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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 7, 2020 12:46:25 GMT
Perhaps obviously "blame" is not the right word. I think it would be a mistake not to recognize that science "fell short" in some respects.
I just saw Tom Hanks on television asking people to "do their part" as though they aren't doing that. Of course there are a few people that are going to do the wrongs things, there always were and probably always will be, but that isn't nearly the whole problem. Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done.
It is also a mistake to ask people to have more faith in science at this point. I myself believe some measure of faith in science makes sense. I think it is important for all good citizens to have some measure of faith in science. It is silly however to ask people to have more faith in science because of its current failures. Trying to blame innocent citizens for the failures of science is particularly annoying. It might also be counter productive with those ubiquitous troublesome folks. Are honest approach might well be more effective. "Okay, we dropped the ball. We need to do more work. Please continue to have some small measure of faith in us anyway." I would be in for that.
I repeat myself here perhaps too much, but if you want to defeat Donald Trump you need to get your party members who are more fond of science than capable of it to keep quiet. Their complaints are only going to build support for Trump.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 7, 2020 13:45:11 GMT
Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. Any suggestion from you that scientists are at fault for the "mixed messages from authorities" just (again) shows your own biased resentment against scientists.
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Post by politicidal on Jul 7, 2020 14:15:16 GMT
Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. Any suggestion from you that scientists are at fault for the "mixed messages from authorities" just (again) shows your own biased resentment against scientists. He's mad at the wrong "authorities" anyway. We all know it's the mad kumquat in the White House that fucked everything up.
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klandersen
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Post by klandersen on Jul 7, 2020 14:21:19 GMT
I think the mixed messages are because the authorities keep politicizing the whole mess. Many putting all the blame on Trump because they hate him and he doesn't fit into their world destruction narrative, others blaming the Chinese authorities because they started the whole thing to try to reboot their own failing economy.
Sadly it is not about the science anymore.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jul 7, 2020 16:20:45 GMT
Perhaps obviously "blame" is not the right word. I think it would be a mistake not to recognize that science "fell short" in some respects. I just saw Tom Hanks on television asking people to "do their part" as though they aren't doing that. Of course there are a few people that are going to do the wrongs things, there always were and probably always will be, but that isn't nearly the whole problem. Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. It is also a mistake to ask people to have more faith in science at this point. I myself believe some measure of faith in science makes sense. I think it is important for all good citizens to have some measure of faith in science. It is silly however to ask people to have more faith in science because of its current failures. Trying to blame innocent citizens for the failures of science is particularly annoying. It might also be counter productive with those ubiquitous troublesome folks. Are honest approach might well be more effective. "Okay, we dropped the ball. We need to do more work. Please continue to have some small measure of faith in us anyway." I would be in for that. I repeat myself here perhaps too much, but if you want to defeat Donald Trump you need to get your party members who are more fond of science than capable of it to keep quiet. Their complaints are only going to build support for Trump. Faith? WTF is Yahweh doing about COVID? Since you have no faith in science, then it must have been Jehovah that brought COVID. Praise Jesus for killing half a million people worldwide.
Science can only perform miracles on known items. Let me give you an example: Suppose you are a highly educated veterinarian with more science degrees than you can shake a stick at. Suppose, you are standing on a mound the middle of a field and there is an elephant with three balls standing 20 yards away. What should you do? Veterinary training never prepared you for this event. Should you pray to God for divine wisdom?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 7, 2020 16:31:36 GMT
In a way. Science figured into the development of printing presses, radios, televisions, and the Internet; all of which have been used by the government-controlled media to spread false information and create this pandemic.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 7, 2020 19:27:16 GMT
Perhaps obviously "blame" is not the right word. I think it would be a mistake not to recognize that science "fell short" in some respects. I just saw Tom Hanks on television asking people to "do their part" as though they aren't doing that. Of course there are a few people that are going to do the wrongs things, there always were and probably always will be, but that isn't nearly the whole problem. Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. It is also a mistake to ask people to have more faith in science at this point. I myself believe some measure of faith in science makes sense. I think it is important for all good citizens to have some measure of faith in science. It is silly however to ask people to have more faith in science because of its current failures. Trying to blame innocent citizens for the failures of science is particularly annoying. It might also be counter productive with those ubiquitous troublesome folks. Are honest approach might well be more effective. "Okay, we dropped the ball. We need to do more work. Please continue to have some small measure of faith in us anyway." I would be in for that. I repeat myself here perhaps too much, but if you want to defeat Donald Trump you need to get your party members who are more fond of science than capable of it to keep quiet. Their complaints are only going to build support for Trump. I quite don't agree with your OP. You are implying that scientists were unable to completely eliminate Corona and thus science is not a a god equivalent thing. Well, nobody sees science as god or protector like god. Development in science has increased the average age of human beings across all continents. It is incorrect to set wrong expectations and then blame something. Science is not there to ensure nothing happens to human beings. But scientific developments like developing proper vaccines solves problems of millions if not all humans. Also, one might question God's complete failure to do anything about Corona.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 7, 2020 19:39:01 GMT
Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. In fact the rules and techniques for combating an epidemic are widely understood and have worked well before and while a pandemic offers greater challenges it is just more of the same. It is not the fault of scientists if people do not follow advice as strictly as they ought for political or religious reasons. As for who is to blame for the virus, despite the continuing efforts of some to assert otherwise, a laboratory origin has largely been ruled out. If nature really is 'designed' then perhaps we ought to look to the intelligence behind things.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 7, 2020 21:22:54 GMT
Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. Any suggestion from you that scientists are at fault for the "mixed messages from authorities" just (again) shows your own biased resentment against scientists. The current governor of Virginia is also a certified medical doctor. He has changed his position dramatically as have other authorities. You just keep trying though to maintain that delusion that I am any more the problem than they are.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 7, 2020 21:27:27 GMT
Perhaps obviously "blame" is not the right word. I think it would be a mistake not to recognize that science "fell short" in some respects. I just saw Tom Hanks on television asking people to "do their part" as though they aren't doing that. Of course there are a few people that are going to do the wrongs things, there always were and probably always will be, but that isn't nearly the whole problem. Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. It is also a mistake to ask people to have more faith in science at this point. I myself believe some measure of faith in science makes sense. I think it is important for all good citizens to have some measure of faith in science. It is silly however to ask people to have more faith in science because of its current failures. Trying to blame innocent citizens for the failures of science is particularly annoying. It might also be counter productive with those ubiquitous troublesome folks. Are honest approach might well be more effective. "Okay, we dropped the ball. We need to do more work. Please continue to have some small measure of faith in us anyway." I would be in for that. I repeat myself here perhaps too much, but if you want to defeat Donald Trump you need to get your party members who are more fond of science than capable of it to keep quiet. Their complaints are only going to build support for Trump. Faith? WTF is Yahweh doing about COVID? Since you have no faith in science, then it must have been Jehovah that brought COVID. Praise Jesus for killing half a million people worldwide.
Science can only perform miracles on known items. Let me give you an example: Suppose you are a highly educated veterinarian with more science degrees than you can shake a stick at. Suppose, you are standing on a mound the middle of a field and there is an elephant with three balls standing 20 yards away. What should you do? Veterinary training never prepared you for this event. Should you pray to God for divine wisdom?
You're missing the point. The point is that I am very annoyed with being blamed for the failures of science. I am no more to blame for the pandemic than Governor Northam. I appreciate very much that he is a certified medical doctor. I appreciate very much that he is the governor of my current home state of Virginia. I do not believe he is Jesus Christ though.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 7, 2020 21:40:36 GMT
Perhaps obviously "blame" is not the right word. I think it would be a mistake not to recognize that science "fell short" in some respects. I just saw Tom Hanks on television asking people to "do their part" as though they aren't doing that. Of course there are a few people that are going to do the wrongs things, there always were and probably always will be, but that isn't nearly the whole problem. Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. People are getting mixed messages from authorities on what needs to be done, and especially when it needs to be done. It is also a mistake to ask people to have more faith in science at this point. I myself believe some measure of faith in science makes sense. I think it is important for all good citizens to have some measure of faith in science. It is silly however to ask people to have more faith in science because of its current failures. Trying to blame innocent citizens for the failures of science is particularly annoying. It might also be counter productive with those ubiquitous troublesome folks. Are honest approach might well be more effective. "Okay, we dropped the ball. We need to do more work. Please continue to have some small measure of faith in us anyway." I would be in for that. I repeat myself here perhaps too much, but if you want to defeat Donald Trump you need to get your party members who are more fond of science than capable of it to keep quiet. Their complaints are only going to build support for Trump. I quite don't agree with your OP. You are implying that scientists were unable to completely eliminate Corona and thus science is not a a god equivalent thing. Well, nobody sees science as god or protector like god. Development in science has increased the average age of human beings across all continents. It is incorrect to set wrong expectations and then blame something. Science is not there to ensure nothing happens to human beings. But scientific developments like developing proper vaccines solves problems of millions if not all humans. Also, one might question God's complete failure to do anything about Corona. Things might be better where you live, but American television is flooded with people whose line of thinking is, "See? Pandemic! Not enough faith in science." I mentioned this to you directly before, and I still believe that "science" is not the problem. The problem is too much faith in science by large numbers of people more fond of science than capable of it. Because of them "science" is not administered by anyone any more "angelic" than anyone in any other endeavor despite their delusions.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 7, 2020 21:46:26 GMT
Much of the problem is on science. Science doesn't really know what to do and it shows. In fact the rules and techniques for combating an epidemic are widely understood and have worked well before and while a pandemic offers greater challenges it is just more of the same. It is not the fault of scientists if people do not follow advice as strictly as they ought for political or religious reasons. As for who is to blame for the virus, despite the continuing efforts of some to assert otherwise, a laboratory origin has largely been ruled out. If nature really is 'designed' then perhaps we ought to look to the intelligence behind things. Everyone has a sink and soap. Those are not just decorations. They are for actual hand washing. Everyone including young children understands the hazards of coughing and sneezing on other people. Please stop trying to blame the obvious failure of science on us. The few people you were able to find who broke the rules are not sufficient to explain the large increases in cases. Make sense one day.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 7, 2020 22:02:32 GMT
In fact the rules and techniques for combating an epidemic are widely understood and have worked well before and while a pandemic offers greater challenges it is just more of the same. It is not the fault of scientists if people do not follow advice as strictly as they ought for political or religious reasons. As for who is to blame for the virus, despite the continuing efforts of some to assert otherwise, a laboratory origin has largely been ruled out. If nature really is 'designed' then perhaps we ought to look to the intelligence behind things. Everyone has a sink and soap. Those are not just decorations. They are for actual hand washing. Everyone including young children understands the hazards of coughing and sneezing on other people. Please stop trying to blame the obvious failure of science on us. The few people you were able to find who broke the rules are not sufficient to explain the large increases in cases. Make sense one day. I am glad you recognise the science and recommended healthy practices. I rather think that it is more than just a few people in the States who are not following the rules. Most of the negative comment about the behaviour of the public is concerned with large numbers, such as those many who ignore social distancing, face masking and lock down measures - which have given the USA some of the worst figures in the world, which are growing worse, and which so worries Fauci. This is not a failure of science but of not following the scientific advice. (Of course if we are to believe Trump there are just more cases since there is more testing being done, so presumably if testing was abandoned then there would be no cases lol)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 0:16:01 GMT
I always blame the Jesus freaks.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2020 9:55:07 GMT
Everyone has a sink and soap. Those are not just decorations. They are for actual hand washing. Everyone including young children understands the hazards of coughing and sneezing on other people. Please stop trying to blame the obvious failure of science on us. The few people you were able to find who broke the rules are not sufficient to explain the large increases in cases. Make sense one day. I am glad you recognise the science and recommended healthy practices. I rather think that it is more than just a few people in the States who are not following the rules. Most of the negative comment about the behaviour of the public is concerned with large numbers, such as those many who ignore social distancing, face masking and lock down measures - which have given the USA some of the worst figures in the world, which are growing worse, and which so worries Fauci. This is not a failure of science but of not following the scientific advice. (Of course if we are to believe Trump there are just more cases since there is more testing being done, so presumably if testing was abandoned then there would be no cases lol) I am not glad that you believe you know anything about the United States. I doubt you know much about the country where you live. Having worked for years in the Recreation and Parks Department I know there are quite many more public spaces than your television has mentioned. There are quite many more than our television has mentioned. I can see on a regular basis remarkable compliance with special strategies to isolate the virus. You only see the squeaky wheels and believe you're an expert on the problem. Remember when you mentioned three people who did not comply? Remember how I reprimanded your failure to interpret data?
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2020 10:03:51 GMT
I always blame the Jesus freaks. Have you ever wondered how many people think you are the Jesus freak?
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2020 13:05:05 GMT
In fact the rules and techniques for combating an epidemic are widely understood and have worked well before and while a pandemic offers greater challenges it is just more of the same. It is not the fault of scientists if people do not follow advice as strictly as they ought for political or religious reasons. As for who is to blame for the virus, despite the continuing efforts of some to assert otherwise, a laboratory origin has largely been ruled out. If nature really is 'designed' then perhaps we ought to look to the intelligence behind things. Actually, science does know what to do. They are in the process of doing it now, but finding a solution for any problem takes time. They can’t draw up a plan to save the planet in the next 20 minutes up on a magical computer screen like Tony Stark. Ar tends to confuse the trial and error process as being alchemy where if the formula is pure and the words true, then iron can be turned into gold in an instant. He also confuses the base politicization of science as the work of the scientific community. It is not. The science of medicine is hamstrung by Big Medicine and Big Pharma Lobby and the politicians beholden to them. In the meantime, while Ar and others like him navel gazes about unjustly suppressed pseudo-sciences that do claim ready cures, universities and teaching hospitals are learning on the battlefield how to best combat this pandemic until science...not the Trump administration, not the 700 Club, not Fox News finds a vaccine. If Trump had not fucked up the CDC and shoved his ignorant nose into this being the “genius” who just knows what’s best, forget that he paid a guy to help him get into business school. You tend to confuse children who simply follow orders word for word with the responsible adults who must compose rules that make sense. There are plenty of religiously organized and/or funded hospitals. Mt. Sinai Hospital, Cedars-Sinai, Loma Linda, even the "Christian" ones can be very successful. There is usually a large Catholic hospital in major cities. Remember Oral Roberts, the TV faith healer? Oral Roberts University (and) Hospital is a very notable success. You might be right that the 700 Club will not develop a vaccine, that isn't really their specialty. They concentrate on other charitable works. If you think religion won't find an answer before atheists do, you're probably wrong though. As has been thoroughly established here atheists cannot read above a rudimentary level. Although that serves them well enough in some "scientific" (plain) endeavors, they tend to be herd animals.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 8, 2020 16:32:58 GMT
I am glad you recognise the science and recommended healthy practices. I rather think that it is more than just a few people in the States who are not following the rules. Most of the negative comment about the behaviour of the public is concerned with large numbers, such as those many who ignore social distancing, face masking and lock down measures - which have given the USA some of the worst figures in the world, which are growing worse, and which so worries Fauci. This is not a failure of science but of not following the scientific advice. (Of course if we are to believe Trump there are just more cases since there is more testing being done, so presumably if testing was abandoned then there would be no cases lol) I am not glad that you believe you know anything about the United States. I doubt you know much about the country where you live. Having worked for years in the Recreation and Parks Department I know there are quite many more public spaces than your television has mentioned. There are quite many more than our television has mentioned. I can see on a regular basis remarkable compliance with special strategies to isolate the virus. You only see the squeaky wheels and believe you're an expert on the problem. Remember when you mentioned three people who did not comply? Remember how I reprimanded your failure to interpret data? I am not sure how any of this directly answers either my observations or, more importantly those of Fauci. In any case who should give most credence to, the scientist at the heart of America's virus response or some guy who used to work in Parks and Recreation? As for the examples, remember how they were prominent instances which directly contradicted what you claimed - for which you have not offered any substantiation, data or otherwise, as usual? I do. You really ought to start addressing things directly rather than just offering rambling non-sequiturs. It looks bad.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 8, 2020 16:35:18 GMT
Actually, science does know what to do. They are in the process of doing it now, but finding a solution for any problem takes time. They can’t draw up a plan to save the planet in the next 20 minutes up on a magical computer screen like Tony Stark. Ar tends to confuse the trial and error process as being alchemy where if the formula is pure and the words true, then iron can be turned into gold in an instant. He also confuses the base politicization of science as the work of the scientific community. It is not. The science of medicine is hamstrung by Big Medicine and Big Pharma Lobby and the politicians beholden to them. In the meantime, while Ar and others like him navel gazes about unjustly suppressed pseudo-sciences that do claim ready cures, universities and teaching hospitals are learning on the battlefield how to best combat this pandemic until science...not the Trump administration, not the 700 Club, not Fox News finds a vaccine. If Trump had not fucked up the CDC and shoved his ignorant nose into this being the “genius” who just knows what’s best, forget that he paid a guy to help him get into business school. You tend to confuse children who simply follow orders word for word with the responsible adults who must compose rules that make sense. There are plenty of religiously organized and/or funded hospitals. Mt. Sinai Hospital, Cedars-Sinai, Loma Linda, even the "Christian" ones can be very successful. Yes - by applying scientific treatments to cure people. As PaulsLaugh says above, an institution could be the Amon Ra General and it would make no difference to outcomes. An experiment on the efficacy of prayer in a medical environment back in the day, for instance, showed no appreciable difference to health results.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2020 21:14:57 GMT
I am not glad that you believe you know anything about the United States. I doubt you know much about the country where you live. Having worked for years in the Recreation and Parks Department I know there are quite many more public spaces than your television has mentioned. There are quite many more than our television has mentioned. I can see on a regular basis remarkable compliance with special strategies to isolate the virus. You only see the squeaky wheels and believe you're an expert on the problem. Remember when you mentioned three people who did not comply? Remember how I reprimanded your failure to interpret data? I am not sure how any of this directly answers either my observations or, more importantly those of Fauci. In any case who should give most credence to, the scientist at the heart of America's virus response or some guy who used to work in Parks and Recreation? As for the examples, remember how they were prominent instances which directly contradicted what you claimed - for which you have not offered any substantiation, data or otherwise, as usual? I do. You really ought to start addressing things directly rather than just offering rambling non-sequiturs. It looks bad. You mean covered on TV? That doesn't mean anything. You have also twisted the meaning of Fauci. Perhaps a direct quote would be more suitable to your abilities. You have no idea what you are talking about. The only reason I suffer your presence here is in the hopes that you might learn actual debate practice from me.
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