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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 15, 2020 18:27:31 GMT
But what if the world of one's parents is a world of fear and dread and shame? For several years that is really the only world the child knows, or at least that is the world of overriding impact. Eventually, hopefully, the child can learn socialization and want to know other people and at some point come to comprehend that there is a lot more in the world than fear. I don't think this scenario is far fetched, either. Sometimes, for me, life feels like it's just a whole lot of undoing learned bad habits and retraining the dysfunctional lessons and attitudes my parents taught me. And while I don't want to be blaming them, I also don't feel all that compelled to feel very appreciative, hence my post, which asked not only about respect, but also about appreciation. Nobody except Amyghost has cited the notion of appreciation, which really is on a par with respect. To whatever degree I am a solid person with an okay life, I'm the one who made it happen. Certainly not my parents. Same goes for many people. Sometimes it seems like the whole idea of being given life is akin to cleaning up somebody else's mess. All the change that is required to make it happen is a lot of work and about 95% comes from within the person themselves. I would love it if, for example, some Oscar winner got up there and in his acceptance speech went down the list and thanked whomever he felt had helped him, but then at the end saved the biggest thanks for he himself. It likely wouldn't go over well, but it would be honest and true. (Not to mention refreshing) The person makes it happen. When our parents give us life, they are also presenting us with the biggest challenge of them all. And not everybody is up to that challenge. This is just one point of view, but it compels me. Well, regardless of all the problems and dysfunction which happen later in life, our mothers did give birth to us and tend to us in infancy when we were defenseless. I believe that should instill a certain respect. That is unless of course our parents were animals who abandoned us. And that's rare. Most parents do take it seriously that there is a small life dependent on them.
So by its very existential nature, there is a bond and some respect due. And that applies to fathers who stayed with the mother and helped her while she was burdened with pregnancy and raising an infant.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a family which isn't dysfunctional to one degree or another. And it might even be that parents who strive to be perfect end up being over protective and manipulative and are ironically the most dysfunctional of all.
Sure, if there is egregious abuse (and I'm not talking about a father who didn't play ball with his child) then that initial bond and respect is broken. But for most of us, that fact they are our biological parents who protected us in the beginning by itself deserves respect regardless of what happened later.
I do not feel that a person owes their parents any respect because they fed us, changed our diapers and protected us from the elements. That is very basic stuff and they OWE their child this much and more because it was THEIR decision to reproduce. Emphasis on the word THEIR, as opposed to OUR. One person says to another "you owe your parents respect because they gave you life" to which the second person replies "well, I don't much like the life my parents gave" to which the first person will undoubtedly reply "well, it's up to you to make your life better". That life that you never asked for in the first place. It could be said that the first person's argument/point of view is weak. Like I said, sometimes being given life is like cleaning up somebody else's mess. I remember reading a long time ago about an Oriental custom where if a person is attempting a suicide and another person interferes with the person's intentions and stops the suicide from its completion, then the second person is thereby held entirely responsible for the person's well-being for the rest of his life. An entirely different point of view and I get it.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 15, 2020 18:54:08 GMT
But what if the world of one's parents is a world of fear and dread and shame? For several years that is really the only world the child knows, or at least that is the world of overriding impact. Eventually, hopefully, the child can learn socialization and want to know other people and at some point come to comprehend that there is a lot more in the world than fear. I don't think this scenario is far fetched, either. Sometimes, for me, life feels like it's just a whole lot of undoing learned bad habits and retraining the dysfunctional lessons and attitudes my parents taught me. And while I don't want to be blaming them, I also don't feel all that compelled to feel very appreciative, hence my post, which asked not only about respect, but also about appreciation. Nobody except Amyghost has cited the notion of appreciation, which really is on a par with respect. To whatever degree I am a solid person with an okay life, I'm the one who made it happen. Certainly not my parents. Same goes for many people. Sometimes it seems like the whole idea of being given life is akin to cleaning up somebody else's mess. All the change that is required to make it happen is a lot of work and about 95% comes from within the person themselves. I would love it if, for example, some Oscar winner got up there and in his acceptance speech went down the list and thanked whomever he felt had helped him, but then at the end saved the biggest thanks for he himself. It likely wouldn't go over well, but it would be honest and true. (Not to mention refreshing) The person makes it happen. When our parents give us life, they are also presenting us with the biggest challenge of them all. And not everybody is up to that challenge. This is just one point of view, but it compels me. Well, regardless of all the problems and dysfunction which happen later in life, our mothers did give birth to us and tend to us in infancy when we were defenseless. I believe that should instill a certain respect. That is unless of course our parents were animals who abandoned us. And that's rare. Most parents do take it seriously that there is a small life dependent on them.
So by its very existential nature, there is a bond and some respect due. And that applies to fathers who stayed with the mother and helped her while she was burdened with pregnancy and raising an infant.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a family which isn't dysfunctional to one degree or another. And it might even be that parents who strive to be perfect end up being over protective and manipulative and are ironically the most dysfunctional of all.
Sure, if there is egregious abuse (and I'm not talking about a father who didn't play ball with his child) then that initial bond and respect is broken. But for most of us, that fact they are our biological parents who protected us in the beginning by itself deserves respect regardless of what happened later.
I agree with some of the things you have said here. And I get the existential angle. But I think we're sorta coming from two different places. The most interesting thing you said, I think, is the notion that parents who strive for unrealistic perfection end up being overprotective and manipulative. So true. I'm going to take this a couple steps further and say that these parents will give their child initial life, i.e., birth, and then proceed to do everything in their power and in their perceived rights as parents to squash that life. The parents extinguish the child's spirit. In his book, "Christine", Stephen King said, via the protagonist, that there is something about human nature that will cause parents to want to kill their children. It might take a bit of mental shifting to get to that kind of thinking, and it's not a very constructive point of view, and, sure, it's dark, but Stephen King is not a stupid person.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jul 15, 2020 19:51:58 GMT
I really hate it when people say stuff like you have to respect your parents no mater what as some people do.
I respect my mother, but i will never respect my father.
Not all parents are worthy of their child's respect.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 15, 2020 20:05:57 GMT
I really hate it when people say stuff like you have to respect your parents no mater what as some people do. I respect my mother, but i will never respect my father. Not all parents are worthy of their child's respect. I hate it, too. These people say that children must respect their parents no matter what. Which is ironic as saying that is utterly disrespectful of the person's feelings and their point of view. And it invalidates the person's experience. Everybody is coming from a different place.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 15, 2020 20:25:36 GMT
I agree with some of the things you have said here. And I get the existential angle. But I think we're sorta coming from two different places. The most interesting thing you said, I think, is the notion that parents who strive for unrealistic perfection end up being overprotective and manipulative. So true. I'm going to take this a couple steps further and say that these parents will give their child initial life, i.e., birth, and then proceed to do everything in their power and in their perceived rights as parents to squash that life. The parents extinguish the child's spirit. In his book, "Christine", Stephen King said, via the protagonist, that there is something about human nature that will cause parents to want to kill their children. It might take a bit of mental shifting to get to that kind of thinking, and it's not a very constructive point of view, and, sure, it's dark, but Stephen King is not a stupid person. You're describing "egregious" there though.
For example, when I became an openly gay adult, this created a strain on my relationship with my father. I was also very bitter over his lack of parental skills while I was growing up. I mean he always supported me financially and gave me a secure environment. But he was emotionally never there for me. So I hated him.
As he got old and I became a more mature adult, we repaired our relationship. But that was only possible because there was that underlying father/son respect. That's why I'm saying it's default unless the parent does something too extreme to break that. And a father being upset because his son is gay still does not cancel out the earlier bond of respect. It's just respect in need of analysis and repair.
Well, when I was 7 or 8 years old, my anti-gay dad, who had obviously figured out that he had a gay son on his hands, told me that in the near future "they" ( ) were going to take all the "queers" on an island and drop a nuclear bomb on the island to kill all the "queers", at which he expressed his full approval. I really can't say what my reaction was to this at such a young age. I didn't know what "gay" was, but I pretty much knew what my dad was talking about. He was talking about me. In his very misguided and fucked up way, he thought he could scare me out of being queer. Guess what, pop, it didn't work, for which I will always be deliriously grateful. Lots of other examples of him trying to instill fear in his kids. And it would all be easier to take if... 1) he could acknowledge some of his actions (I wouldn't expect an apology from him as he is incapable of apologizing. Some kind of half assed acknowledgement would be enough for me.) and... 2) if he didn't still do these types of things. But at this stage of the game, he is not going to change. Yet, to add even more insult to injury, he seems to always be bashing his own dad (who passed away in 1969) left and right and he makes it a point to tell me that he most emphatically does not forgive his dad. He even blames his dad for his marriage to my mom. (My parents were in no way compatible. They were temperamentally opposite. Jack Sprat and his fat wife...) He says if it weren't for HIS dad he would have married his high school sweetheart. On the other hand, my mom once told my dad that the only reason she married him is because her mother hated him. Not very nice. But the irony of complaining for 50 years about his own father to his own son is completely lost on Dad. The few times I have confronted my parents, they did not respond well. My mom's routine was to become hysterical in order to shift the focus off her. My dad's style was to leave the room and be in a rotten mood for the next week. When I told them I voted for Obama in 2008, they said - half-jokingly - that they were going to disown me. They were deeply disturbed. But if a fellow is lucky he will discover his gifts and learn how to use them to lighten the burden.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 16, 2020 20:23:19 GMT
Well, when I was 7 or 8 years old, my anti-gay dad, who had obviously figured out that he had a gay son on his hands, told me that in the near future "they" ( ) were going to take all the "queers" on an island and drop a nuclear bomb on the island to kill all the "queers", at which he expressed his full approval. I really can't say what my reaction was to this at such a young age. I didn't know what "gay" was, but I pretty much knew what my dad was talking about. He was talking about me. In his very misguided and fucked up way, he thought he could scare me out of being queer. Guess what, pop, it didn't work, for which I will always be deliriously grateful. Lots of other examples of him trying to instill fear in his kids. And it would all be easier to take if... 1) he could acknowledge some of his actions (I wouldn't expect an apology from him as he is incapable of apologizing. Some kind of half assed acknowledgement would be enough for me.) and... 2) if he didn't still do these types of things. But at this stage of the game, he is not going to change. Yet, to add even more insult to injury, he seems to always be bashing his own dad (who passed away in 1969) left and right and he makes it a point to tell me that he most emphatically does not forgive his dad. He even blames his dad for his marriage to my mom. (My parents were in no way compatible. They were temperamentally opposite. Jack Sprat and his fat wife...) He says if it weren't for HIS dad he would have married his high school sweetheart. On the other hand, my mom once told my dad that the only reason she married him is because her mother hated him. Not very nice. But the irony of complaining for 50 years about his own father to his own son is completely lost on Dad. The few times I have confronted my parents, they did not respond well. My mom's routine was to become hysterical in order to shift the focus off her. My dad's style was to leave the room and be in a rotten mood for the next week. When I told them I voted for Obama in 2008, they said - half-jokingly - that they were going to disown me. They were deeply disturbed. But if a fellow is lucky he will discover his gifts and learn how to use them to lighten the burden. Do you respect your father and mother though? I checked the second box. "Not necessarily" For reasons I've been giving and more.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 17, 2020 3:16:09 GMT
I checked the second box. "Not necessarily" For reasons I've been giving and more. I checked yes, but not merely because they "gave us life". It's not black and white. That's true. It's not black and white. It can be very complicated. That's a reason why I started the thread. I knew there would be a variety of responses. Everybody has their point of view on this.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 17, 2020 4:06:23 GMT
Absolutely not. Respect must be earned. I never respected my parents and still don't. My mother told me many times and in so many words that she hated me and displayed that hatred constantly. How does someone like that deserve respect? I'm sorry. I hope you have some kind and supportive people in your life at this stage.
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Post by ck100 on Jul 17, 2020 4:50:48 GMT
Parents shouldn't automatically get their children's respect just because they're the parents. They should earn it through being good parents to their children.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 17, 2020 4:56:25 GMT
That's true. It's not black and white. It can be very complicated. That's a reason why I started the thread. I knew there would be a variety of responses. Everybody has their point of view on this. Well, I'm happy and it was good for me as a man to settle things with my father before he died. We became somewhat close. We had never ever discussed that I was queer. He knew but a man of his generation didn't talk about such things. But iIf I had harbored that anger towards him after he was gone, I would only be hurting myself. It was great to let it go. My mother was a classic madonna figure, protective but also supportive of my independence. Gameboy mom, all good. Gameboy mom, make food.
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Post by moviemouth on Jul 17, 2020 5:58:52 GMT
Respect and admiration have to be earned.
Anybody who says otherwise is wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion. If a parent beats or molests their kids, they not only don't deserve respect, they deserve the opposite.
Anybody who disagrees will lose my respect.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 17, 2020 17:13:00 GMT
Excuse me? My mom encouraged my independence but I could always depend on her. My dad was an asshole but I'm not a perpetual child so I got over it.
I think what we see on this thread is a lot of adults who need to stop blaming their parents for their own self-inflicted misery. In other words, GROW THE FUCK UP.
You said you had an ideal Madonna type for a mother. It was just a bit of good-natured ribbing from me. I think you can take it. Telling somebody to GROW THE FUCK UP is not conducive to getting any results. It's nothing more than you venting. Of course, that's your prerogative. But just know that the rest of us can vent here as well. Besides that wasn't the gist of the OP. One more thing. If you did have such a wonderful mother, then I'd say it is sort of tacky of you to judge those who didn't. Just be grateful.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 17, 2020 22:29:40 GMT
Most the gay males I know have a very intense relationship with their mother. They're usually very tied to her. But there are those who hate their mother with a vengeance, which tells me there is a close connection nonetheless.
I bring up my father because he was not a good father. He payed all the bills and he never cheated on my mother. And he was physically there but never emotionally there for me. That's why I use him as an example. Because I did hate him for years and did not respect him.
Now, let me also say there was no physical abuse and no sexual abuse in my home. I can't relate to that and I don't tell anyone to respect parents who abused them to such a degree.
I will say my father psychologically abused me through his negligence. However, I learned that it was important for myself as a man, to get past my resentment. and I did. And I'm glad I did. He made mistakes. I made my mistakes. But the genetic and familial connection is so strong with one's parents, that we must try and hold onto a certain existential respect, for ourselves, not necessarily for them. I tell you this because you may be able to do as I did, and repair your relationships. And you will be better off for it.
I can appreciate your good thought, but I started the thread because I wanted to know where people stood regarding parents and respect. This really was not about love or affection. I get along with my dad. He can be a lot of fun. And I know that he loves me and he is supportive. Our relationship isn't in need of repair. And my dad is 75, so I can't even imagine what kind of change he would be capable of. Not that I expect him to change. If anything, I came here seeking company in my opinion, as this can be soothing as well as reinforcing. If I respect him for anything, it was his devotion to my mother. He stood by her through everything. I wanted to know if there are people out there who believe that one should respect AND APPRECIATE one's parents, more or less on principle. Once in a while I will hear "They're your parents, they gave you life, you must respect them..." and that rubs me the wrong way. Like I said in an earlier post, if I am feeling resentful, the easiest way past that, personally speaking, is to imagine what the person went through in their own upbringing. It really does soften the blow. And I was glad to get the feedback.
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Post by amyghost on Jul 18, 2020 19:29:37 GMT
Here is my cynical take: I don’t care much for the breeder mentality and for whatever reasons they choose to have kids, is more often than not born out of their own ignorance, or even self-gratification. For the mother, it may also be to claim some dibs on ownership of the father. The father may also be living up to an expected image of societal construct. Breeding is only born out of heterosexual understanding of what life represents and more often than not, I don’t see them often doing the right or best things for their kids. Parents can only do their best within their own means of what they know, but is that good enough? I have love for my parents and that connection is undeniable and what other choice is there, but I struggle very hard to find respect for them as PARENTS. They have not emotionally matured in their lives and the power role and control games are still ever so apparent. I get an existential sense of ownership from their part of my life due to what they see as being the reason for my human being, yet that is only their understanding of being from their limited and dense breeder mindset. They DID NOT REALLY KNOW what they were doing. They left me floundering by the time I was out of my teens and swept things under the rug by going into denial. Spending a large chunk of my later teen years and early 20’s in a state of depression with constant thoughts of suicide, does not indicate a healthy parental conditioning that is worthy of respect. While I acknowledge my own responsibility for any actions taken and consequences, many of these things were born out of confusion of my own life, due to inadequate parenting from their own growth level. Far too much child-breeding occurs for reasons that have little or nothing to do with the desire to raise a good person, and all too often too much to do with selfish, thoughtless, or conformist rationales. I don't dislike kids, but I'm willing to bet that our world would be a better place if there were far fewer births each year--and I'm equally convinced that well over half of those who produced children would, if they could go back and do it over again, have not had them. It's horrifying how frequently those who have kids have not really thought through or even given much mature consideration at all to the commitment they're making, and all it entails.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 18, 2020 21:08:14 GMT
Here is my cynical take: I don’t care much for the breeder mentality and for whatever reasons they choose to have kids, is more often than not born out of their own ignorance, or even self-gratification. For the mother, it may also be to claim some dibs on ownership of the father. The father may also be living up to an expected image of societal construct. Breeding is only born out of heterosexual understanding of what life represents and more often than not, I don’t see them often doing the right or best things for their kids. Parents can only do their best within their own means of what they know, but is that good enough? I have love for my parents and that connection is undeniable and what other choice is there, but I struggle very hard to find respect for them as PARENTS. They have not emotionally matured in their lives and the power role and control games are still ever so apparent. I get an existential sense of ownership from their part of my life due to what they see as being the reason for my human being, yet that is only their understanding of being from their limited and dense breeder mindset. They DID NOT REALLY KNOW what they were doing. They left me floundering by the time I was out of my teens and swept things under the rug by going into denial. Spending a large chunk of my later teen years and early 20’s in a state of depression with constant thoughts of suicide, does not indicate a healthy parental conditioning that is worthy of respect. While I acknowledge my own responsibility for any actions taken and consequences, many of these things were born out of confusion of my own life, due to inadequate parenting from their own growth level. Yes, if a young person feels suicidal then likely their parents did not do a good job. In the end it can be a bitter pill. Like it or not, we are responsible for ourselves. If parents are owed respect for giving us life then by the same token they should also be held in commensurate accountability for how said life works out. This is common logic.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 18, 2020 21:20:57 GMT
Most the gay males I know have a very intense relationship with their mother. They're usually very tied to her. But there are those who hate their mother with a vengeance, which tells me there is a close connection nonetheless.
I bring up my father because he was not a good father. He payed all the bills and he never cheated on my mother. And he was physically there but never emotionally there for me. That's why I use him as an example. Because I did hate him for years and did not respect him.
Now, let me also say there was no physical abuse and no sexual abuse in my home. I can't relate to that and I don't tell anyone to respect parents who abused them to such a degree.
I will say my father psychologically abused me through his negligence. However, I learned that it was important for myself as a man, to get past my resentment. and I did. And I'm glad I did. He made mistakes. I made my mistakes. But the genetic and familial connection is so strong with one's parents, that we must try and hold onto a certain existential respect, for ourselves, not necessarily for them. I tell you this because you may be able to do as I did, and repair your relationships. And you will be better off for it.
That can be a problem. Some mothers are so overbearing that, I think, they turn their sons off women. I have always found Freud's theory of "vagina dentata" very interesting. (You are likely to disagree.) Who wants to be eaten alive by a great white?
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 18, 2020 21:31:24 GMT
Gameboy mom, all good. Gameboy mom, make food. Excuse me? My mom encouraged my independence but I could always depend on her. My dad was an asshole but I'm not a perpetual child so I got over it.
I think what we see on this thread is a lot of adults who need to stop blaming their parents for their own self-inflicted misery. In other words, GROW THE FUCK UP.
"Self-inflicted misery"? Just what if that is what your parents taught you? A person is likely to do what they are taught. A person often has to unlearn what their parents have taught them and shown them. And showing parents respect for teaching us bad habits and self hate is not conducive in the least. Why should it be? It sometimes takes a lot to get to the place where life is seen as this automatic good thing.
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