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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 7, 2020 10:27:09 GMT
I have always been a fan of science. Many people my age were and still are. At the age of six I followed the Mercury Space Prgram, through the Gemini Space program, to the Apollo Program that landed men on the moon weeks before my fourteenth birthday. Science was a big deal all over throughout my formative years.
I suspect that I was more interested in science than many others though. For one thing I found it very easy. I could solve problems in physics long before any classes required it.
Much later in life though I began to question much science. I wondered how it could be real. There are some rather absurd claims. I noticed that the people who accepted the absurd claims were remarkably stupid.
Although I still like solving real problems in science and math I probably no longer count as a "big fan."
Now I spend more time on philosophical questions like what is "right," what is "wrong," where am I going as an individual, where is humanity is going as a group, and basically why?
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Post by progressiveelement on Apr 7, 2020 14:13:08 GMT
As an Air Force brat, I was in a better position than most to say science was real.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Apr 7, 2020 14:58:57 GMT
The great thing about science is that it is true, whether you believe it or not.
"Doc, I can't stop singing, 'What's New Pussycat'." "You have Tom Jones syndrome" "Is that common?"
"It's not unusual"
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Post by politicidal on Apr 7, 2020 15:25:02 GMT
"I wondered how it could be real". Perform an experiment and find out.
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 7, 2020 15:25:34 GMT
The great thing about science is that it is true, whether you believe it or not.
"Doc, I can't stop singing, 'What's New Pussycat'." "You have Tom Jones syndrome" "Is that common?"
"It's not unusual"
Who told you that?
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 7, 2020 15:26:23 GMT
"I wondered how it could be real". Perform an experiment and find out. Not possible.
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Post by Zos on Apr 7, 2020 15:26:39 GMT
If you choose to adopt a faith based life then fine, but saying science isn't "real" is frankly just ignorant and something America is suffering way to much of.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 7, 2020 15:27:09 GMT
If you choose to adopt a faith based life then fine, but saying science isn't "real" is frankly just ignorant and something America is suffering way to much of. This.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 7, 2020 15:27:25 GMT
"I wondered how it could be real". Perform an experiment and find out. Not possible. Convenient.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Apr 7, 2020 15:47:30 GMT
The great thing about science is that it is true, whether you believe it or not.
Who told you that? It's something I learned from empirical observation(s). The quote, however, I attribute to Neil deGrasse Tyson. To get two whales in a car, start in Liverpool and drive about 15 miles south.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 7, 2020 16:04:02 GMT
The great thing about science is that it is true, whether you believe it or not.
"Doc, I can't stop singing, 'What's New Pussycat'." "You have Tom Jones syndrome" "Is that common?"
"It's not unusual"
Sort of. Science does at least occasionally need to be revised when new, more inaccurate information comes about. There's a reason modern biologists don't really study Origin of Species, Darwin was very limited with the information and technology that an 18th century Brit had to work with at the time, particularly in regards to genetics. Though I would argue at the very least science gives us the most accurate, objective view of reality possible and by proxy the best way to perceive reality.
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 7, 2020 16:51:08 GMT
You conduct an experiment proving the twin paradox then.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 7, 2020 16:56:25 GMT
You conduct an experiment proving the twin paradox then. I accept science so I'm not inclined.
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 7, 2020 17:09:21 GMT
If you choose to adopt a faith based life then fine, but saying science isn't "real" is frankly just ignorant and something America is suffering way to much of. Oh, it is real enough. The Ideal, the Real, and No-True-Scotsman
It happens often that when people "debate" religion they have something against religion that they believe "science" can solve. The so called "Creationism vs. Evolution" debate tends to pit science against religion as if religion is the problem everywhere because it always fails science. Few people have paid much attention to that particular debate lately, but the dynamic does tend to appear in the political arena. The problem with "science" is that when some people join the fray their arguments are based on an idealized "science" rather that how it plays out in reality. They claim, "There is no faith in science, the focus is entirely on the results of real world testing." Obviously that is false. Of course there is an "ideal" that "science" always depends on real world testing, but much that passes for science in the real world in no way measures up to that ideal. It may be supposed that some people assume there is some "clean up crew" that catches all the errors "science" ever makes. Bountiful evidence however indicates that crew fails very much. The certainty of science ceteris paribus is rather often mistakenly attributed to statistical analysis. Medicine for example is far more statistical analysis than sceince ceteris paribus. The national debt and the high cost of health care indicate the voters are not exercising good science however much any party thinks it does. The reality is far short of the ideal. By some analysis Trump shouldn't be president if science were making itself clear. This difference between the ideal and the real often has some debaters citing the No-True-Scotsman "fallacy." Here is a description of that terminology. Notice the problem there is the same as here. There is an "ideal" version of a "Scotsman" and a "real" one that doesn't measure up. "Ideal" science might be godlike, but in reality scientists are human beings. As with many so called "fallacies" they are only a failure of logic in some circumstances and not in others. Sometimes it makes sense to appeal to popular opinion ( ad populum), sometimes it makes sense to notice a speaker's flaws ( ad hominem) and so on. Providing no other evidence is ignored and no faults misapplied both those can be fine. Here too it can make sense to discuss what science "ought" to be in some ideal should that topic arise. It could be a horrendous failure of logic though to assume that ideal presents itself in reality. It might be fair then to say that the defenders of science often commit the No-True-Scotsman "fallacy" as if "scientists" have no faith. - A quick note on formal debate
Discussing any selection of people ideal or real is fine, especially if it is a real group you have studied and wish to show your findings. Formal debate avoids the confusion by setting the definition of a "Scotsman" to whatever fits the immediate needs of the meeting, and is decided by mutual arbitrary agreement before the presentation of any arguments about those particular Scotsman. It is not illogical to define your terms. It is illogical not to. Of course you need to secure cooperation of the opposing team to discuss your particular definition.
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 7, 2020 17:09:58 GMT
You conduct an experiment proving the twin paradox then. I accept science so I'm not inclined. Convenient.
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Post by Zos on Apr 7, 2020 17:27:57 GMT
If you choose to adopt a faith based life then fine, but saying science isn't "real" is frankly just ignorant and something America is suffering way to much of. Oh, it is real enough. The Ideal, the Real, and No-True-Scotsman
It happens often that when people "debate" religion they have something against religion that they believe "science" can solve. The so called "Creationism vs. Evolution" debate tends to pit science against religion as if religion is the problem everywhere because it always fails science. Few people have paid much attention to that particular debate lately, but the dynamic does tend to appear in the political arena. The problem with "science" is that when some people join the fray their arguments are based on an idealized "science" rather that how it plays out in reality. They claim, "There is no faith in science, the focus is entirely on the results of real world testing." Obviously that is false. Of course there is an "ideal" that "science" always depends on real world testing, but much that passes for science in the real world in no way measures up to that ideal. It may be supposed that some people assume there is some "clean up crew" that catches all the errors "science" ever makes. Bountiful evidence however indicates that crew fails very much. The certainty of science ceteris paribus is rather often mistakenly attributed to statistical analysis. Medicine for example is far more statistical analysis than sceince ceteris paribus. The national debt and the high cost of health care indicate the voters are not exercising good science however much any party thinks it does. The reality is far short of the ideal. By some analysis Trump shouldn't be president if science were making itself clear. This difference between the ideal and the real often has some debaters citing the No-True-Scotsman "fallacy." Here is a description of that terminology. Notice the problem there is the same as here. There is an "ideal" version of a "Scotsman" and a "real" one that doesn't measure up. "Ideal" science might be godlike, but in reality scientists are human beings. As with many so called "fallacies" they are only a failure of logic in some circumstances and not in others. Sometimes it makes sense to appeal to popular opinion ( ad populum), sometimes it makes sense to notice a speaker's flaws ( ad hominem) and so on. Providing no other evidence is ignored and no faults misapplied both those can be fine. Here too it can make sense to discuss what science "ought" to be in some ideal should that topic arise. It could be a horrendous failure of logic though to assume that ideal presents itself in reality. It might be fair then to say that the defenders of science often commit the No-True-Scotsman "fallacy" as if "scientists" have no faith. - A quick note on formal debate
Discussing any selection of people ideal or real is fine, especially if it is a real group you have studied and wish to show your findings. Formal debate avoids the confusion by setting the definition of a "Scotsman" to whatever fits the immediate needs of the meeting, and is decided by mutual arbitrary agreement before the presentation of any arguments about those particular Scotsman. It is not illogical to define your terms. It is illogical not to. Of course you need to secure cooperation of the opposing team to discuss your particular definition. As I said, geezer, if it makes you happy putting your life in the hands of the supernatural then more power to you. I won't debate someone who does that though as that very path shows them incapable of real rational thought. Good luck in your journey, though, ignorance can be bliss. a
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 7, 2020 17:33:22 GMT
If you choose to adopt a faith based life then fine, but saying science isn't "real" is frankly just ignorant and something America is suffering way to much of. Formal debate avoids the confusion by setting the definition of a "Scotsman" to whatever fits the immediate needs of the meeting, and is decided by mutual arbitrary agreement before the presentation of any arguments about those particular Scotsman. It is not illogical to define your terms. It is illogical not to. Of course you need to secure cooperation of the opposing team to discuss your particular definition. "All definitions are abitrary" - Arlon10, someone who has previously insisted that moreover he cannot meaningfully define either religion or science, real or true.
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Post by progressiveelement on Apr 7, 2020 17:52:26 GMT
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Apr 7, 2020 17:58:39 GMT
"I wondered how it could be real". Perform an experiment and find out. Spot on.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Apr 7, 2020 17:59:31 GMT
"I wondered how it could be real". Perform an experiment and find out. Not possible. Bless your heart.
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