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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Apr 17, 2020 1:45:33 GMT
Who has ever been thrown out of a HOF?
In case he hasn't already been mentioned, Alan Eagleson was thrown out of the Hockey HOF.
From Wiki:
In 1989, Alan Eagleson, a longtime executive director of the National Hockey League Players Association, was inducted as a builder. He resigned nine years later from the Hall after pleading guilty to mail fraud and embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars from the National Hockey League Players' Association pension funds.[71] His resignation came six days before a vote was scheduled to determine if he should be expelled from the Hall.[72] Originally, the Hall of Fame was not going to become involved in the issue, but was forced to act when dozens of inductees, including Bobby Orr, Ted Lindsay and Brad Park, campaigned for Eagleson's expulsion, even threatening to renounce their membership if he was not removed. He became the first member of a sports hall of fame in North America to resign.[73]
I did forget Eagleson. That was richly deserved
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 17, 2020 12:44:44 GMT
The 4 Horseman were inducted into the HOF - however Ole was left out. I wonder if it's because he's just a tad bit bitter and grouchy  |
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Post by fjenkins on Apr 17, 2020 18:37:13 GMT
Got that right. McGriff should have been in a long time ago. if he had retired in 1980 he would have been a first balloter.
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Post by fjenkins on Apr 17, 2020 18:37:55 GMT
Lou Whitaker.
One and done in the voting. One of the biggest voting travesties ever.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 17, 2020 18:51:55 GMT
Lou Whitaker. One and done in the voting. One of the biggest voting travesties ever. Think Sweet Lou benefited greatly by having Trammell next to him - for instance - let's say some ham & egger was playing SS next to him - guess what I'm trying to say - think Trammell made Lou look better than he was - i.e. with double plays, cutting the field in half, etc etc?
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 13:14:30 GMT
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 18, 2020 15:44:34 GMT
Lou Whitaker. One and done in the voting. One of the biggest voting travesties ever. Looking at his stats, I don't know that I'd call that one of the biggest voting travesties ever. Sure he was a good player, but hall of famer? He was rookie of the year and named to 5 all star games. He had only one season in which he earned any MVP votes and he finished 8th that year. He won 3 gold gloves and 2 silver sluggers. He's a lifetime .276 hitter with only one full season over .300. Again, good player, maybe even very good, but not a hall of famer.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 18, 2020 16:10:41 GMT
This wrestling HOF discussion is like discussing which fish Aquaman had deeper conversations with, or which Transformer is the coolest. It is, but there could also be a circus performer HOF, or a Hollywood stuntman HOF. WWE is just that - soap opera with stuntmen & women doing circus style entertainment. While the product has been garbage since about 2005 for me personally, I won't negate its history. re. Carlos Delgado. Might he be eligible for the Harold Baines pathway?
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 18, 2020 16:16:58 GMT
This wrestling HOF discussion is like discussing which fish Aquaman had deeper conversations with, or which Transformer is the coolest. It is, but there could also be a circus performer HOF, or a Hollywood stuntman HOF. WWE is just that - soap opera with stuntmen & women doing circus style entertainment. While the product has been garbage since about 2005 for me personally, I won't negate its history. But what makes one a "great" wrestler worthy of being inducted into their hall of fame? It's not like Barry Sanders and Greg Maddux being measured against their peers. Doesn't Vince McMahon essentially determine who is good and who isn't? Who is pushed heavily and who isn't? Is it who ends up being popular with the fans? What are the measurables? Sure, they can have their hall of fame and elect who they wish but it doesn't have the same meaning as a true sports hall of fame.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 18, 2020 16:19:41 GMT
It is, but there could also be a circus performer HOF, or a Hollywood stuntman HOF. WWE is just that - soap opera with stuntmen & women doing circus style entertainment. While the product has been garbage since about 2005 for me personally, I won't negate its history. But what makes one a "great" wrestler worthy of being inducted into their hall of fame? It's not like Barry Sanders and Greg Maddux being measured against their peers. Doesn't Vince McMahon essentially determine who is good and who isn't? Who is pushed heavily and who isn't? Is it who ends up being popular with the fans? What are the measurables? Sure, they can have their hall of fame and elect who they wish but it doesn't have the same meaning as a true sports hall of fame. WWE is not true sports, nor should it have a true sports HOF.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 16:19:47 GMT
It is, but there could also be a circus performer HOF, or a Hollywood stuntman HOF. WWE is just that - soap opera with stuntmen & women doing circus style entertainment. While the product has been garbage since about 2005 for me personally, I won't negate its history. But what makes one a "great" wrestler worthy of being inducted into their hall of fame? It's not like Barry Sanders and Greg Maddux being measured against their peers. Doesn't Vince McMahon essentially determine who is good and who isn't? Who is pushed heavily and who isn't? Is it who ends up being popular with the fans? What are the measurables? Sure, they can have their hall of fame and elect who they wish but it doesn't have the same meaning as a true sports hall of fame. I'd say -
Longevity
Influence on the business
Popularity amongst the fans
Respect amongst your peers
Ability to protect your oppenent and make them look good in the ring
In ring ability
Promo/mic work
These are some of the variables in determining the elite.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 18, 2020 16:29:07 GMT
But what makes one a "great" wrestler worthy of being inducted into their hall of fame? It's not like Barry Sanders and Greg Maddux being measured against their peers. Doesn't Vince McMahon essentially determine who is good and who isn't? Who is pushed heavily and who isn't? Is it who ends up being popular with the fans? What are the measurables? Sure, they can have their hall of fame and elect who they wish but it doesn't have the same meaning as a true sports hall of fame. I'd say -
Longevity
Influence on the business
Popularity amongst the fans
Respect amongst your peers
Ability to protect your oppenent and make them look good in the ring
In ring ability
Promo/mic work
These are some of the variables in determining the elite.
Barring injury, longevity is entirely in McMahon's hands. Influence on the business is entirely in McMahon's hands. The others don't matter without the first two.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 16:38:53 GMT
I'd say -
Longevity
Influence on the business
Popularity amongst the fans
Respect amongst your peers
Ability to protect your oppenent and make them look good in the ring
In ring ability
Promo/mic work
These are some of the variables in determining the elite.
Barring injury, longevity is entirely in McMahon's hands. Influence on the business is entirely in McMahon's hands. The others don't matter without the first two. Not necessarily.
Longevity can be in the wrestlers hands - i.e. if he connects with the fans and is able to stay relevant.
See certain wrestlers such as Matt Hardy who have been able to reinvent themselves multiple times in the industry with different personas and are able to this day stay relevant - which in turn causes a promoter to keep them around because they = $.
Influence on the business - one can argue one's size such as Andre became an attraction for casual fans - just like the midgets - this isn't a creation via McMahon - it may be an individual breaking a barrier - or like the first African American holding the heavyweight title - Ron Simmons.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 16:53:07 GMT
Who else thinks Donovan McNabb should be in the HOF?  |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 18, 2020 16:57:15 GMT
Barring injury, longevity is entirely in McMahon's hands. Influence on the business is entirely in McMahon's hands. The others don't matter without the first two. Not necessarily.
Longevity can be in the wrestlers hands - i.e. if he connects with the fans and is able to stay relevant.
See certain wrestlers such as Matt Hardy who have been able to reinvent themselves multiple times in the industry with different personas and are able to this day stay relevant - which in turn causes a promoter to keep them around because they = $.
Influence on the business - one can argue one's size such as Andre became an attraction for casual fans - just like the midgets - this isn't a creation via McMahon - it may be an individual breaking a barrier - or like the first African American holding the heavyweight title - Ron Simmons.
I get what you’re saying but how many Andre the Giants are there? I grant you that some wrestlers naturally have a lot of charisma - Piper, Savage, Austin, guys like that, but those aren’t necessarily wrestling skills. A wrestler has to have athletic ability and the skill to execute the moves, but so does a trapeze artist in a Cirque du Soleil performance. The vast majority of a WWE wrestler’s success lies within Vince McMahon’s will. |
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 17:05:40 GMT
Not necessarily.
Longevity can be in the wrestlers hands - i.e. if he connects with the fans and is able to stay relevant.
See certain wrestlers such as Matt Hardy who have been able to reinvent themselves multiple times in the industry with different personas and are able to this day stay relevant - which in turn causes a promoter to keep them around because they = $.
Influence on the business - one can argue one's size such as Andre became an attraction for casual fans - just like the midgets - this isn't a creation via McMahon - it may be an individual breaking a barrier - or like the first African American holding the heavyweight title - Ron Simmons.
I get what you’re saying but how many Andre the Giants are there? I grant you that some wrestlers naturally have a lot of charisma - Piper, Savage, Austin, guys like that, but those aren’t necessarily wrestling skills. A wrestler has to have athletic ability and the skill to execute the moves, but so does a trapeze artist in a Cirque du Soleil performance. The vast majority of a WWE wrestler’s success lies within Vince McMahon’s will. But what if these wrestlers spent limited time under Vince and are still in the HOF?
Like Sting? i.e. no molding by Vince was needed in this situation. One can argue - well Sting was pushed and molded by the NWA/WCW promoters; however Sting is one of those wrestlers I'm talking about who managed to reinvent himself as the times changed to stay relevant. If the fans weren't digging him - he'd be toast.
I mean - sure Vince has a part in molding a character and giving him direction; however it's up to that performer to get over with the fans and make an impact on the business.
Vince could try to push somebody to the moon - but if that performer does not have 'it' - i.e. connect with the fans - it's over for them - no matter how hard Vince tries to push him.
The wrestler needs to have a connection with the fans either as a heel or a face - get a reaction - either cheers or boos.
There's a term in the industry called 'X PAC Heat' - which pretty much means - get off of my television screen - we hate you either as a heel or a face - we just don't want to see you on our TV screens. So Vince can push anybody he wants and mold them however he wants - but if they don't click with the fan - they're gone soon enough.
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Post by sdm3 on Apr 18, 2020 17:13:33 GMT
I get what you’re saying but how many Andre the Giants are there? I grant you that some wrestlers naturally have a lot of charisma - Piper, Savage, Austin, guys like that, but those aren’t necessarily wrestling skills. A wrestler has to have athletic ability and the skill to execute the moves, but so does a trapeze artist in a Cirque du Soleil performance. The vast majority of a WWE wrestler’s success lies within Vince McMahon’s will. Vince could try to push somebody to the moon - but if that performer does not have 'it' - i.e. connect with the fans - it's over for them - no matter how hard Vince tries to push him.
Roman Reigns? |
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 17:19:37 GMT
Vince could try to push somebody to the moon - but if that performer does not have 'it' - i.e. connect with the fans - it's over for them - no matter how hard Vince tries to push him.
Roman Reigns? He's a perfect example of somebody who keeps getting pushed and pushed and pushed and the fans were against him - until he came out with battling Leukemia - and then fans gradually starting getting behind him.
If it wasn't for his batle with Leukemia - and the fans rallying around him - I seriously doubt Vince would have pushed him again because of all the backlash he was getting for being pushed.
Cena is kind of similar - people just got sick and tired of him and just wanted him to get off their screens for years - but he's already cemented his place in history - the Cena/Wyatt match kind of described what Cena wanted as he was getting stale if you saw the nWo bit - he wanted to turn heel but Vince wouldn't let him because he was a hero to children.
Cena and Reigns are examples of 2 performers Vince has molded and has held in the palm of his hands - I'll give Cena more credit though as I believe he's quite talented if you've seen his Thuganomics gimmick - i.e. he's one of those wrestlers I'm talking about who has 'it' and is able to get over by himself as heel for face - not so sure about Reigns - Reigns is one of those Vince creations but IMO is still hanging on because fans slowly started to rally around him after he came out about battling Leukemia.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 18, 2020 21:28:55 GMT
Who else thinks Donovan McNabb should be in the HOF? I just noticed this post. #5 shouldn't get a sniff of the hall of fame.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Apr 18, 2020 21:43:40 GMT
Who else thinks Donovan McNabb should be in the HOF? I just noticed this post. #5 shouldn't get a sniff of the hall of fame. Greatest QB in Eagles history.
Led them to 8 playoff appearances, 5 Division Titles, 5 NFC Championship Games and a Super Bowl.
Not only a threat with his arm; however with his legs too - also played most of his career with subpar WRs
6 Time Pro Bowler
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