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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 23, 2020 11:18:57 GMT
It's the way it goes. I always thought Pauline Kael's take on Kane being a "shallow masterpiece" was essentially correct. Welles was a theatrical showman, and he brought all of that showmanship to bear on film technique, essentially synthesizing all that had been done before into one film and adding a few original touches of his own. It reminds me a bit of Joyce's Finnegans Wake; there's no way to be a lover of film/literature and not admire what both do on a technical level, but as works of art I think there's room for dispute. I just think a film like Vertigo, eg, has more to say and says it just as interestingly. I certainly wouldn't go against the argument that Kane is overrated, and would also agree that Kael was on the right track with this review (though I think she's sometimes a shallow showman herself). In any case, I'm with you with comparing Vertigo and Kane, and at this point I'm much more interested in rewatching the former again. Vertigo is an extraordinary film, a work of a true master genius. I'm a great admirer of Vertigo as well, although I always felt that there is always the danger of the viewer being hypnotised by its famously immersive experience, rather in the same way that Scottie is by Judy/Madeline, and thus overlooking structural weaknesses elsewhere. But this I mean the repetitious exposition of the plot's central deception - one scene of which Hitch was said to have belatedly realised as a mistake, failing to have it excised from the release print. As a misstep it is something which I find distracting each time I watch it.
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Post by thefleetsin on May 23, 2020 15:40:01 GMT
in the county of the land of oz
a revolution in evolution had taken the munchkins into territories yet unknown.
for their hearts had become illustrious homes as a new game was seen been tossed around the good witch's throne.
where one by one each and every daughter and son shouted christ has come while tagging everyone's funny bone.
sjw 05/23/2020 inspired at this very moment in time by the power of the heart immaculate.
from the 'beauty series' of poems
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on May 24, 2020 0:25:56 GMT
I certainly wouldn't go against the argument that Kane is overrated, and would also agree that Kael was on the right track with this review (though I think she's sometimes a shallow showman herself). In any case, I'm with you with comparing Vertigo and Kane, and at this point I'm much more interested in rewatching the former again. Vertigo is an extraordinary film, a work of a true master genius. I'm a great admirer of Vertigo as well, although I always felt that there is always the danger of the viewer being hypnotised by its famously immersive experience, rather in the same way that Scottie is by Judy/Madeline, and thus overlooking structural weaknesses elsewhere. But this I mean the repetitious exposition of the plot's central deception - one scene of which Hitch was said to have belatedly realised as a mistake, failing to have it excised from the release print. As a misstep it is something which I find distracting each time I watch it. I'd strongly disagree that what you're referring to is a structural weakness. In fact, I think much of the film's genius hinges on the infamous early reveal, much of it having to do with what you describe just before it. Before the reveal we are invited to sympathize with Scottie and see Madeleine from his perspective, so that we're immersed and mesmerized by the otherworldly mystery. The reveal is one of the great examples of disillusionment in cinema, and it transforms the film from a mystery into a commentary on mystery and the delusive, selfish, misogynistic, destructive power of fantasy ideals. In the first half of the film, we essentially ARE Scottie, while in the second half, we view Scottie critically as being practically insane; which almost becomes a meta-commentary about how humanity tends to prefer (and pursue) their own delusive fantasies even to the death. It turns the vertigo itself into a metaphor for the sickness we feel when trying to break through our illusions into truth, and the death at the end is arguably the most nihilistic moment in the history of film, suggesting that truth and illusion ultimately lead to the same place. Rear Window actually plays with similar themes, but with a more epistemological bend and with more toying with perspective. It's more about the disconnect we can have from reality through telling stories and in constructing our worldview, and is a bit more optimistic in our ability to integrate these different aspects (though not wholly successful given the rather ambiguous note it ends on regarding the relationship). I'll also mention that the history of that scene in Vertigo is quite interesting. You're correct that Hitchcock originally didn't want it in, and it was actually cut when the first copies were shipped to theaters. It's a bit of a mystery why it was restored it all. The two leading theories were that an early critics' screening had polar reactions when it was shown with the scene in VS out (they hated it out, loved it when in), and that Alma (Hitch's wife), who was sick at the time the original filming/editing was taking place, was late seeing the edit with the scene cut, and when she did insisted that it needed to be in there, and it's pretty well-known that on matters of debate about his films Hitch usually let Alma have the last say. Hitch's instincts weren't infallible, as another example of his original idea being the wrong one was how he originally planned Psycho's shower scene to be without music, and for that I think it was actually Bernard Hermann who insisted on having some music there. Anyway, here's a long, but good, article on that scene in Vertigo that goes into the history that I briefly mentioned above: somethingelsereviews.com/2015/05/04/alfred-hitchcock-vertigo-flashback-dan-auiler/
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 24, 2020 0:50:12 GMT
I'm a great admirer of Vertigo as well, although I always felt that there is always the danger of the viewer being hypnotised by its famously immersive experience, rather in the same way that Scottie is by Judy/Madeline, and thus overlooking structural weaknesses elsewhere. But this I mean the repetitious exposition of the plot's central deception - one scene of which Hitch was said to have belatedly realised as a mistake, failing to have it excised from the release print. As a misstep it is something which I find distracting each time I watch it. I'd strongly disagree that what you're referring to is a structural weakness. In fact, I think much of the film's genius hinges on the infamous early reveal, I think perhaps you misunderstand me. My objection is not to the early reveal, merely the the number of times the exposition of the main plot point is repeated, I counted three, albeit in different ways, I remember from the last time I saw it. In other words not the timing, just the structural and narrative redundancy of repeating/showing us what we already knew. At the very least we can say that Hitch knew there was a problem. But thank you for a most interesting and detailed answer and the link!
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on May 24, 2020 1:23:18 GMT
I'd strongly disagree that what you're referring to is a structural weakness. In fact, I think much of the film's genius hinges on the infamous early reveal, I think perhaps you misunderstand me. My objection is not to the early reveal, merely the the number of times the exposition of the main plot point is repeated, I counted three, albeit in different ways, I remember from the last time I saw it. In other words not the timing, just the structural and narrative redundancy of repeating/showing us what we already knew. At the very least we can say that Hitch knew there was a problem. But thank you for a most interesting and detailed answer and the link! Hmmm, I only know of two, one being the flashback/reveal, and the other being the end where Scottie is, errr, expositing all over Judy. What's the third?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 24, 2020 10:14:38 GMT
I think perhaps you misunderstand me. My objection is not to the early reveal, merely the the number of times the exposition of the main plot point is repeated, I counted three, albeit in different ways, I remember from the last time I saw it. In other words not the timing, just the structural and narrative redundancy of repeating/showing us what we already knew. At the very least we can say that Hitch knew there was a problem. But thank you for a most interesting and detailed answer and the link! Hmmm, I only know of two, one being the flashback/reveal, and the other being the end where Scottie is, errr, expositing all over Judy. What's the third? By a third I meant when we are then shown the act of deception, in addition to having been told about it twice. The tower exposition is essentially redundant - especially grievous this over-emphasis, when the film is not really 'about' the crime anyway, but the madness of infatuation. I'd leave it to Hitchcock's genius to decide when we are told the truth but he shoots himself in the foot imho by telling us again at the end regardless.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on May 24, 2020 11:45:04 GMT
Hmmm, I only know of two, one being the flashback/reveal, and the other being the end where Scottie is, errr, expositing all over Judy. What's the third? By a third I meant when we are then shown the act of deception, in addition to having been told about it twice. The tower exposition is essentially redundant - especially grievous this over-emphasis, when the film is not really 'about' the crime anyway, but the madness of infatuation. I'd leave it to Hitchcock's genius to decide when we are told the truth but he shoots himself in the foot imho by telling us again at the end regardless. Unless my memory's really foggy, the only time I know we're shown the deception is in the flashback. So that's the first reveal. The tower exposition is the second. You're saying there's a third, but unless I'm missing it (a possibility; it's rather late for me to be online and I'm a bit stoned atm!) I'm not seeing what the third is. One reason the tower exposition doesn't bother me too much is that, even though it is definitely expositional, it's also serving as the dramatic climax and confrontation between Scottie and Judy, and it's also happening during this dark, nightmarish ascent up the tower, which is all the time echoing back to the original ascent/death, but with a very different tone this time. So while it's fair to say that scene is expositional, it's also very much NOT just that.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 24, 2020 11:57:31 GMT
By a third I meant when we are then shown the act of deception, in addition to having been told about it twice. The tower exposition is essentially redundant - especially grievous this over-emphasis, when the film is not really 'about' the crime anyway, but the madness of infatuation. I'd leave it to Hitchcock's genius to decide when we are told the truth but he shoots himself in the foot imho by telling us again at the end regardless. Unless my memory's really foggy, the only time I know we're shown the deception is in the flashback. So that's the first reveal. The tower exposition is the second. You're saying there's a third, but unless I'm missing it (a possibility; it's rather late for me to be online and I'm a bit stoned atm!) I'm not seeing what the third is. One reason the tower exposition doesn't bother me too much is that, even though it is definitely expositional, it's also serving as the dramatic climax and confrontation between Scottie and Judy, and it's also happening during this dark, nightmarish ascent up the tower, which is all the time echoing back to the original ascent/death, but with a very different tone this time. So while it's fair to say that scene is expositional, it's also very much NOT just that. There is definitely a moment when we get to see the original deception played out on screen, tossing the dummy out; I think to illustrate the first exposition - unless I was too stoned as well, of course! In any case all I can do is relay my disappointment that the same plot exposition is relayed, at least twice - including in a scene over which Hitch himself had serious reservations.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on May 24, 2020 12:14:36 GMT
Unless my memory's really foggy, the only time I know we're shown the deception is in the flashback. So that's the first reveal. The tower exposition is the second. You're saying there's a third, but unless I'm missing it (a possibility; it's rather late for me to be online and I'm a bit stoned atm!) I'm not seeing what the third is. One reason the tower exposition doesn't bother me too much is that, even though it is definitely expositional, it's also serving as the dramatic climax and confrontation between Scottie and Judy, and it's also happening during this dark, nightmarish ascent up the tower, which is all the time echoing back to the original ascent/death, but with a very different tone this time. So while it's fair to say that scene is expositional, it's also very much NOT just that. There is definitely a moment when we get to see the original deception played out on screen, - unless I was too stoned as well, of course! In any case all I can do is relay my disappointment that the same plot exposition is relayed, at least twice - including in a scene over which Hitch himself had serious reservations! The original deception is played out during the flashback, and that's the scene I was talking about/defending earlier. That's also the scene Hitch had reservations about, but Vertigo is an incredibly different film (and, IMO, a lesser one) without that. You also can't nix the final tower ascent either. So if those are the only two reveals, I'm not sure how you can argue either should be cut. Well, scratch that, I can understand why some would argue the flashback should be cut, but I already had my say on why it should stay!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on May 24, 2020 12:31:28 GMT
There is definitely a moment when we get to see the original deception played out on screen, - unless I was too stoned as well, of course! In any case all I can do is relay my disappointment that the same plot exposition is relayed, at least twice - including in a scene over which Hitch himself had serious reservations! The original deception is played out during the flashback, and that's the scene I was talking about/defending earlier. That's also the scene Hitch had reservations about, but Vertigo is an incredibly different film (and, IMO, a lesser one) without that. You also can't nix the final tower ascent either. So if those are the only two reveals, I'm not sure how you can argue either should be cut. Well, scratch that, I can understand why some would argue the flashback should be cut, but I already had my say on why it should stay! That's it. (Sorry to be so vague: I'm gradually recalling my precise criticism of the structure just after a viewing from months back) My opinion was that the earlier reveal would have worked best, if it was to be included, by just showing the deception (in keeping with the film, when so much of it is to with observing) even if just in the mind's eye of the principals as they presumably discuss it, and leaving any detailed verbal accounting to the end with fraught exchanges in the tower. But, with what Hitch reluctantly left in, I remain to be convinced then why the plot needed more than a passing reference during the Tower scene since everyone - the characters and the audience - have already seen and heard all about it. What surely matters more then is the working out of the doomed, fraught love the two share and the ongoing irony of the latest events. You are quite right that the earlier reveal changes the film, just as the shocking early death in the shower of that whom we assumed was the principal character does in Psycho.
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Post by general313 on May 24, 2020 20:13:56 GMT
For fans of Vertigo, if you've never seen Nerdwriter's video analysis of this early scene in the movie, it's definitely worth a watch.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on May 25, 2020 0:56:28 GMT
The original deception is played out during the flashback, and that's the scene I was talking about/defending earlier. That's also the scene Hitch had reservations about, but Vertigo is an incredibly different film (and, IMO, a lesser one) without that. You also can't nix the final tower ascent either. So if those are the only two reveals, I'm not sure how you can argue either should be cut. Well, scratch that, I can understand why some would argue the flashback should be cut, but I already had my say on why it should stay! That's it. (Sorry to be so vague: I'm gradually recalling my precise criticism of the structure just after a viewing from months back) My opinion was that the earlier reveal would have worked best, if it was to be included, by just showing the deception (in keeping with the film, when so much of it is to with observing) even if just in the mind's eye of the principals as they presumably discuss it, and leaving any detailed verbal accounting to the end with fraught exchanges in the tower. But, with what Hitch reluctantly left in, I remain to be convinced then why the plot needed more than a passing reference during the Tower scene since everyone - the characters and the audience - have already seen and heard all about it. What surely matters more then is the working out of the doomed, fraught love the two share and the ongoing irony of the latest events. You are quite right that the earlier reveal changes the film, just as the shocking early death in the shower of that whom we assumed was the principal character does in Psycho. I get what you're saying now. Not sure how he could've done the flashback purely visually since it's initiated by Judy's letter writing. As for the final tower scene, like I said, it's definitely repeating the exposition we already know, but there's a lot of other stuff going on there too besides that so it doesn't bother me too much. Maybe they could've treated it more as a climactic dialogue dealing with the emotions involved rather than just having Scottie repeat the events to Judy, but I guess it just doesn't bother me all that much. Still a masterpiece and in my top 10 either way.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on May 25, 2020 0:57:48 GMT
For fans of Vertigo, if you've never seen Nerdwriter's video analysis of this early scene in the movie, it's definitely worth a watch. Saw that a while ago. It's a good watch. There was also a funny video that parodied it using The Room:
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Post by thefleetsin on May 27, 2020 15:58:01 GMT
mouthing the words to seldom is heard
of course from a nation that brought us amalgamated layers of a perpetually fear laced analogy revolving around all those things you'll never see but have been reminded of day in and day out by the exhorting shout from patriots propped up by a clot that had everything to do with wiping anyone out who looks mean towards you.
we now have a virus that's lulled you into believing there's a god in your accounts receiving who just cant wait to replay love lies bleeding while waiting for those clouds receding from all those sunsets you're only now appreciating for the very first time.
never realizing you can't be the scene of a crime and expect to shine as if loyalty was a shiny new dime falling from a slot machine where your latest mafia dean saw himself in a scene reading golf digest magazine off the botoxed ass of a hooker he picked up while his sons were in class pretending to learn something other than how to promote my rich white ass while looking as if i could care less.
needless to say at this point there's a whole disjoint between what's the point and where america is being steered to. and it's not about who gets to be the wealthiest jew? or how many italians does it take to shine a pair of shoes? or if your momma was a wardrobe closet the titanic would have had no human losses.
for it's always been the sense of humor in: the spaces between those three wooden crosses.
sjw 05/27/2020 inspired at this very moment in time by set your senses of humor to stun.
from the 'benevolent series' of poems
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