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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 17:48:01 GMT
A lot of those are one-offs; the magnitude and multitude of Superman stuff over the long arc of filmic representation outweighs most of it combined, notwithstanding Batman. But I've always seen him as the Randy Savage to Superman's Hogan. So why are we wasting time talking about this and ignoring the pressing, burning question at the heart of the matter: then who would be the Ultimate Warrior?! Oh the Ultimate Warrior is tough, because it would have to be something that was intended to last a long time and then just fizzled out after a couple of years.
Do we have any candidates?
And just finishing up the Superman bit, I contend the continual push of him as "the guy" is just superficial. His appeal is generic, because he is generic, which is also why few really care and have a generic disposition towards him. They show up because everybody has this idea that it's supposed to be good, but it never is, because it's generic. The argument here is that vanilla ice cream is the best. Sure, yeah I guess.
I like your insight. I would respectfully tweak it to: vanilla ice cream is the "standard" by which others are judged and will always be around while other flavors may come and go. To answer your question, the Ultimate Warrior is obviously Mint Chocolate Chip. Er. Wait a minute...
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 29, 2017 17:55:41 GMT
I like your insight. I would respectfully tweak it to: vanilla ice cream is the "standard" by which others are judged and will always be around while other flavors may come and go. To answer your question, the Ultimate Warrior is obviously Mint Chocolate Chip. Er. Wait a minute... Sure, but no ice cream company uses vanilla as it's featured flavor. We've now highlighted the problem with DC.
And I'm still thinking of a comic character who is the Ultimate Warrior. My initial thought was Wraith from the Annihilation series, but that's too short.
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Post by brownstones on Apr 29, 2017 17:58:05 GMT
mmmm probably
batman superman spiderman wonder woman the hulk
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 18:01:03 GMT
I like your insight. I would respectfully tweak it to: vanilla ice cream is the "standard" by which others are judged and will always be around while other flavors may come and go. To answer your question, the Ultimate Warrior is obviously Mint Chocolate Chip. Er. Wait a minute... Sure, but no ice cream company uses vanilla as it's featured flavor. We've now highlighted the problem with DC.
And I'm still thinking of a comic character who is the Ultimate Warrior. My initial thought was Wraith from the Annihilation series, but that's too short.
Oh, ho! There's a lot of truth to that. Maybe Doomsday? Since he "kills" Superman, and Warrior was the only one to pin Hogan clean during that era (at Mania VI in Toronto)?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 29, 2017 18:01:59 GMT
Sure, but no ice cream company uses vanilla as it's featured flavor. We've now highlighted the problem with DC.
And I'm still thinking of a comic character who is the Ultimate Warrior. My initial thought was Wraith from the Annihilation series, but that's too short.
Oh, ho! There's a lot of truth to that. Um: Doomsday? Since he "kills" Superman, and Warrior is the only to pin Hogan clean during that era (at Mania VI in Toronto)? That's not bad, but Warrior was a good guy.
Maybe Ben Reilly?
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 18:17:27 GMT
Oh, ho! There's a lot of truth to that. Um: Doomsday? Since he "kills" Superman, and Warrior is the only to pin Hogan clean during that era (at Mania VI in Toronto)? That's not bad, but Warrior was a good guy.
Maybe Ben Reilly?
That's... actually really fitting. I mean, they pushed Warrior to the moon, and I think you could say the same for Ben.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 29, 2017 22:13:39 GMT
I really don't think he is. He was the guy but he barely outsells Thor now, much less Captain America, or Spiderman, Iron Man, Batman, etc. Baby Groot is going to crush him in toy sales. I don't see how he's the guy honestly. I think he's clearly not. His iconic status transcends floppy sales. He is on another level, as are Batman and, to a lesser extent, Spider-Man. That's correct. Superman will always be #1 simply for the fact that he started it all. Without Superman, there would be no comic-book superheroes today. Without Superman: The Movie, there would be no CBMs today. Superman is the one who started it all.
It's similar to Hulk Hogan. Without Hulkmania, there would be no WrestleMania.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 29, 2017 22:16:58 GMT
In no particular order, here are mine. Superman: He's the original. He's the classic. Salt-of-the-earth boy finds out he's a person who can save the world. Our symbol of hope. Batman: The opposite of Superman. The guy is a total psycho, but it works. He's a ninja-detective who beats the piss out of the strangest criminals you've ever seen. And the kicker is that most of these criminals exist because this ninja-detective decided to dress up like a bat. None of it makes sense, but all of it is awesome. Wonder Woman: #ImWithHer (or whatever). Spider-Man: He's a kid. He's your standard comic book reader. Poor and young. They can relate. It's brilliant. Professor X: Inspired by a civil rights leader, and giving the handicapped a hero of their own. A physically weak man also happens to have the most powerful mind on the planet. In all seriousness, this is brilliant. He's like the Stephen Hawking of the Marvel Universe. And there's also the added twist that he's a complete badass. In terms of the top 5 most iconic superheroes in American comics history, the top 4 ("the Mount Rushmore of superheroes") are obvious: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and Wonder Woman. No other superheroes come close to those 4.
At #5, I would go with Captain America. He's been around since the early 1940s so even most non-comic book fans have heard of him before.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 22:52:31 GMT
In no particular order, here are mine. Superman: He's the original. He's the classic. Salt-of-the-earth boy finds out he's a person who can save the world. Our symbol of hope. Batman: The opposite of Superman. The guy is a total psycho, but it works. He's a ninja-detective who beats the piss out of the strangest criminals you've ever seen. And the kicker is that most of these criminals exist because this ninja-detective decided to dress up like a bat. None of it makes sense, but all of it is awesome. Wonder Woman: #ImWithHer (or whatever). Spider-Man: He's a kid. He's your standard comic book reader. Poor and young. They can relate. It's brilliant. Professor X: Inspired by a civil rights leader, and giving the handicapped a hero of their own. A physically weak man also happens to have the most powerful mind on the planet. In all seriousness, this is brilliant. He's like the Stephen Hawking of the Marvel Universe. And there's also the added twist that he's a complete badass. In terms of the top 5 most iconic superheroes in American comics history, the top 4 ("the Mount Rushmore of superheroes") are obvious: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and Wonder Woman. No other superheroes come close to those 4.
At #5, I would go with Captain America. He's been around since the early 1940s so even most non-comic book fans have heard of him before.
Respectfully, I'd put either the Hulk or Wolverine pretty far ahead of Cap.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 30, 2017 1:03:50 GMT
I see what you're saying, but would ask, is it that unique?
First, has he rebounded? MOS was pretty derided. It got a lower rating than any MCU film and barely made more than Thor, so I don't know that it qualifies as a rebound. I would argue the last good Superman film was back with Superman 2. Smallville was only getting 3-4 million viewers, so it's not like it was a breakout show. For comparison, Daredevil gets that much and he hasn't been pushed publically or lived up nearly to the iconic level of Superman.
Second, Captain America has been tried before and now reused more successfully. Hulk had a long running TV show way back in the 70's and has been brought back. Punisher has been tried numerous times as far back as the 80's and has rebounded. Batman of course television to the 89 film to TDK.
So I don't really see Superman as particularly unique in that regard.
I think people tend to hang on his name. It's like we're supposed to think he's the guy, but nobody actually thinks he is.
A lot of those are one-offs; the magnitude and multitude of Superman stuff over the long arc of filmic representation outweighs most of it combined, notwithstanding Batman. But I've always seen him as the Randy Savage to Superman's Hogan. So why are we wasting time talking about this and ignoring the pressing, burning question at the heart of the matter: then who would be the Ultimate Warrior?! Irony about this is that, behind-the-scenes, nobody liked Hogan. Hogan is a relic of a bygone era that they bring out every once in a while, but they have no clue what to do with him. Yeah, he might be the image of the genre, with his generic wrestling moves, but is Hogan all that? Ultimate Warrior was suppose to be the new Hogan. But the entire time he was below him. So... Captain Marvel/Shazam.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2017 1:15:23 GMT
A lot of those are one-offs; the magnitude and multitude of Superman stuff over the long arc of filmic representation outweighs most of it combined, notwithstanding Batman. But I've always seen him as the Randy Savage to Superman's Hogan. So why are we wasting time talking about this and ignoring the pressing, burning question at the heart of the matter: then who would be the Ultimate Warrior?! Irony about this is that, behind-the-scenes, nobody liked Hogan. Hogan is a relic of a bygone era that they bring out every once in a while, but they have no clue what to do with him. Yeah, he might be the image of the genre, with his generic wrestling moves, but is Hogan all that? Ultimate Warrior was suppose to be the new Hogan. But the entire time he was below him. So... Captain Marvel/Shazam. Yeah, they tried to elevate Warrior after the title win, but it "didn't take." He had already peaked by virtue of pinning Hogan. And, yeah, Hogan is a master politician and power player backstage who has been resented and hated for decades. lol @ Shazam, but you're not off-base!
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 30, 2017 1:18:14 GMT
Irony about this is that, behind-the-scenes, nobody liked Hogan. Hogan is a relic of a bygone era that they bring out every once in a while, but they have no clue what to do with him. Yeah, he might be the image of the genre, with his generic wrestling moves, but is Hogan all that? Ultimate Warrior was suppose to be the new Hogan. But the entire time he was below him. So... Captain Marvel/Shazam. Yeah, they tried to elevate Warrior after the title win, but it "didn't take." He had already peaked by virtue of pinning Hogan. And, yeah, Hogan is a master politician and power player backstage who has been resented and hated for decades. lol @ Shazam, but you're not off-base! And, uh... If you didn't know I was dual talking about Superman and Hogan in that...
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 30, 2017 1:25:28 GMT
In no particular order, here are mine. Superman: He's the original. He's the classic. Salt-of-the-earth boy finds out he's a person who can save the world. Our symbol of hope. Batman: The opposite of Superman. The guy is a total psycho, but it works. He's a ninja-detective who beats the piss out of the strangest criminals you've ever seen. And the kicker is that most of these criminals exist because this ninja-detective decided to dress up like a bat. None of it makes sense, but all of it is awesome. Wonder Woman: #ImWithHer (or whatever). Spider-Man: He's a kid. He's your standard comic book reader. Poor and young. They can relate. It's brilliant. Professor X: Inspired by a civil rights leader, and giving the handicapped a hero of their own. A physically weak man also happens to have the most powerful mind on the planet. In all seriousness, this is brilliant. He's like the Stephen Hawking of the Marvel Universe. And there's also the added twist that he's a complete badass. In terms of the top 5 most iconic superheroes in American comics history, the top 4 ("the Mount Rushmore of superheroes") are obvious: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and Wonder Woman. No other superheroes come close to those 4.
At #5, I would go with Captain America. He's been around since the early 1940s so even most non-comic book fans have heard of him before.
It's so weird that the DC folks can't get over their trinity. This is the same trinity that just got their ass handed to them by Civil War. When are you going to start to realize that aren't as great as you think they are?
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2017 1:26:30 GMT
Yeah, they tried to elevate Warrior after the title win, but it "didn't take." He had already peaked by virtue of pinning Hogan. And, yeah, Hogan is a master politician and power player backstage who has been resented and hated for decades. lol @ Shazam, but you're not off-base! And, uh... If you didn't know I was dual talking about Superman and Hogan in that... Oh, I know. It's just a tendency of mine to take any conversation about anything and dovetail it into a straight-faced discussion of the wrestling business. Ha. Thankfully (unlike Hogan, who is so old and beat up from falling on his ass every night for thirty years doing the "big legdrop" that dude can barely walk) Superman can reign again atop the comic book movie world. I really believe that if packaged and presented correctly at the correct time the character can have "another run with the belt." Will Superman ever be as dominant in terms of market share as the character was in the days of Christopher Reeves? Eh, prolly not, but the same could be said for almost anything because of how diverse and "niche"-ified this kind of stuff has become. I would see a Superman revival as analogous to Hogan's "nostalgia run" with the WWE title in 2002, and I think it could still happen again. And again decades later, and so on.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 30, 2017 2:08:59 GMT
And, uh... If you didn't know I was dual talking about Superman and Hogan in that... Oh, I know. It's just a tendency of mine to take any conversation about anything and dovetail it into a straight-faced discussion of the wrestling business. Ha. Thankfully (unlike Hogan, who is so old and beat up from falling on his ass every night for thirty years doing the "big legdrop" that dude can barely walk) Superman can reign again atop the comic book movie world. I really believe that if packaged and presented correctly at the correct time the character can have "another run with the belt." Will Superman ever be as dominant in terms of market share as the character was in the days of Christopher Reeves? Eh, prolly not, but the same could be said for almost anything because of how diverse and "niche"-ified this kind of stuff has become. I would see a Superman revival as analogous to Hogan's "nostalgia run" with the WWE title in 2002, and I think it could still happen again. And again decades later, and so on. DCEU Superman is pretty much NWO Hogan.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 30, 2017 2:09:33 GMT
Top 5 superheroes at the conceptual level...
Spider-man Hulk Green Lantern Shazam Can't think of a 5th...
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Post by Atom(ica) Discord on Apr 30, 2017 4:39:32 GMT
Conceptually?
The Black Orchid - Susan Liden was brutally murdered, resurrected as a human/plant hybrid and tasked with solving her own murder. Is the Black Orchid a plant that dreamed it was a woman or a woman that has to learn to accept her death and new place in the natural order?
Captain Marvel - Monica Rambeau can transform herself into any form of energy within the electromagnetic spectrum. That's rad conceptually.
The Sub-Mariner - The true heir to the term Superman. No living being is better adapted to life on Earth in the Marvel universes. Namor has complete dominion over land, sea and air.
SHAZAM! - The concept of one simple, word that brings the ruckus is genius.
Animal Man - A mystical morphogenic field grants you the ability to mimic the power of any animal; living or extinct - Buddy Baker is a god.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 30, 2017 16:10:11 GMT
1. Batman 2. Spider-Man 3. The X-Men 4. Everyone else not in the MCU 5. The losers and jobbers and general mid-card roster Disney got stuck with when they thought they were acquiring the Marvel anyone gave two shits about and somehow managed to dupe morons into paying money to see because Joss Whedon explained comic books to some executive at some point You can't accept that the world has moved on, and those Marvel characters in the MCU are finally getting their proper respect....can you? This is starting to get sad.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 30, 2017 16:11:54 GMT
His iconic status transcends floppy sales. He is on another level, as are Batman and, to a lesser extent, Spider-Man. That's correct. Superman will always be #1 simply for the fact that he started it all. Without Superman, there would be no comic-book superheroes today. Without Superman: The Movie, there would be no CBMs today. Superman is the one who started it all.
It's similar to Hulk Hogan. Without Hulkmania, there would be no WrestleMania.
Not true, there's still be Superheroes without Superman. And there's be CBMs without Superman: The Movie. Accept it.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2017 16:20:54 GMT
1. Batman 2. Spider-Man 3. The X-Men 4. Everyone else not in the MCU 5. The losers and jobbers and general mid-card roster Disney got stuck with when they thought they were acquiring the Marvel anyone gave two shits about and somehow managed to dupe morons into paying money to see because Joss Whedon explained comic books to some executive at some point You can't accept that the world has moved on, and those Marvel characters in the MCU are finally getting their proper respect....can you? This is starting to get sad.
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