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Post by klawrencio79 on May 6, 2020 15:41:30 GMT
Again, breaking my own rules here as Albert Belle gets discussed often enough here, but do we really appreciate just how good this guy was? Methinks not. Consider it this way - if you're a pitcher and when you face the Angels, you know Mike Trout is the best hitter on the planet and you can't let him beat you....but do you fear him? I don't care who you are, how many ASGs you've been to, when you stand on the bump and Albert Belle digs in to the batter's box, your ass puckers up a little bit. A Shreveport, Louisiana native, Belle excelled at LSU where he made 1st Team All-SEC in both 1986 and 1987. Across 184 games during those 2 years, Belle tormented the opposition with 194 hits, 30 doubles, 49 HRs, 172 RBI, 157 runs, a .332 average and a .670 slugging percentage. Take that, college pitchers. Let's get right down to some bulletpoints because it's the only way to do Belle's career justice: - From 1991 - 2000 (his only full-time years in the bigs), he averaged .298/.374/.571 (.945), 37 HRs, 120 RBI, 38 doubles, and 95 runs. He finished his career with 381 homers and 1,239 RBI. He had 8 straight years with 30 dingers and 100 RBI (only 9 others have done that).
- From 1993 - 2000, Belle ranks 1st in RBI, 1st in doubles, 2nd in hits, 4th in HR, 7th in runs, 5th in slugging and 7th in OPS+.
- Appeared in 5 All-Star Games and with all due respect to Mo Vaughn, Belle got jobbed in the 1995 MVP race. 50 homers and 50 doubles is a feat that has never been accomplished before or since, and he did it in a strike-shortened season. Belle had a higher average, OBP, slugging, hit more homers, scored more runs and led his team to the playoffs, as did Mo. His clutch stats weren't too shabby either and while Vaughn's were admittedly better, MVP voters didn't pay attention to those types of things back then. The press hated Belle (with good reason) and a large contingent of voters refused to vote for him in what ended up being a very close vote. Plain and simple.
- One of only 11 players to have 9-straight 100-RBI seasons, leading the league 3 times in that category.
- In 1996, he was awarded a 5-year, $55m contract, becoming the first player ever to break the $10m per year mark. Incredible to think of some of the shitheels that have crossed that mark since then.
- Won 5 Silver Slugger Awards, the most in Indians franchise history.
- Homered in his last career AB, a solo shot off of Denny Neagle.
It's no secret that Belle has had some legal troubles, he openly chastised the press, he chased trick-or-treaters with his car once, he had that crazy corked bat controversy where he tried to replace his corked bat with some souvenir bat during the game to avoid detection, but Buster Olney (then with the NYT) has a great quote that pretty much sums it up:
Getting back to the fear element, just watch these clips and tell me that you wouldn't shit yourself if you had to face this guy, just look at that stance and his swing:
Naturally, that shot comes against Mr. Unclutch himself, Armando Benitez.
I particularly love this clip below because I HATE Fernando Vina. The punch-and-judy hitter never saw a pitch he wouldn't lean right into and the umps never called him out on it, instead opting to award him first base because they took pity on him. Nice to see him get a little comeuppance here:
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Post by Rufus-T on May 6, 2020 15:44:41 GMT
Should have been in the HOF already.
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Post by SportsFan19 on May 6, 2020 15:49:40 GMT
I came to like Vina during his stint in St. Louis.
I bite my thumb at you, sir.
Didn't Belle also throw a baseball at a reporter?
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 6, 2020 16:10:03 GMT
Should have been in the HOF already. You can't shit on the baseball writers for your whole career and expect them to show you love later.
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Post by ReyKahuka on May 6, 2020 16:29:36 GMT
Tied for 21st in career Grand Slams, just looked it up. Kind of a goofy stat I guess, but worth noting. Love the Mr. Freeze story. He's another guy I didn't particularly like in the moment, but reading stories about his insane antics bring a smile to my face today.
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Post by Rufus-T on May 6, 2020 16:41:24 GMT
Should have been in the HOF already. You can't shit on the baseball writers for your whole career and expect them to show you love later.
What is fair is fair. The writers don't have to love the guy to respect him, like they finally show the respect for Jim Rice. Took the final year for Rice to get in was a disgrace.
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Post by klawrencio79 on May 6, 2020 17:22:52 GMT
You can't shit on the baseball writers for your whole career and expect them to show you love later.
What is fair is fair. The writers don't have to love the guy to respect him, like they finally show the respect for Jim Rice. Took the final year for Rice to get in was a disgrace. There's no denying that Belle hardly did himself any favors with the press, but there's also no denying that outside of 15 year old girls, there is no more petty a contingent of the population than the BBWAA.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 6, 2020 17:31:43 GMT
You can't shit on the baseball writers for your whole career and expect them to show you love later.
What is fair is fair. The writers don't have to love the guy to respect him, like they finally show the respect for Jim Rice. Took the final year for Rice to get in was a disgrace. Belle took boorish behavior to a whole new level. And he paid for it. Cost him an MVP, he was three times the player Mo was in 1995. He deserved that. HOF, yeah probably. Not like he hit 800 HR's. 1700 hits 381 HR's, .295 avg. The .295 is nice but his career ended abruptly, he didn't have the downward spiral. Good number but there are plenty of players with better who are on the outside. Indian Bob Johnson for one. You can't put up very good numbers, be a peckerhead and expect good things to happen. Joey Belle made his bed.
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Post by millar70 on May 6, 2020 19:10:04 GMT
Should have been in the HOF already. You can't shit on the baseball writers for your whole career and expect them to show you love later.
You would think that what someone actually accomplishes on the field would be enough, but let's be honest......it really comes down to whether you chewed gum in class or not. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 6, 2020 19:43:29 GMT
You can't shit on the baseball writers for your whole career and expect them to show you love later.
You would think that what someone actually accomplishes on the field would be enough, but let's be honest......it really comes down to whether you chewed gum in class or not. He's was a great hitter, but face it, his numbers aren't Hank Aaron's or Jimmie Foxx's. Not Mario Mendoza of buddy Biancalana' either.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on May 6, 2020 20:31:11 GMT
So what’s more important when it comes to HOF enshrinement, peak or longevity? So say he played longer. Yes his BA would most likely have gone down but the other numbers would have gone up. I look at it like this when someone asks me which band is better, Metallica or Megadeth. The first three Metallica albums are at the highest peak of metal. The 4th is a terribly produced but still good album. Everything after that sucks outside of a song here and there. Megadeth put out solid album after solid album their whole career, but outside of Rust in Peace none of them approached those first 3 Metallica records. So who is better? Do you value consistency or a shorter period of explosive talent?
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Post by fjenkins on May 6, 2020 20:35:35 GMT
Again, breaking my own rules here as Albert Belle gets discussed often enough here, but do we really appreciate just how good this guy was? Methinks not. Consider it this way - if you're a pitcher and when you face the Angels, you know Mike Trout is the best hitter on the planet and you can't let him beat you....but do you fear him? I don't care who you are, how many ASGs you've been to, when you stand on the bump and Albert Belle digs in to the batter's box, your ass puckers up a little bit. A Shreveport, Louisiana native, Belle excelled at LSU where he made 1st Team All-SEC in both 1986 and 1987. Across 184 games during those 2 years, Belle tormented the opposition with 194 hits, 30 doubles, 49 HRs, 172 RBI, 157 runs, a .332 average and a .670 slugging percentage. Take that, college pitchers. Let's get right down to some bulletpoints because it's the only way to do Belle's career justice: - From 1991 - 2000 (his only full-time years in the bigs), he averaged .298/.374/.571 (.945), 37 HRs, 120 RBI, 38 doubles, and 95 runs. He finished his career with 381 homers and 1,239 RBI. He had 8 straight years with 30 dingers and 100 RBI (only 9 others have done that).
- From 1993 - 2000, Belle ranks 1st in RBI, 1st in doubles, 2nd in hits, 4th in HR, 7th in runs, 5th in slugging and 7th in OPS+.
- Appeared in 5 All-Star Games and with all due respect to Mo Vaughn, Belle got jobbed in the 1995 MVP race. 50 homers and 50 doubles is a feat that has never been accomplished before or since, and he did it in a strike-shortened season. Belle had a higher average, OBP, slugging, hit more homers, scored more runs and led his team to the playoffs, as did Mo. His clutch stats weren't too shabby either and while Vaughn's were admittedly better, MVP voters didn't pay attention to those types of things back then. The press hated Belle (with good reason) and a large contingent of voters refused to vote for him in what ended up being a very close vote. Plain and simple.
- One of only 11 players to have 9-straight 100-RBI seasons, leading the league 3 times in that category.
- In 1996, he was awarded a 5-year, $55m contract, becoming the first player ever to break the $10m per year mark. Incredible to think of some of the shitheels that have crossed that mark since then.
- Won 5 Silver Slugger Awards, the most in Indians franchise history.
- Homered in his last career AB, a solo shot off of Denny Neagle.
It's no secret that Belle has had some legal troubles, he openly chastised the press, he chased trick-or-treaters with his car once, he had that crazy corked bat controversy where he tried to replace his corked bat with some souvenir bat during the game to avoid detection, but Buster Olney (then with the NYT) has a great quote that pretty much sums it up:
Getting back to the fear element, just watch these clips and tell me that you wouldn't shit yourself if you had to face this guy, just look at that stance and his swing:
Naturally, that shot comes against Mr. Unclutch himself, Armando Benitez.
I particularly love this clip below because I HATE Fernando Vina. The punch-and-judy hitter never saw a pitch he wouldn't lean right into and the umps never called him out on it, instead opting to award him first base because they took pity on him. Nice to see him get a little comeuppance here:
This is one of those weird ones. Belle played 12 seasons, 10 full seasons in the bigs so he qualifies for the Hall and that said, statistcally he should be in. His ten full years were Hall quality seasons, comparable to Hank Greenburg. But the corked bat and douchebaggery will keep him out.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on May 6, 2020 20:49:29 GMT
Again, breaking my own rules here as Albert Belle gets discussed often enough here, but do we really appreciate just how good this guy was? Methinks not. Consider it this way - if you're a pitcher and when you face the Angels, you know Mike Trout is the best hitter on the planet and you can't let him beat you....but do you fear him? I don't care who you are, how many ASGs you've been to, when you stand on the bump and Albert Belle digs in to the batter's box, your ass puckers up a little bit. A Shreveport, Louisiana native, Belle excelled at LSU where he made 1st Team All-SEC in both 1986 and 1987. Across 184 games during those 2 years, Belle tormented the opposition with 194 hits, 30 doubles, 49 HRs, 172 RBI, 157 runs, a .332 average and a .670 slugging percentage. Take that, college pitchers. Let's get right down to some bulletpoints because it's the only way to do Belle's career justice: - From 1991 - 2000 (his only full-time years in the bigs), he averaged .298/.374/.571 (.945), 37 HRs, 120 RBI, 38 doubles, and 95 runs. He finished his career with 381 homers and 1,239 RBI. He had 8 straight years with 30 dingers and 100 RBI (only 9 others have done that).
- From 1993 - 2000, Belle ranks 1st in RBI, 1st in doubles, 2nd in hits, 4th in HR, 7th in runs, 5th in slugging and 7th in OPS+.
- Appeared in 5 All-Star Games and with all due respect to Mo Vaughn, Belle got jobbed in the 1995 MVP race. 50 homers and 50 doubles is a feat that has never been accomplished before or since, and he did it in a strike-shortened season. Belle had a higher average, OBP, slugging, hit more homers, scored more runs and led his team to the playoffs, as did Mo. His clutch stats weren't too shabby either and while Vaughn's were admittedly better, MVP voters didn't pay attention to those types of things back then. The press hated Belle (with good reason) and a large contingent of voters refused to vote for him in what ended up being a very close vote. Plain and simple.
- One of only 11 players to have 9-straight 100-RBI seasons, leading the league 3 times in that category.
- In 1996, he was awarded a 5-year, $55m contract, becoming the first player ever to break the $10m per year mark. Incredible to think of some of the shitheels that have crossed that mark since then.
- Won 5 Silver Slugger Awards, the most in Indians franchise history.
- Homered in his last career AB, a solo shot off of Denny Neagle.
It's no secret that Belle has had some legal troubles, he openly chastised the press, he chased trick-or-treaters with his car once, he had that crazy corked bat controversy where he tried to replace his corked bat with some souvenir bat during the game to avoid detection, but Buster Olney (then with the NYT) has a great quote that pretty much sums it up:
Getting back to the fear element, just watch these clips and tell me that you wouldn't shit yourself if you had to face this guy, just look at that stance and his swing:
Naturally, that shot comes against Mr. Unclutch himself, Armando Benitez.
I particularly love this clip below because I HATE Fernando Vina. The punch-and-judy hitter never saw a pitch he wouldn't lean right into and the umps never called him out on it, instead opting to award him first base because they took pity on him. Nice to see him get a little comeuppance here:
This is one of those weird ones. Belle played 12 seasons, 10 full seasons in the bigs so he qualifies for the Hall and that said, statistcally he should be in. His ten full years were Hall quality seasons, comparable to Hank Greenburg. But the corked bat and douchebaggery will keep him out. Didn’t Greenberg serve in the war? I think the writers excused that if that was the reason for missing seasons / lower stats. |
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Post by klawrencio79 on May 6, 2020 20:52:40 GMT
So what’s more important when it comes to HOF enshrinement, peak or longevity? So say he played longer. Yes his BA would most likely have gone down but the other numbers would have gone up. I look at it like this when someone asks me which band is better, Metallica or Megadeth. The first three Metallica albums are at the highest peak of metal. The 4th is a terribly produced but still good album. Everything after that sucks outside of a song here and there. Megadeth put out solid album after solid album their whole career, but outside of Rust in Peace none of them approached those first 3 Metallica records. So who is better? Do you value consistency or a shorter period of explosive talent? It's definitely a worthwhile argument. Personally, I prefer a high peak to a career of aggregating. To me, all things being equal, I'd rather have Albert Belle than Andrew Dawson. It's where you draw that line is where it can become really murky. You mentioned JR Richard yesterday. Richard had a 4.5 year run where he was one of the best starters in the NL. I'm not saying put Richard in, but what's the cutoff? A great 8 years? 7 years? Koufax is in (rightfully so) based on basically a 5-year stretch that is arguably the best stretch any pitcher has ever had. What about someone who was just a tick under that? I think it's impossible to set defined criteria so we take everyone on a case-by-case basis. It's the only way it makes sense, but where you have borderline guys like Belle, it makes for compelling discussion.
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Post by millar70 on May 6, 2020 20:55:18 GMT
So what’s more important when it comes to HOF enshrinement, peak or longevity? So say he played longer. Yes his BA would most likely have gone down but the other numbers would have gone up. I look at it like this when someone asks me which band is better, Metallica or Megadeth. The first three Metallica albums are at the highest peak of metal. The 4th is a terribly produced but still good album. Everything after that sucks outside of a song here and there. Megadeth put out solid album after solid album their whole career, but outside of Rust in Peace none of them approached those first 3 Metallica records. So who is better? Do you value consistency or a shorter period of explosive talent? Metallica |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on May 6, 2020 21:12:23 GMT
So what’s more important when it comes to HOF enshrinement, peak or longevity? So say he played longer. Yes his BA would most likely have gone down but the other numbers would have gone up. I look at it like this when someone asks me which band is better, Metallica or Megadeth. The first three Metallica albums are at the highest peak of metal. The 4th is a terribly produced but still good album. Everything after that sucks outside of a song here and there. Megadeth put out solid album after solid album their whole career, but outside of Rust in Peace none of them approached those first 3 Metallica records. So who is better? Do you value consistency or a shorter period of explosive talent? It's definitely a worthwhile argument. Personally, I prefer a high peak to a career of aggregating. To me, all things being equal, I'd rather have Albert Belle than Andrew Dawson. It's where you draw that line is where it can become really murky. You mentioned JR Richard yesterday. Richard had a 4.5 year run where he was one of the best starters in the NL. I'm not saying put Richard in, but what's the cutoff? A great 8 years? 7 years? Koufax is in (rightfully so) based on basically a 5-year stretch that is arguably the best stretch any pitcher has ever had. What about someone who was just a tick under that? I think it's impossible to set defined criteria so we take everyone on a case-by-case basis. It's the only way it makes sense, but where you have borderline guys like Belle, it makes for compelling discussion. You’re a lifelong baseball fan as are most of us from USA here. I think you just kind of know when someone is a hall of famer or not. JR Richard I think could have been, I just don’t think he did enough of it. His peak wasn’t peaky enough. To me guys like Don Sutton and Baines and Blyleven, I don’t think they should be in. Sutton to me is the poster boy for accumulating stats. I don’t care what his career numbers are, was he ever dominant? |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 6, 2020 21:15:21 GMT
So what’s more important when it comes to HOF enshrinement, peak or longevity? So say he played longer. Yes his BA would most likely have gone down but the other numbers would have gone up. I look at it like this when someone asks me which band is better, Metallica or Megadeth. The first three Metallica albums are at the highest peak of metal. The 4th is a terribly produced but still good album. Everything after that sucks outside of a song here and there. Megadeth put out solid album after solid album their whole career, but outside of Rust in Peace none of them approached those first 3 Metallica records. So who is better? Do you value consistency or a shorter period of explosive talent? Depends on the player. Don Sutton has 324 career wins. Sandy Koufax has 165. We all know who the better pitcher was. As far as the peak argument, the peak years have to be really up there. Like Koufax. For 4-5 years, he was one of the best pitchers in history. You can never say that about Sutton. Does Sutton deserve to be in, sure. Is Belle's numbers HOF worthy, up to you. I wouldn't gnash my teeth if he got in. Belle put up good stats but not Koufaxian stats. He's also battling that era. His biggest argument is homers. And no one takes those HR numbers seriously from that era.
Both Metallica and Megadeth aren't my cup of tea. Beatles and Stones would have been a better argument
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 6, 2020 21:18:25 GMT
It's definitely a worthwhile argument. Personally, I prefer a high peak to a career of aggregating. To me, all things being equal, I'd rather have Albert Belle than Andrew Dawson. It's where you draw that line is where it can become really murky. You mentioned JR Richard yesterday. Richard had a 4.5 year run where he was one of the best starters in the NL. I'm not saying put Richard in, but what's the cutoff? A great 8 years? 7 years? Koufax is in (rightfully so) based on basically a 5-year stretch that is arguably the best stretch any pitcher has ever had. What about someone who was just a tick under that? I think it's impossible to set defined criteria so we take everyone on a case-by-case basis. It's the only way it makes sense, but where you have borderline guys like Belle, it makes for compelling discussion. You’re a lifelong baseball fan as are most of us from USA here. I think you just kind of know when someone is a hall of famer or not. JR Richard I think could have been, I just don’t think he did enough of it. His peak wasn’t peaky enough. To me guys like Don Sutton and Baines and Blyleven, I don’t think they should be in. Sutton to me is the poster boy for accumulating stats. I don’t care what his career numbers are, was he ever dominant? Wow, at nearly the same time. Get out of my head Frank, you really don't want to be there 
With Sutton, you can't deny 324 wins. And you shouldn't be punished for being consistent and taking care of his body.
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Post by SportsFan19 on May 6, 2020 21:40:09 GMT
So what’s more important when it comes to HOF enshrinement, peak or longevity? So say he played longer. Yes his BA would most likely have gone down but the other numbers would have gone up. I look at it like this when someone asks me which band is better, Metallica or Megadeth. The first three Metallica albums are at the highest peak of metal. The 4th is a terribly produced but still good album. Everything after that sucks outside of a song here and there. Megadeth put out solid album after solid album their whole career, but outside of Rust in Peace none of them approached those first 3 Metallica records. So who is better? Do you value consistency or a shorter period of explosive talent? I want a bit of both... but I'm greedy. Metallica
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on May 6, 2020 21:42:20 GMT
You’re a lifelong baseball fan as are most of us from USA here. I think you just kind of know when someone is a hall of famer or not. JR Richard I think could have been, I just don’t think he did enough of it. His peak wasn’t peaky enough. To me guys like Don Sutton and Baines and Blyleven, I don’t think they should be in. Sutton to me is the poster boy for accumulating stats. I don’t care what his career numbers are, was he ever dominant? Wow, at nearly the same time. Get out of my head Frank, you really don't want to be there
With Sutton, you can't deny 324 wins. And you shouldn't be punished for being consistent and taking care of his body.
In 23 seasons Sutton got 20 or more wins once during a time when good pitchers routinely got to 20. He finished as high as third in Cy Young voting once, fourth once and fifth twice. He had a remarkably consistent yet unspectacular career. So bravo, he avoided the DL in a long career. Whoop de doooo! |
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