing. Your general point is that Christians are good and atheists are bad. You are trying to hedge your bets here by saying "not all", but that's just you being dishonest again. See what I mean? Again, you are assuming facts not in evidence. You have a very strong faith, this much is clear, but faith and reality are very rarely friends. Well said, Karl. Not that it will make even a dent in that poster's armor, but very well said. I have given up on that poster, and try to avoid reading those posts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 16:41:54 GMT
I see. And your basis for this assertion? Which would still make morals subjective. What is "God's objective truth"? There is no such thing, and Christians can't even agree on it. Which proves, conclusively and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christian morals are entirely subjective. Explain, then, why Christians have always changed their values according to time and place. Which means the only difference is, atheists are honest about it. Whereas Christians still insist that it's "objective" when they do the exact same thing. Your general point is that Christians are good and atheists are bad. You are trying to hedge your bets here by saying "not all", but that's just you being dishonest again. See what I mean? Again, you are assuming facts not in evidence. You have a very strong faith, this much is clear, but faith and reality are very rarely friends. Well said, Karl. Not that it will make even a dent in that poster's armor, but very well said. I have given up on that poster, and try to avoid reading those posts. I just hope those posts are not taken to reflect the feelings of Christianity in general. I don't know how many Christians do feel that way overall, I'm sure it is a good sized and admittedly vocal group.
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Post by thefleetsin on Apr 3, 2020 22:10:35 GMT
'universal truths' only apply to those seeking to rob others of human dignity.
i could go on and on about how self-righteous religions are experts at it.
and so i shall.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 4, 2020 2:47:19 GMT
Well said, Karl. Not that it will make even a dent in that poster's armor, but very well said. I have given up on that poster, and try to avoid reading those posts. I just hope those posts are not taken to reflect the feelings of Christianity in general. I don't know how many Christians do feel that way overall, I'm sure it is a good sized and admittedly vocal group.
I still interact with both you and Ned; people of simple faith and humane concern are okay in my book. That other poster is not. And I have had way too many of his kind in my life. Those types are more about controlling others, not helping others.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 4, 2020 3:43:24 GMT
Groups are just another form of linguistic labels that we use to categorize people. Because people are complex, any label is only ever going to convey a limited amount of information. Sometimes that information can be certain (if a person is a bachelor, you can be 100% sure they're not married), but other times it's inferential and associative (perhaps bachelors are more likely to be slobs). The problem is that people too easily slip between the denotations and connotations of labels, and try to make inferences part of the things that define the members of that group. This is a cognitive defect more than anything, the desire to reduce the complexity of people down to easy-to-understand categories. As is always the case, real life and facts defy such attempts. So we can say with certainty that all atheists don't believe in God, and all theists do. Beyond that, at best you can say "most atheists/theists also believe/do X." So to say " most Mormons are conservative, most atheists are liberal" is true, but that doesn't mean an atheist must be liberal or a Christian must be conservative. I think people can say "the problem with..." as long as they're either talking about something that refers to 100% of those people, or the majority; but in the latter case it's more "the problem with X who think/do Y" than just "the problem with X." So I might say "the problem with Christian fundamentalists" if I wanted to talk about the belief that Genesis is literally true, rather than just Christians in general. Yes, most Mormons are conservative. Fair generalization. But I would say that most atheists are not liberal. A fair amount are conservative. And I dare say most atheists are rather apolitical and are atheists not because of a rational thought process, but because of some bad experience or tragedy in their past which makes them doubt god. They're not quoting Sartre. I don't believe most Christians are conservative and most are definitely not fundamentalists. Your average American Lutheran or Methodist is not a Bible thumper. Would you say that most African-Americans who are strong members of the black church in America are conservative? Definitely not. They vote 90% Democratic. "Would you say that most African-Americans who are strong members of the black church in America are conservative? Definitely not. They vote 90% Democratic. " Yeah but they're not "true Christians". True black Christians are crazy, evangelical conservatives like Jesse Lee Peterson and Ben Carson. That's probably more or less going to be his response.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Apr 4, 2020 6:15:25 GMT
Groups are just another form of linguistic labels that we use to categorize people. Because people are complex, any label is only ever going to convey a limited amount of information. Sometimes that information can be certain (if a person is a bachelor, you can be 100% sure they're not married), but other times it's inferential and associative (perhaps bachelors are more likely to be slobs). The problem is that people too easily slip between the denotations and connotations of labels, and try to make inferences part of the things that define the members of that group. This is a cognitive defect more than anything, the desire to reduce the complexity of people down to easy-to-understand categories. As is always the case, real life and facts defy such attempts. So we can say with certainty that all atheists don't believe in God, and all theists do. Beyond that, at best you can say "most atheists/theists also believe/do X." So to say " most Mormons are conservative, most atheists are liberal" is true, but that doesn't mean an atheist must be liberal or a Christian must be conservative. I think people can say "the problem with..." as long as they're either talking about something that refers to 100% of those people, or the majority; but in the latter case it's more "the problem with X who think/do Y" than just "the problem with X." So I might say "the problem with Christian fundamentalists" if I wanted to talk about the belief that Genesis is literally true, rather than just Christians in general. Yes, most Mormons are conservative. Fair generalization. But I would say that most atheists are not liberal. A fair amount are conservative. And I dare say most atheists are rather apolitical and are atheists not because of a rational thought process, but because of some bad experience or tragedy in their past which makes them doubt god. They're not quoting Sartre. I don't believe most Christians are conservative and most are definitely not fundamentalists. Your average American Lutheran or Methodist is not a Bible thumper. Would you say that most African-Americans who are strong members of the black church in America are conservative? Definitely not. They vote 90% Democratic. I posted two links, the latter showed that 69% of atheists are/lean Democrate. Now, maybe you could argue that most Democrats aren't actually liberal, but that's a different discussion. As for why most atheists are atheists, I'm sure it varies and I'd hesitate to hazard a guess as to why "most" are that way. At least among the more thoughtful atheists I've talked to, heard, and read, what I've found is that they tend to have a mind-set similar to those of scientists, which is also similar to those of liberals (unsurprisingly, the vast majority of scientists are both atheists and liberals). Of course, I don't know if they represent a majority or if my sample size is just highly skewered towards those types of atheists. The first link I provided actually provided a breakdown of party affiliation by denomination, so you can see which denominations tend to be more conservative/liberal. It shows you're correct about historically black denominations.
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