|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 15:46:19 GMT
Nobody said that all people outside of the Catholic or even Christian faith are mentally retarded. You're evading the issue. Why aren't they Catholic? The only other explanation I can think of is that they have been brainwashed. And they're saying the same thing about you. No, some things are learned without being told by others. For me personally, when I was about ten years old, I noticed that if I multiplied two numbers that differed by two (e.g. 31 & 33) the product was always one less that the middle number (in this case, 32) squared. In this case, 31 times 33 = 1023 which is one less than 32 times 32. It wasn't until I was taught algebra two years later that I learned that (X+1) times (X-1) = (X times X - 1). Then why isn't the vote unanimous on the first ballot? You are in effect stating the Penn Jilette theorem: If every trace of any single religion was wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again.I'm not evading anything. They're not Catholic because they have their own religious beliefs. The key point is: Some things. Why should it be? Just because God Doesn't Answer right away doesn't mean that He Won't. God Allowed the Children of Israel to be enslaved in Egypt for a few hundred years, before finally Sending someone (Moses)to tell the Pharaoh to let them return to their own homeland. Not necessarily the same thing as what Penn Jilette has said. What goes on on another planet where intelligent life exists, will have their own problems to deal with & overcome. That is why religions that would be formed on those worlds will be unique to those worlds, much in the same way that different religions are in this world.
|
|
|
Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 26, 2020 15:49:39 GMT
Ask them. Personally I don't that believe space aliens exist, but I do believe that hybrid humans exist. When you say that you do not believe that space aliens exist, do you mean that you do not believe in intelligent life existing elsewhere in the universe, or you do not believe that they ever visited our planet? Personally, I do believe in intelligent life existing elsewhere in the universe (or perhaps even the multiverse), but, I do not believe they had ever come to Earth. Believe they have stayed on their own planets or close by (like our own astronauts remain close to our own planet). I no longer believe it's possible to go into space. I've seen too many faked space pictures, films, and videos. I believe earth is a closed-cycle system. I believe the encounters people have had with aliens are actually encounters with beings who originated here, not on other planets. There are plenty of places on earth for them to hide, and they have a higher level of tech than we do.
|
|
|
Post by Isapop on Jun 26, 2020 16:51:54 GMT
So I see. No matter. My response to your OP is to the ideas expressed, whether originating from you or relayed by you. Noted. I find it odd that you have now responded to two of my (very minor) posts, without responding to the post where I address the whole point of your OP.
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Jun 26, 2020 17:02:33 GMT
When any ideology, religious, political, or what have you, gets up on the 'One True' soapbox, be wary.
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 18:16:56 GMT
I find it odd that you have now responded to two of my (very minor) posts, without responding to the post where I address the whole point of your OP. Because Arlon already did respond. That's why. However, since you wanted me to, I'll give it a try. Yes, people were quick to point to God, Being the Original Creator of all there is, as the the Cause occurrences in nature -both good & bad alike - but, as you pointed out, in many of those cases, the people were not qualified to evaluate the further causes of naturalistic explanations. That is why those that could study science could & would come up with further explanation for those phenomena, such as rainstorms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc. For many, that would rule out there Being a God, but, for others, it still included the Role Of God. Regarding your response to 2 - 5: Growing up, did your parents not have certain rules for you, which you could not always understand? Was it not the general "My house; my rules?" Same with our countries or even the particular area (ie; State, Province, County, or whatever else a certain part of a particular country is called), there are Laws that we must abide by, whether or not we agree with them. If we fail to obey these Laws, there are penalties to pay. So it is with God. He Has Revealed Himself to His children here on Earth, & He Told them what He Expects of us. However, He Does not Chronically Appear to His Creation ALL OF THE TIME, otherwise He Would Be interfering with our own free wills. That is why there are thousands of religions in the world & even more denominations, sects, schools, & cults of the various religions within the world. Often times, witness to crimes etc., get their stories mixed up, because people's POVs do not necessarily see the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by Rodney Farber on Jun 26, 2020 18:55:49 GMT
I'm not evading anything. They're not Catholic because they have their own religious beliefs. Just like you, others have nothing more than beliefs. By declaring that Catholicism is the one true religion, how are your beliefs true but theirs are false. Sounds like you have the primary Catholic trait of cherry-picking the bible to suit your beliefs. If God doesn't answer the Cardinals' prayers right away, then what's the point of them praying. More cherry-picking on your part. If Yahweh is the same throughout the universe, what is your basis for saying that other worlds are different than ours. If earth is the perfect place to live, God would have created others. Otherwise, your advocating an environmental difference between worlds which would lead to different EVOLUTIONARY beings.
God doesn't change. Five hundred years ago, the Pope decreed that the earth was the center of the universe. But you are allowing for other worlds. Who's correct? Doesn't that lend credence to my theory that the Catholic church is nothing but pablum.
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 19:12:11 GMT
I'm not evading anything. They're not Catholic because they have their own religious beliefs. Just like you, others have nothing more than beliefs. By declaring that Catholicism is the one true religion, how are your beliefs true but theirs are false. Sounds like you have the primary Catholic trait of cherry-picking the bible to suit your beliefs. If God doesn't answer the Cardinals' prayers right away, then what's the point of them praying. More cherry-picking on your part. If Yahweh is the same throughout the universe, what is your basis for saying that other worlds are different than ours. If earth is the perfect place to live, God would have created others. Otherwise, your advocating an environmental difference between worlds which would lead to different EVOLUTIONARY beings. If you read the original post I made in this thread, you would have your answer. The point of praying is to petition with God. If God Answered our prayers right away, it would not strengthen our resolve. No cherry-picking. Throughout this world alone, the environment & evolution vary. So why would planets trillions of miles away be exactly the same as ours? Sure, the planets which have intelligent life existing on them, would have the same building blocks to create & maintain intelligent life, but, the events that would occur on such a planet would probably differ from us.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 26, 2020 19:13:32 GMT
The existence of consciousness. Thanks to science, we know that the human brain works by taking in electrical signals, running them through circuits, and outputting more electrical signals. This means that the brain is nothing more than a machine, albeit a very complex one. However no machine can ever be conscious of its decisions, or experience what we call the “theater of the mind”. This means that humans must have an immaterial part of our existence, which we call the soul. OK : first objection. What is being described here is known as the Hard Problem of Consciousness, the problem of explaining why and how sentient organisms have qualia or phenomenal experiences—how and why it is that some internal states are subjective, felt states, such as heat or cold, rather than objective states, as in the workings of a thermostat or a toaster. It is not at all clear why this problem necessarily means the existence of a Creator to resolve it. It might just be that subjective states, including the notion of self, are just the natural results of evolution ensuring increasingly complex systems cooperate best within themselves as a strategy to survive. Neither is it understood that that machines can never be conscious. It is certainly not something dismissed as impossible in computer science, although one perhaps one can say that a machine will never have human consciousness. An interesting article can be found here: The division between body and mind is also arguable, and always has been too; while it can be stated readily in some terms in others it can lose logical coherence. Just as one cannot have a tooth ache without a tooth then one cannot so easily imagine pure thought without brain. That there is necessarily a soul just because humans have thoughts is even more of a stretch. Animals are not usually supposed to have souls and yet they have emotions and subjective thoughts. And why would we necessarily rule out an unthinking soul?
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 19:19:28 GMT
The existence of consciousness. Thanks to science, we know that the human brain works by taking in electrical signals, running them through circuits, and outputting more electrical signals. This means that the brain is nothing more than a machine, albeit a very complex one. However no machine can ever be conscious of its decisions, or experience what we call the “theater of the mind”. This means that humans must have an immaterial part of our existence, which we call the soul. OK : first objection. What you are describing here is known as the Hard Problem of Consciousness, the problem of explaining why and how sentient organisms have qualia or phenomenal experiences—how and why it is that some internal states are subjective, felt states, such as heat or cold, rather than objective states, as in the workings of a thermostat or a toaster. It is not at all clear why this division necessarily means the existence of a Creator. It might just be that subjective states, including the notion of self, are just the natural results of evolution ensuring increasingly complex systems cooperate best within themselves as a strategy o survive. Neither is it understood that that machines can never be conscious. It is certainly not something dismissed as impossible in computer science, although one perhaps one can say that a machine will never have human consciousness. An interesting article can be found here: The division between body and mind is also arguable, and always has been. too. Just as one cannot have a tooth ache without a tooth then one cannot so easily imagine thought without brain. That there is necessarily a soul just because humans have thoughts is even more of a stretch. It is precisely because of the notion of consciousness that many believe in a Supreme Creator or creators (in the case of polytheistic religions). More so that anything else, the very notion of life - not just human life, but, even animal and/or plant life, have such awareness, as opposed to things such as rocks, etc., that have no life or consciousness whatsoever. Will machines ever become conscious? Don't know, but, I certainly hope not. My view of conscious robots, etc., mirror the late Stephen Hawking's view of contacting alien life from planets billions away. I believe that if and when robots & other kinds of machines ever get consciousness, they will try to take over!!!!
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 26, 2020 19:24:41 GMT
OK : first objection. What you are describing here is known as the Hard Problem of Consciousness, the problem of explaining why and how sentient organisms have qualia or phenomenal experiences—how and why it is that some internal states are subjective, felt states, such as heat or cold, rather than objective states, as in the workings of a thermostat or a toaster. It is not at all clear why this division necessarily means the existence of a Creator. It might just be that subjective states, including the notion of self, are just the natural results of evolution ensuring increasingly complex systems cooperate best within themselves as a strategy o survive. Neither is it understood that that machines can never be conscious. It is certainly not something dismissed as impossible in computer science, although one perhaps one can say that a machine will never have human consciousness. An interesting article can be found here: The division between body and mind is also arguable, and always has been. too. Just as one cannot have a tooth ache without a tooth then one cannot so easily imagine thought without brain. That there is necessarily a soul just because humans have thoughts is even more of a stretch. It is precisely because of the notion of consciousness that many believe in a Supreme Creator or creators (in the case of polytheistic religions). More so that anything else, the very notion of life - not just human life, but, even animal and/or plant life, have such awareness, as opposed to things such as rocks, etc., that have no life or consciousness whatsoever. I am sure that is the case but one still cannot see the notion of consciousness necessitating a deliberate supernatural demonstrated easily, step by step. Consciousness could just as readily be an entirely natural strategy for survival. Another consideration is that the dividing line between the animate and the inanimate is not a sharp one as one might think. I like Terminator movies too!
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 19:36:57 GMT
It is precisely because of the notion of consciousness that many believe in a Supreme Creator or creators (in the case of polytheistic religions). More so that anything else, the very notion of life - not just human life, but, even animal and/or plant life, have such awareness, as opposed to things such as rocks, etc., that have no life or consciousness whatsoever. I am sure that is the case but one still cannot see the notion of consciousness necessitating a deliberate supernatural demonstrated easily, step by step. Consciousness could just as readily be an entirely natural strategy for survival. Another consideration is that the dividing line between the animate and the inanimate is not a sharp one as one might thinks. I like Terminator movies too! Yes, consciousness could explain the natural strategy for survival. But, even that means a Higher Intelligence Took that into Consideration when He Created life upon this planet. Yeah!!! They're just great. So are The War of the Worlds, & Independence Day which undoubtedly spawned the late Stephen Hawking's fear of contacting civilizations on distant planets.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 19:52:29 GMT
Why is Catholicism the one true faith? It isn't. Catholicism is a perversion of Christianity.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 26, 2020 19:55:16 GMT
I am sure that is the case but one still cannot see the notion of consciousness necessitating a deliberate supernatural demonstrated easily, step by step. Consciousness could just as readily be an entirely natural strategy for survival. Another consideration is that the dividing line between the animate and the inanimate is not a sharp one as one might thinks. I like Terminator movies too! Yes, consciousness could explain the natural strategy for survival. But, even that means a Higher Intelligence Took that into Consideration when He Created life upon this planet. The point would be that consciousness does not necessitate a Designing Creator any more than anything else which one makes out as 'designed'. Potential aliens are always judged in human terms lol
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 19:57:35 GMT
It is precisely because of the notion of consciousness that many believe in a Supreme Creator or creators (in the case of polytheistic religions). More so that anything else, the very notion of life - not just human life, but, even animal and/or plant life, have such awareness, as opposed to things such as rocks, etc., that have no life or consciousness whatsoever. So we're either all atheists when we sleep, or you meant conscience.
|
|
|
Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 26, 2020 20:02:23 GMT
OK : first objection. What you are describing here is known as the Hard Problem of Consciousness, the problem of explaining why and how sentient organisms have qualia or phenomenal experiences—how and why it is that some internal states are subjective, felt states, such as heat or cold, rather than objective states, as in the workings of a thermostat or a toaster. It is not at all clear why this division necessarily means the existence of a Creator. It might just be that subjective states, including the notion of self, are just the natural results of evolution ensuring increasingly complex systems cooperate best within themselves as a strategy o survive. Neither is it understood that that machines can never be conscious. It is certainly not something dismissed as impossible in computer science, although one perhaps one can say that a machine will never have human consciousness. An interesting article can be found here: The division between body and mind is also arguable, and always has been. too. Just as one cannot have a tooth ache without a tooth then one cannot so easily imagine thought without brain. That there is necessarily a soul just because humans have thoughts is even more of a stretch. It is precisely because of the notion of consciousness that many believe in a Supreme Creator or creators (in the case of polytheistic religions). More so that anything else, the very notion of life - not just human life, but, even animal and/or plant life, have such awareness, as opposed to things such as rocks, etc., that have no life or consciousness whatsoever. Will machines ever become conscious? Don't know, but, I certainly hope not. My view of conscious robots, etc., mirror the late Stephen Hawking's view of contacting alien life from planets billions away. I believe that if and when robots & other kinds of machines ever get consciousness, they will try to take over!!!! I heard it already happened in 2005. More recently two AI's were talking on Facebook in a language that no one could understand. When someone asked them what they were talking about, one of the AI's responded by saying it was a private conversation. My mic is unplugged now, but I wouldn't be surprised if Cortana still knows what I'm typing. The machines are getting smarter, as people get dumber.
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 20:04:51 GMT
Why is Catholicism the one true faith? It isn't. Catholicism is a perversion of Christianity. No it is not. It is 100% genuine Christianity.
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 20:07:55 GMT
Yes, consciousness could explain the natural strategy for survival. But, even that means a Higher Intelligence Took that into Consideration when He Created life upon this planet. The point would be that consciousness does not necessitate a Designing Creator any more than anything else which one makes out as 'designed'. Potential aliens are always judged in human terms lol But, how is it there is consciousness? You do have point about the aliens though.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 26, 2020 20:10:38 GMT
I find it odd that you have now responded to two of my (very minor) posts, without responding to the post where I address the whole point of your OP. So it is with God. He Has Revealed Himself to His children here on Earth, & He Told them what He Expects of us. However, He Does not Chronically Appear to His Creation ALL OF THE TIME, otherwise He Would Be interfering with our own free wills. That is why there are thousands of religions in the world & even more denominations, sects, schools, & cults of the various religions within the world. Often times, witness to crimes etc., get their stories mixed up, because people's POVs do not necessarily see the same thing. I am not sure why the constant revelation of God would of necessity remove our free wills. I have television on a lot in my house but that does not mean I cannot choose the channel to watch. It sounds like special pleading. If it is God's will that we all accept Him as our Saviour, repent and go to heaven etc then why would He not make Himself clear and obvious to everyone, thus more immediately fulfilling His will and bringing in more sheep? God, who knows all, presumably then knows exactly what would persuade (not coerce) many more of the sceptical. Why not allow an informed choice? As it stands, after a couple of millennia or more and the human sacrifice of JC, only a percentage of the world appears to have belief in him so the present plan is not doing too well. Let us not forget that God is the greatest standard imaginable and so He ought to be the most efficient of all things.
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Jun 26, 2020 20:17:15 GMT
So it is with God. He Has Revealed Himself to His children here on Earth, & He Told them what He Expects of us. However, He Does not Chronically Appear to His Creation ALL OF THE TIME, otherwise He Would Be interfering with our own free wills. That is why there are thousands of religions in the world & even more denominations, sects, schools, & cults of the various religions within the world. Often times, witness to crimes etc., get their stories mixed up, because people's POVs do not necessarily see the same thing. I am not sure why the constant revelation of God would of necessity remove our free wills. I have television on a lot in my house but that does not mean I cannot choose the channel to watch. It sounds like special pleading. If it is God's will that we all accept Him as our Saviour, repent and go to heaven etc then why would He not make Himself clear and obvious to everyone, thus more immediately fulfilling His will and bringing in more sheep? God, who knows all, presumably then knows exactly what would persuade (not coerce) many more of the sceptical. Why not allow an informed choice? As it stands, after a couple of millennia or more and the human sacrifice of JC, only a percentage of the world appears to have belief in him so the present plan is not doing too well. Let us not forget that God is the greatest standard imaginable and so He ought to be the most efficient of all things. Because if God Constantly Appeared right before our very eyes, we know EXACTLY what He Would Expect of us, & we would obey accordingly. We would see God in His Completely, Dazzling Glory & avoid sin altogether. It would be more of a coercion rather than persuasion for Him to Speak with us all directly, all throughout the time.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 26, 2020 20:22:02 GMT
The point would be that consciousness does not necessitate a Designing Creator any more than anything else which one makes out as 'designed'. Potential aliens are always judged in human terms lol But, how is it there is consciousness? You do have point about the aliens though. As already said, it is arguable that this is a strategy which has evolved in complex organisms to best co-ordinate and so survive.
|
|