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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 8, 2020 22:32:45 GMT
Random thought - if a human is turned into a vampire inside a home where a resident still lives, but they haven't been "invited", what would happen? I'm trying to think if we'd seen anyone turned inside someone's house on Buffy or Angel and none come to mind, but I might be overlooking an example. I imagine they aren't like, expelled from the house or something; although that would be a cool development.
But then conversely, assuming they could just walk around freely, if they left the house they were sired in, but hadn't been invited, could they re-enter?
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macpro75
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Post by macpro75 on Apr 17, 2020 8:28:02 GMT
Random thought - if a human is turned into a vampire inside a home where a resident still lives, but they haven't been "invited", what would happen? I'm trying to think if we'd seen anyone turned inside someone's house on Buffy or Angel and none come to mind, but I might be overlooking an example. I imagine they aren't like, expelled from the house or something; although that would be a cool development. But then conversely, assuming they could just walk around freely, if they left the house they were sired in, but hadn't been invited, could they re-enter? 🤔Ooooh... interesting!!! I will keep an eye out, but I cannot recall this. The closest I can recall was when that vamp turned the Watcher's Council guy in the Cruciamentum, but I believe that that was in an abandoned house.... Just writing that in light of your question makes me wonder exactly what constitutes "abandonment" in terms of the show's mythology, although I guess S7 kind of covered that pretty well. In the same vein, what about if someone moves? Or has multiple homes? Does permission from a person carry forward if they move? Does a person who admits a vampire into one home automatically grant access to, say, that person's "summer home"? Regarding your question as well as my own lesser ones, I think that permission is granted to a specific location and that anyone sired inside would be able to leave but NOT to return without an invitation. Perhaps the lack of an invite would affect the newly sired vamp similar to sunlight or holy water creating a painful, impossible to ignore situation that forces the vamp out. If that is the case, I would imagine that if the vampire didn't leave he or she might eventually get poofed in a similar way.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 17, 2020 15:21:34 GMT
Random thought - if a human is turned into a vampire inside a home where a resident still lives, but they haven't been "invited", what would happen? I'm trying to think if we'd seen anyone turned inside someone's house on Buffy or Angel and none come to mind, but I might be overlooking an example. I imagine they aren't like, expelled from the house or something; although that would be a cool development. But then conversely, assuming they could just walk around freely, if they left the house they were sired in, but hadn't been invited, could they re-enter? 🤔Ooooh... interesting!!! I will keep an eye out, but I cannot recall this. The closest I can recall was when that vamp turned the Watcher's Council guy in the Cruciamentum, but I believe that that was in an abandoned house.... Just writing that in light of your question makes me wonder exactly what constitutes "abandonment" in terms of the show's mythology, although I guess S7 kind of covered that pretty well. In the same vein, what about if someone moves? Or has multiple homes? Does permission from a person carry forward if they move? Does a person who admits a vampire into one home automatically grant access to, say, that person's "summer home"? Regarding your question as well as my own lesser ones, I think that permission is granted to a specific location and that anyone sired inside would be able to leave but NOT to return without an invitation. Perhaps the lack of an invite would affect the newly sired vamp similar to sunlight or holy water creating a painful, impossible to ignore situation that forces the vamp out. If that is the case, I would imagine that if the vampire didn't leave he or she might eventually get poofed in a similar way. The second home question is an interesting one, and effectively ties in with something I wondered just the other day re-watching "Blood Money;" where Angel visits Anne at the teen shelter. He comments about the bed she has setup in her office and she comments about how she's often there so late that it doesn't pay for her to go home and she just crashes there. Whenever I watch that episode, it always makes me think of the comment the occult book store owner made to Angel back in the 50s, that he had half a mind to setup his bedroll in the store to keep vampires out; and I always wonder if Anne's explanation of working late is just an excuse she uses for having a bed there; and if she actually does it to make add the home protection against vampires from entering. She would know all about them and want to prevent against them having access to the teens; and the center may otherwise be considered a public accommodation, like a motel room. Would Anne, a permanent employee at the shelter, setting up a bed and frequently using it, combined with her regular presence be enough to invoke the protection? Who know, but the occult shop owner seemed to think so; and the two situations seemed to be comparable. But it would be the same as having a second home, since with either of those examples the person in question would still have another place they consider their residence. One thing that arguably shoots this theory all to hell is, looking back at "Blood Money," when Angel goes to the teen center under the pretense of dropping off donations, he's standing in the middle of the building, rather than at the door requiring a invitation. Since I didn't go back to check if she said something during their first meeting that might be construed as an invite, there's maybe a slim possibility there; or one of the teens staying there might have invited him off screen. The latter possibility of course depends on which version of the rules to invite a vampire in you follow - the one episode where Buffy says only a person living in a house can invite a vampire in; or all of the other examples where anyone can invite a vampire in, regardless of whether or not they actually live there. And if it can be anyone, it kind of weakens the protection Anne was trying to extend, if one of the teens not in the know might unwittingly invite a vampire into the center - which one of them may have done with Angel.
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Apr 19, 2020 20:37:36 GMT
doesn't Spike or Angel say to Buffy that they didn't require an invite to the school since it's a public place?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 19, 2020 20:56:58 GMT
doesn't Spike or Angel say to Buffy that they didn't require an invite to the school since it's a public place? There was the scene with Angelus quoting the school moto printed near the entrance to Jennie, that was in Latin and translated to Enter All Who Seek Knowledge, or something to that effect; though it's often noted how this was an unnecessary inclusion, since being a public place meant any vampire could come and go as they please. Not sure what it has to do with the main topic?
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Apr 19, 2020 21:08:55 GMT
With the main topic nothing, but with the comment about angel in the group home. That, too, is a public place - therefore no invitation necessary
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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 19, 2020 21:37:03 GMT
With the main topic nothing, but with the comment about angel in the group home. That, too, is a public place - therefore no invitation necessary Actually, my entire point was to question whether that would necessarily be considered a public place, especially if Anne kept a bed there; and whether that might have been the real reason she did, since she knew that vampires existed and might be a danger to her kids. The teen center would have been more like a motel than a school, it had beds and facilities to live there, but the nature of that residency was temporary - except for Anne, who arguably as an employee/manager/director of the facility had a more permanent connection to it. The occult shop owner in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been," suggested that he could put a bed (bedroll) in his shop to keep vampires out; which may have been BS, but then again, maybe not. While motels were considered public accommodations, Fred would later be able to set herself up in one of the rooms at the Hyperion after it became the offices of AI; and Angel required an invitation in order to enter her room. Now, would that have applied back when the Hyperion was still a hotel? Especially for those occupants who were staying as permanent residents? Who knows. And then there's college dorms; even though the college itself was open to the public, the individual dorm rooms appeared to have their own separate protection from vampires entering. Angel required Buffy's invitation; and Willow unwittingly invited Spike in right after he escaped from the Initiative.
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macpro75
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Post by macpro75 on Apr 22, 2020 21:49:10 GMT
doesn't Spike or Angel say to Buffy that they didn't require an invite to the school since it's a public place? There was the scene with Angelus quoting the school moto printed near the entrance to Jennie, that was in Latin and translated to Enter All Who Seek Knowledge, or something to that effect; though it's often noted how this was an unnecessary inclusion, since being a public place meant any vampire could come and go as they please. Not sure what it has to do with the main topic? Sidestepping the main topic entirely, I have some thoughts on Passion and that weird conversation between Angelus and Jenny Calendar: I've always wondered WHY that dialogue occurred in the first place. Vampires seem to have always had free run of the school and it sure seems to be public or at a minimum, not private. Someone, I believe that it was possibly stargazer1682 or @loui_b452, wrote that they believed that Jenny had made a spell to ward off vampires from the school or at least Jenny's computer room. That is the only explanation I've seen that seems to explain that conversation. Anyone remember this theory? Or perhaps have a better one? CC mmexis
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macpro75
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Post by macpro75 on Apr 22, 2020 23:41:13 GMT
With the main topic nothing, but with the comment about angel in the group home. That, too, is a public place - therefore no invitation necessary Actually, my entire point was to question whether that would necessarily be considered a public place, especially if Anne kept a bed there; and whether that might have been the real reason she did, since she knew that vampires existed and might be a danger to her kids. The teen center would have been more like a motel than a school, it had beds and facilities to live there, but the nature of that residency was temporary - except for Anne, who arguably as an employee/manager/director of the facility had a more permanent connection to it. The occult shop owner in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been," suggested that he could put a bed (bedroll) in his shop to keep vampires out; which may have been BS, but then again, maybe not. While motels were considered public accommodations, Fred would later be able to set herself up in one of the rooms at the Hyperion after it became the offices of AI; and Angel required an invitation in order to enter her room. Now, would that have applied back when the Hyperion was still a hotel? Especially for those occupants who were staying as permanent residents? Who knows. And then there's college dorms; even though the college itself was open to the public, the individual dorm rooms appeared to have their own separate protection from vampires entering. Angel required Buffy's invitation; and Willow unwittingly invited Spike in right after he escaped from the Initiative. I just saw Consequences and thought this an apropos item to add to the mix: In Consequences, Angel enters Faith's motel room and knocks her out with a baseball bat thereby saving Xander (maybe). This seems to go against your hypothesis, somewhat, as at that time Faith was staying there for the foreseeable future. Of course, perhaps the occupying human's INTENT has more to do with creating a private/no-vampire space. By this I mean that the argument could be made that the shopkeeper and Anne each INTEND to stay at their respective beds for the foreseeable future while Faith likely has no particular intent to remain in Sunnyhell longer than it suits her purposes (initially for self-protection/hiding from Kakistos and later because she was enjoying slayage in Sunnydale). Thoughts? CC mmexis
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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 23, 2020 0:15:46 GMT
Actually, my entire point was to question whether that would necessarily be considered a public place, especially if Anne kept a bed there; and whether that might have been the real reason she did, since she knew that vampires existed and might be a danger to her kids. The teen center would have been more like a motel than a school, it had beds and facilities to live there, but the nature of that residency was temporary - except for Anne, who arguably as an employee/manager/director of the facility had a more permanent connection to it. The occult shop owner in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been," suggested that he could put a bed (bedroll) in his shop to keep vampires out; which may have been BS, but then again, maybe not. While motels were considered public accommodations, Fred would later be able to set herself up in one of the rooms at the Hyperion after it became the offices of AI; and Angel required an invitation in order to enter her room. Now, would that have applied back when the Hyperion was still a hotel? Especially for those occupants who were staying as permanent residents? Who knows. And then there's college dorms; even though the college itself was open to the public, the individual dorm rooms appeared to have their own separate protection from vampires entering. Angel required Buffy's invitation; and Willow unwittingly invited Spike in right after he escaped from the Initiative. I just saw Consequences and thought this an apropos item to add to the mix: In Consequences, Angel enters Faith's motel room and knocks her out with a baseball bat thereby saving Xander (maybe). This seems to go against your hypothesis, somewhat, as at that time Faith was staying there for the foreseeable future. Of course, perhaps the occupying human's INTENT has more to do with creating a private/no-vampire space. By this I mean that the argument could be made that the shopkeeper and Anne each INTEND to stay at their respective beds for the foreseeable future while Faith likely has no particular intent to remain in Sunnyhell longer than it suits her purposes (initially for self-protection/hiding from Kakistos and later because she was enjoying slayage in Sunnydale). Thoughts? CC mmexis This is further expounded on in Angel when Darla shows up; after she leaves Wolfram and Hart, AI tracks her down to a motel, which Angel and Gunn check out. She's not there and Gunn is surprised when Angel enters. Angel explains that it's a public accommodation, she doesn't truly live there. There's a debate that could be had though how far that extends and what's considered public accommodation and where private residence begins. And an example I offered in an earlier reply was the Hyperion. I don't think they dug too deep with it during "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been," when the building was still a functioning hotel, but later after AI has setup shop there and Fred comes back to LA with them, Fred takes up in one of the rooms. When Angel comes back from his Buffy-Grieving sabbatical, he goes to visit Fred and requires her invitation to enter the room; a room which isn't even a suite, in a building he kind of owns or leases or whatever. There's also the dorm situation; where strictly speaking, conventionally, dorm assignments can change from year to year or even, I think, from semester to semester. They're part of a public space and they're entirely temporary accommodation, because the students aren't going to be staying there for more than a few months at a time, but they well established in season 4 of Buffy that vampires do need an invitation to enter an individual dorm. Now where does a teen center fall along the spectrum between a college dorm and a motel; or for that matter contrast to Anne keeping a bed in her office, versus Fred's room being considered it's own residence where Angel is concerned? Then there's the occult shop owner in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" suggesting he could put his own bedroll down to keep vampires out. He was ever coming from a place of knowledge about how that works or talking out of his ass with some wishful thinking.
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macpro75
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Post by macpro75 on Apr 23, 2020 0:42:54 GMT
I just saw Consequences and thought this an apropos item to add to the mix: In Consequences, Angel enters Faith's motel room and knocks her out with a baseball bat thereby saving Xander (maybe). This seems to go against your hypothesis, somewhat, as at that time Faith was staying there for the foreseeable future. Of course, perhaps the occupying human's INTENT has more to do with creating a private/no-vampire space. By this I mean that the argument could be made that the shopkeeper and Anne each INTEND to stay at their respective beds for the foreseeable future while Faith likely has no particular intent to remain in Sunnyhell longer than it suits her purposes (initially for self-protection/hiding from Kakistos and later because she was enjoying slayage in Sunnydale). Thoughts? CC mmexis This is further expounded on in Angel when Darla shows up; after she leaves Wolfram and Hart, AI tracks her down to a motel, which Angel and Gunn check out. She's not there and Gunn is surprised when Angel enters. Angel explains that it's a public accommodation, she doesn't truly live there. There's a debate that could be had though how far that extends and what's considered public accommodation and where private residence begins. And an example I offered in an earlier reply was the Hyperion. I don't think they dug too deep with it during "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been," when the building was still a functioning hotel, but later after AI has setup shop there and Fred comes back to LA with them, Fred takes up in one of the rooms. When Angel comes back from his Buffy-Grieving sabbatical, he goes to visit Fred and requires her invitation to enter the room; a room which isn't even a suite, in a building he kind of owns or leases or whatever. There's also the dorm situation; where strictly speaking, conventionally, dorm assignments can change from year to year or even, I think, from semester to semester. They're part of a public space and they're entirely temporary accommodation, because the students aren't going to be staying there for more than a few months at a time, but they well established in season 4 of Buffy that vampires do need an invitation to enter an individual dorm. Now where does a teen center fall along the spectrum between a college dorm and a motel; or for that matter contrast to Anne keeping a bed in her office, versus Fred's room being considered it's own residence where Angel is concerned? Then there's the occult shop owner in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" suggesting he could put his own bedroll down to keep vampires out. He was ever coming from a place of knowledge about how that works or talking out of his ass with some wishful thinking. An argument might be made that a vampire's own perception of a human's residence could possibly effect whether or not the vampire can enter. Angel, for instance, was unable to enter Fred's room and yet could enter Kate's. IIRC, that was ascribed, in universe, to a higher power, was it not? I think that some posters at the time argued that it was due to Kate being on the cusp of death. As an aside, I realize that my AtS memory is horribly faded. Hopefully we'll keep binging the series and add in Angel when the time comes.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 23, 2020 1:25:58 GMT
This is further expounded on in Angel when Darla shows up; after she leaves Wolfram and Hart, AI tracks her down to a motel, which Angel and Gunn check out. She's not there and Gunn is surprised when Angel enters. Angel explains that it's a public accommodation, she doesn't truly live there. There's a debate that could be had though how far that extends and what's considered public accommodation and where private residence begins. And an example I offered in an earlier reply was the Hyperion. I don't think they dug too deep with it during "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been," when the building was still a functioning hotel, but later after AI has setup shop there and Fred comes back to LA with them, Fred takes up in one of the rooms. When Angel comes back from his Buffy-Grieving sabbatical, he goes to visit Fred and requires her invitation to enter the room; a room which isn't even a suite, in a building he kind of owns or leases or whatever. There's also the dorm situation; where strictly speaking, conventionally, dorm assignments can change from year to year or even, I think, from semester to semester. They're part of a public space and they're entirely temporary accommodation, because the students aren't going to be staying there for more than a few months at a time, but they well established in season 4 of Buffy that vampires do need an invitation to enter an individual dorm. Now where does a teen center fall along the spectrum between a college dorm and a motel; or for that matter contrast to Anne keeping a bed in her office, versus Fred's room being considered it's own residence where Angel is concerned? Then there's the occult shop owner in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" suggesting he could put his own bedroll down to keep vampires out. He was ever coming from a place of knowledge about how that works or talking out of his ass with some wishful thinking. An argument might be made that a vampire's own perception of a human's residence could possibly effect whether or not the vampire can enter. Angel, for instance, was unable to enter Fred's room and yet could enter Kate's. IIRC, that was ascribed, in universe, to a higher power, was it not? I think that some posters at the time argued that it was due to Kate being on the cusp of death. As an aside, I realize that my AtS memory is horribly faded. Hopefully we'll keep binging the series and add in Angel when the time comes. He also couldn't save Kate's father, because he wouldn't invite Angel in before he was attacked; and could only enter as soon as he died. There was another time when they went to investigate the apartment of someone on life support and Angel was basically leaning against the invisible barrier at the threshold; eventually falling through it all of a sudden and they realized the guy was "no longer on the critical list". With Kate, a theory was put out, that I'm not sure if it was confirmed or not, that the reason Angel was able to enter her apartment to save her, was that she became the fulfillment of the second chance Angel had previously earned while trying to save Darla.
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