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Post by kuatorises on Apr 3, 2020 20:27:18 GMT
Do you think Snoke was capable of thinking independently and the Emperor allowed him to be the public face of the First Order or he had no mind/soul of his own and was just a literal puppet controlled by Palpatine?
When I first saw the movie, I came out of it thinking he was just an empty shell. No mind, soul, nothing. It was all just Palpatine inside.
But as time went on, I got away from that. Palpatine's own kid had a mind of his own. He rejected his "Dad's" beliefs and ran away, got hitched, and had Rey. Plus, we know that before they were "activated" the clones in the Clone Wars, while obedient, did have personality and ability to think on their own. So, Snoke was his own thing imo. Palpatine created him and controlled - or at the very least was his master - but his own thing. A copy of Palpatine.
That makes me wonder though, was he happy being subservient to Palpatine? Was it something he did willfully or just because he knew Palpatine was more powerful and like most Dark Siders secretly wanted to kill his master and become the boss?
That actually makes me wonder if there were ever more than just the two of them that existed at once, would there be a power struggle? That could be a fun comic. I actually belong to a Facebook group of guys who create Star Wars-themed dioramas. One of them is a bunch of Palpatine action figures, from him at various stages/ages, standing around Snoke like they were all about to kill him. It was pretty awesome.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Apr 3, 2020 22:22:14 GMT
Meh. It was a bad retcon, but it is what it is. I still thought Snoke was his own being. I didn't take it as him just being a puppet. That said, I haven't put a lot of thought into it.
During this outbreak, I'm rewatching Star Wars chronologically every Saturday (except for Solo). I'll see what I think after I get to the end of that.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 3, 2020 22:27:41 GMT
The 2nd biggest reason I hate the sequel trilogy, behind only turning Luke from stoic reveal to goofy tutor. To answer the question, I now see him as bastardized life form birthed from Palpatine's DNA.
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Post by wolf359 on Apr 4, 2020 0:19:41 GMT
I myself interpret Snoke as somebody that was really a puppet created and controlled by The Emperor.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 4, 2020 2:13:00 GMT
Do you think Snoke was capable of thinking independently and the Emperor allowed him to be the public face of the First Order or he had no mind/soul of his own and was just a literal puppet controlled by Palpatine?
When I first saw the movie, I came out of it thinking he was just an empty shell. No mind, soul, nothing. It was all just Palpatine inside.
But as time went on, I got away from that. Palpatine's own kid had a mind of his own. He rejected his "Dad's" beliefs and ran away, got hitched, and had Rey. Plus, we know that before they were "activated" the clones in the Clone Wars, while obedient, did have personality and ability to think on their own. So, Snoke was his own thing imo. Palpatine created him and controlled - or at the very least was his master - but his own thing. A copy of Palpatine.
That makes me wonder though, was he happy being subservient to Palpatine? Was it something he did willfully or just because he knew Palpatine was more powerful and like most Dark Siders secretly wanted to kill his master and become the boss?
That actually makes me wonder if there were ever more than just the two of them that existed at once, would there be a power struggle? That could be a fun comic. I actually belong to a Facebook group of guys who create Star Wars-themed dioramas. One of them is a bunch of Palpatine action figures, from him at various stages/ages, standing around Snoke like they were all about to kill him. It was pretty awesome.
I guess thatâs an interesting question to ponder until itâs explained in some novel or comic (if they ever bother to explain it). At the outset of TROS they show clones of Snoke in âgrowth tanksâ. So he seems to be a composite clone for unspecified purposes. But itâs clear he was used as a puppet Darkside dictator. Itâs really tough to say whether he was an empty shell or not. The fact that he knew everything Palpatine couldâve possibly known is an argument in favor of him being an empty shell. And Palpatine tells Kylo that heâs been every voice inside of his head. And Snokeâs voice is included in that. But the thing that argues against it is I think it would be pretty difficult to do with a clone. They always have a measure of independent thought. But I honestly donât think that was the original plan for Snoke. I think he was originally intended to be a powerful Darksider who was not Sith. But he had special knowledge of all the events of the previous movies. And he was seizing on an opportunity to take over where Palpatine left off. Unfortunately, despite Snoke being a refreshingly original creation by Abrams - I donât think his backstory was ever really fleshed out. This was likely more of JJ Abrams notorious âmystery boxâ. A character with compelling questions he didnât have answers to. There was that ominous head wound on Snoke. Thatâs not something you would associate with an empty shell âpuppetâ (like, say, the Great Oz in the Wizard of Oz). There was probably some intention to make a story around that in the future. Something very important in Snokeâs past. But Snoke has become a retcon hack job twice over. |
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Apr 4, 2020 10:23:30 GMT
The way I interpret Snoke is that JJ had a fag packet. On the back of that he probably initially doodled Kylo Ren's mask and went - Yeah, cool! Then, chewing on the end of his pencil, he wrote "Darth Va-- whoops, sorry! Kylo Ren and his mysterious, shadowy leader Palp-- no, let's think - Snoke yes that will do, rule over the Galaxy until a young novice from the sand planet Tatoo-- no, no er Jakku rises to challenge them."
I think that's as fleshed out as Snoke ever was initially.
I'm still angry that we never got told why he was initially a giant but then shrunk back down to normal size đ
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Apr 4, 2020 16:58:12 GMT
But I honestly donât think that was the original plan for Snoke. I think he was originally intended to be a powerful Darksider who was not Sith. But he had special knowledge of all the events of the previous movies. And he was seizing on an opportunity to take over where Palpatine left off. That was definitely what they were originally thinking for Snoke. The TFA novelization flat out states that. I think JJ envisioned a bigger role for Snoke.
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Post by shannondegroot on Apr 4, 2020 17:28:25 GMT
Snoke's just this guy, you know ?
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 4, 2020 18:45:42 GMT
The 2nd biggest reason I hate the sequel trilogy, behind only turning Luke from stoic reveal to goofy tutor. To answer the question, I now see him as bastardized life form birthed from Palpatine's DNA. As a die hard Luke fan as a kid, I hated ROTJ Luke. He fucking sucked. Walks around all somber, "But father...." He didn't really seem to give a damn about anything but converting his father. He's a better character in every other movie because he's NOT stoic.
This is super cool though, eh? A Master Class in film making.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 4, 2020 18:46:50 GMT
The way I interpret Snoke is that JJ had a fag packet. On the back of that he probably initially doodled Kylo Ren's mask and went - Yeah, cool! Then, chewing on the end of his pencil, he wrote "Darth Va-- whoops, sorry! Kylo Ren and his mysterious, shadowy leader Palp-- no, let's think - Snoke yes that will do, rule over the Galaxy until a young novice from the sand planet Tatoo-- no, no er Jakku rises to challenge them." I think that's as fleshed out as Snoke ever was initially. I'm still angry that we never got told why he was initially a giant but then shrunk back down to normal size đ I recognize some of these words, but this doesn't appear to be English.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 4, 2020 18:55:12 GMT
Do you think Snoke was capable of thinking independently and the Emperor allowed him to be the public face of the First Order or he had no mind/soul of his own and was just a literal puppet controlled by Palpatine?
When I first saw the movie, I came out of it thinking he was just an empty shell. No mind, soul, nothing. It was all just Palpatine inside.
But as time went on, I got away from that. Palpatine's own kid had a mind of his own. He rejected his "Dad's" beliefs and ran away, got hitched, and had Rey. Plus, we know that before they were "activated" the clones in the Clone Wars, while obedient, did have personality and ability to think on their own. So, Snoke was his own thing imo. Palpatine created him and controlled - or at the very least was his master - but his own thing. A copy of Palpatine.
That makes me wonder though, was he happy being subservient to Palpatine? Was it something he did willfully or just because he knew Palpatine was more powerful and like most Dark Siders secretly wanted to kill his master and become the boss?
That actually makes me wonder if there were ever more than just the two of them that existed at once, would there be a power struggle? That could be a fun comic. I actually belong to a Facebook group of guys who create Star Wars-themed dioramas. One of them is a bunch of Palpatine action figures, from him at various stages/ages, standing around Snoke like they were all about to kill him. It was pretty awesome.
I guess thatâs an interesting question to ponder until itâs explained in some novel or comic (if they ever bother to explain it). At the outset of TROS they show clones of Snoke in âgrowth tanksâ. So he seems to be a composite clone for unspecified purposes. But itâs clear he was used as a puppet Darkside dictator. Itâs really tough to say whether he was an empty shell or not. The fact that he knew everything Palpatine couldâve possibly known is an argument in favor of him being an empty shell. And Palpatine tells Kylo that heâs been every voice inside of his head. And Snokeâs voice is included in that. But the thing that argues against it is I think it would be pretty difficult to do with a clone. They always have a measure of independent thought. But I honestly donât think that was the original plan for Snoke. I think he was originally intended to be a powerful Darksider who was not Sith. But he had special knowledge of all the events of the previous movies. And he was seizing on an opportunity to take over where Palpatine left off.
Unfortunately, despite Snoke being a refreshingly original creation by Abrams - I donât think his backstory was ever really fleshed out. This was likely more of JJ Abrams notorious âmystery boxâ. A character with compelling questions he didnât have answers to.
There was that ominous head wound on Snoke. Thatâs not something you would associate with an empty shell âpuppetâ (like, say, the Great Oz in the Wizard of Oz). There was probably some intention to make a story around that in the future. Something very important in Snokeâs past. But Snoke has become a retcon hack job twice over. That's on Rian Johnson, not Abrams.
The scar could have just been a result of the cloning process. A mutation, defect, or just damage considering bodies don't seem to be able to house Palpatine's evil without deteriorating.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 4, 2020 18:58:06 GMT
I myself interpret Snoke as somebody that was really a puppet created and controlled by The Emperor. How would you explain Rey's dad having a mind of his own then?
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 4, 2020 19:07:37 GMT
I think a little of both: puppet and independent thinker. I think, as a clone, Snoke had programming he had to follow, but he was his own person in doing it. Kinda like the Fett clones.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 4, 2020 19:10:48 GMT
I myself interpret Snoke as somebody that was really a puppet created and controlled by The Emperor. How would you explain Rey's dad having a mind of his own then? Didn't they describe him as a faulty clone. I think he was more like Boba to Jango than the clone troopers.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Apr 4, 2020 19:22:36 GMT
The way I interpret Snoke is that JJ had a fag packet. On the back of that he probably initially doodled Kylo Ren's mask and went - Yeah, cool! Then, chewing on the end of his pencil, he wrote "Darth Va-- whoops, sorry! Kylo Ren and his mysterious, shadowy leader Palp-- no, let's think - Snoke yes that will do, rule over the Galaxy until a young novice from the sand planet Tatoo-- no, no er Jakku rises to challenge them." I think that's as fleshed out as Snoke ever was initially. I'm still angry that we never got told why he was initially a giant but then shrunk back down to normal size đ I recognize some of these words, but this doesn't appear to be English. mmm... What is that you require assistance in understanding mon ami? |
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Apr 4, 2020 19:30:27 GMT
That's on Rian Johnson, not Abrams. I'd say a little of both. Johnson effed it up by killing Snoke off. Abrams made the dumb decision to just have Snoke be a puppet of Palps.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 5, 2020 1:15:33 GMT
That's on Rian Johnson, not Abrams. I'd say a little of both. Johnson effed it up by killing Snoke off. Abrams made the dumb decision to just have Snoke be a puppet of Palps. Exactly. In addition, Abrams and Johnson had communication with each other over the direction of the saga going forward from TFA. Johnson said Abrams gave him little to nothing, and green-lighted Rian doing his own thing. Also, Kathleen Kennedy was unconcerned about holding Johnson and Abrams to any storyline continuity between the two. She gave Rian a green light to do whatever he wanted to do. (Only wanting Johnson to get Luke out of the way as a mentor and protagonist). And he chose to kill Snoke off rather than bother with trying to create a backstory and devote the least amount of screen time to it. So yeah, you nailed it. In fact thereâs blame to go around for all 3 of them where Snoke is concerned. |
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 5, 2020 1:21:05 GMT
I guess thatâs an interesting question to ponder until itâs explained in some novel or comic (if they ever bother to explain it). At the outset of TROS they show clones of Snoke in âgrowth tanksâ. So he seems to be a composite clone for unspecified purposes. But itâs clear he was used as a puppet Darkside dictator. Itâs really tough to say whether he was an empty shell or not. The fact that he knew everything Palpatine couldâve possibly known is an argument in favor of him being an empty shell. And Palpatine tells Kylo that heâs been every voice inside of his head. And Snokeâs voice is included in that. But the thing that argues against it is I think it would be pretty difficult to do with a clone. They always have a measure of independent thought. But I honestly donât think that was the original plan for Snoke. I think he was originally intended to be a powerful Darksider who was not Sith. But he had special knowledge of all the events of the previous movies. And he was seizing on an opportunity to take over where Palpatine left off.
Unfortunately, despite Snoke being a refreshingly original creation by Abrams - I donât think his backstory was ever really fleshed out. This was likely more of JJ Abrams notorious âmystery boxâ. A character with compelling questions he didnât have answers to.
There was that ominous head wound on Snoke. Thatâs not something you would associate with an empty shell âpuppetâ (like, say, the Great Oz in the Wizard of Oz). There was probably some intention to make a story around that in the future. Something very important in Snokeâs past. But Snoke has become a retcon hack job twice over. That's on Rian Johnson, not Abrams.
The scar could have just been a result of the cloning process. A mutation, defect, or just damage considering bodies don't seem to be able to house Palpatine's evil without deteriorating.Â
The only problem is that at this stage of the writing Snoke was not a clone. And Palpatine was not going to be a character/antagonist in episode 9. So Johnson had no prompts to come up with something like that, in that creative direction. He was working with a totally blank slate. |
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 5, 2020 2:18:27 GMT
That's on Rian Johnson, not Abrams. I'd say a little of both. Johnson effed it up by killing Snoke off. Abrams made the dumb decision to just have Snoke be a puppet of Palps. No Abrams did what he could with the hand he was dealt. There is no coming back from killing the leader of the bad guys in the middle of the 2nd movie of a trilogy. Abrams HAD TO do that. Snoke was gone and the franchise was hell-bent on redeeming Ren.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Apr 5, 2020 22:49:20 GMT
I'd say a little of both. Johnson effed it up by killing Snoke off. Abrams made the dumb decision to just have Snoke be a puppet of Palps. No Abrams did what he could with the hand he was dealt. There is no coming back from killing the leader of the bad guys in the middle of the 2nd movie of a trilogy. Abrams HAD TO do that. Snoke was gone and the franchise was hell-bent on redeeming Ren. Bringing back Palps wasn't the only option. Lol.
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