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Post by rizdek on Jul 11, 2020 17:22:34 GMT
Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
Granted, if one arbitrarily defines a miracle as an act of God...then one might say the existence of a realTM miracle would prove God existed. But if we just define a miracle as something that is not explainable by natural laws or science, then I don't think it would be evidence of the existence of God.
For argument sake, let's assume something inexplicable actually happened.
First, one would have to know that whatever happened was actually impossible to have been due to natural laws or causes. It seems there is enough we don't know about the natural world that that is unlikely to ever be known.
Second, even IF one COULD know for certain that whatever happened could not have been due to 'natural laws' and/or nature, that would still leave other plausible explanations..e.g. some 'outside of nature' or 'supernatural' force that either acts randomly/inexplicably or that could be somehow controlled by humans or other beings with minds, Of course this explanation would be evidence of some sort of supernatural and maybe even that (some) human minds can access.
From a personal standpoint, I'm not convinced any actual miracles (events that cannot be explained through nature) have ever occurred, although I have heard some pretty remarkable stories from people I believe were telling what they thought to be true.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 11, 2020 17:30:33 GMT
What exactly defines "supernatural" can be rather tricky. People used to believe the sun was a god (now we know it's a giant ball of gas). People used to think the rain was caused by a rain deity (now we know condensation). People sued to think shizophrenia was caused by demons (now we know it's issues with the brain). Just because something isn't explained by our current understanding of naturalism doesn't necessarily mean it's "supernatural", it just mean it hasn't been scientifically explained yet. Imagine if we discovered a race of aliens that could start fires with their mind. Is that necessarily "supernatural"? No, it just means we don't quite understand the naturalistic beans by which they're able to do it (perhaps their brains can give off high, intense heat waves).
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Miracles
Jul 11, 2020 17:32:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 11, 2020 17:32:36 GMT
I thinks it’s fine to define as something that can’t be explained and normally considered to be impossible.
But this would be tied to our understanding of it as well.
Miracles could have an explanation and a possibility that we just don’t understand yet.
Any miracle directly to Gid would be Gods but others in the Bible are capable of them too such as Satan or Jesus.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 11, 2020 18:50:23 GMT
IF one COULD know for certain that whatever happened could not have been due to 'natural laws' and/or nature, that would still leave other plausible explanations..e.g. some 'outside of nature' or 'supernatural' force that either acts randomly/inexplicably or that could be somehow controlled by humans or other beings with minds, Of course this explanation would be evidence of some sort of supernatural and maybe even that (some) human minds can access.
Yes, such certainty would prove the existence of some sort of supernatural realm. But is it a realm of just mindless supernatural energy, or is there at least one "person" residing there and exerting conscious control over that energy? Maybe the nature of the miracle or miracles suggest an answer. If the miracles seem random and purposeless (a stone suddenly levitates, serving no use), then the supernatural realm contains no god. But if we can see a purpose to the miracle, that indicates a god or gods. Just spitballing.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 11, 2020 19:01:32 GMT
Readers of The Source Book project and Charles Fort know full well how numerous are anomalies of every sort in the natural world. But that not everything can be explained or accommodated easily within existing science does not mean it must have supernatural explanation.
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Post by rizdek on Jul 11, 2020 20:59:02 GMT
IF one COULD know for certain that whatever happened could not have been due to 'natural laws' and/or nature, that would still leave other plausible explanations..e.g. some 'outside of nature' or 'supernatural' force that either acts randomly/inexplicably or that could be somehow controlled by humans or other beings with minds, Of course this explanation would be evidence of some sort of supernatural and maybe even that (some) human minds can access.
Yes, such certainly would prove the existence of some sort of supernatural realm. But is it a realm of just mindless supernatural energy, or is there at least one "person" residing there and exerting conscious control over that energy? Maybe the nature of the miracle or miracles suggest an answer. If the miracles seem random and purposeless (a stone suddenly levitates, serving no use), then the supernatural realm contains no god. But if we can see a purpose to the miracle, that indicates a god or gods.Just spitballing. Well, unless what appears to be on purpose is the result of human minds being able to make use of that 'mindless supernatural energy.'
I don't think a supernatural world/realm exists, but IF it did then perhaps the 'unexplainable' could be due to some humans being able to access/manipulate that realm. Perhaps some humans would be better at it than others. I note that even with physical/normal things, some humans are far superior/more capable than others. Some have a superior aptitude for...music, sports, art, business, etc. Perhaps all people can't do it and even those who can can't do it regularly/reliably/all the time. Perhaps they don't even realize they can manipulate it. Kind of like we imagine animals manipulate the physical world around them. Animals can do things, swim, fly, run, catch things, climb things using their fins/wings/muscles/hands/claws/whatever...but we don't think of them pondering how they are doing those things. Perhaps that would be how humans could access this realm...i.e. intuitively without even realizing it.
But the bottom line is that that thinking has made me realize that 'miracles,' even if I became convinced any occurred, would no longer suggest to me the existence of God or a god. I would first consider that people might be causing what appear to be miracles.
The added benefit would be that that could explain the inconsistency of miracles...ie why when the situation would seem to warrant a miracle, no miracle happens. If a God was causing them that might be a dilemma, sometimes referred to as the problem of evil. But if miracles were due to humans imprecise/limited powers to control the supernatural, that would explain the rarity, imprecision and inconsistency.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 11, 2020 21:51:38 GMT
Yes, such certainly would prove the existence of some sort of supernatural realm. But is it a realm of just mindless supernatural energy, or is there at least one "person" residing there and exerting conscious control over that energy? Maybe the nature of the miracle or miracles suggest an answer. If the miracles seem random and purposeless (a stone suddenly levitates, serving no use), then the supernatural realm contains no god. But if we can see a purpose to the miracle, that indicates a god or gods.Just spitballing. '
I don't think a supernatural world/realm exists, but IF it did then perhaps the 'unexplainable' could be due to some humans being able to access/manipulate that realm. Perhaps some humans would be better at it than others. I note that even with physical/normal things, some humans are far superior/more capable than others. Some have a superior aptitude for...music, sports, art, business, etc.
The problem I have with that is that I don't think of a supernatural force being subject to any natural force. If this talented person is levitating a stone, he is using whatever natural force he has to manipulate some other (as yet unknown) natural force.
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Post by rizdek on Jul 11, 2020 22:59:47 GMT
'
I don't think a supernatural world/realm exists, but IF it did then perhaps the 'unexplainable' could be due to some humans being able to access/manipulate that realm. Perhaps some humans would be better at it than others. I note that even with physical/normal things, some humans are far superior/more capable than others. Some have a superior aptitude for...music, sports, art, business, etc.
The problem I have with that is that I don't think of a supernatural force being subject to any natural force. If this talented person is levitating a stone, he is using whatever natural force he has to manipulate some other (as yet unknown) natural force. Ok, this line of discussion assumes some actual miracle occurs that is absolutely NOT consistent with ANY natural laws. And NOT just known laws, but any natural laws, period. SO, it's purely hypothetical at this point. BUT IF something like that occurred, IMHO imagining that somehow humans did it seems as good, if not better, than imagining those supernatural forces were manipulated by a god.
So yes, if there was some sort of levitation...I'd start by assuming it was somehow due to as yet unknown natural laws.
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Post by politicidal on Jul 11, 2020 23:18:01 GMT
Not sure, but I know if toast falling jellyside down is proof the devil exists.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 12, 2020 4:48:56 GMT
Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
Granted, if one arbitrarily defines a miracle as an act of God...then one might say the existence of a realTM miracle would prove God existed. But if we just define a miracle as something that is not explainable by natural laws or science, then I don't think it would be evidence of the existence of God.
For argument sake, let's assume something inexplicable actually happened.
First, one would have to know that whatever happened was actually impossible to have been due to natural laws or causes. It seems there is enough we don't know about the natural world that that is unlikely to ever be known.
Second, even IF one COULD know for certain that whatever happened could not have been due to 'natural laws' and/or nature, that would still leave other plausible explanations..e.g. some 'outside of nature' or 'supernatural' force that either acts randomly/inexplicably or that could be somehow controlled by humans or other beings with minds, Of course this explanation would be evidence of some sort of supernatural and maybe even that (some) human minds can access.
From a personal standpoint, I'm not convinced any actual miracles (events that cannot be explained through nature) have ever occurred, although I have heard some pretty remarkable stories from people I believe were telling what they thought to be true.
Personally, I believe in miracles and that they are caused by God working on a level that we cannot yet comprehend. Now, having said that, it doesn't mean I think everything that appears miraculous really is. For example, take the Battle of Midway in 1942. On paper there was simply no way the Americans could possibly win that battle, much less make it a decisive victory. A big deal is made about breaking the Japanese code just before the battle began, but I think the US had the Japanese code years before the war began. It looked like a miraculous change of events, but I don't think it was.
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Post by mslo79 on Jul 12, 2020 7:16:26 GMT
Yes, definitely. for example... Eucharistic Miracles basically prove The Holy Eucharist is what the Catholic church teaches it is, which is basically (straight from The Catechism of the Catholic Church (which is official Catholic church teachings))... CCC #1376... "The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." CCC #1413... "By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651)." more info... magiscenter.com/the-real-presence-of-jesus-in-the-eucharist-history-and-evidence/but like I always say those more hardcore atheist types will reject it anyways as they fit inline well with 2nd half of the following quote... "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas some people just can't 'see' or maybe they don't want to because then they would have to change their lives.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jul 12, 2020 10:39:20 GMT
What exactly defines "supernatural" can be rather tricky. People used to believe the sun was a god (now we know it's a giant ball of gas). People used to think the rain was caused by a rain deity (now we know condensation). People sued to think shizophrenia was caused by demons (now we know it's issues with the brain). Just because something isn't explained by our current understanding of naturalism doesn't necessarily mean it's "supernatural", it just mean it hasn't been scientifically explained yet. Imagine if we discovered a race of aliens that could start fires with their mind. Is that necessarily "supernatural"? No, it just means we don't quite understand the naturalistic beans by which they're able to do it (perhaps their brains can give off high, intense heat waves).
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Post by rizdek on Jul 12, 2020 12:28:57 GMT
Yes, definitely. for example... Eucharistic Miracles basically prove The Holy Eucharist is what the Catholic church teaches it is, which is basically (straight from The Catechism of the Catholic Church (which is official Catholic church teachings))... CCC #1376... "The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." CCC #1413... "By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651)." more info... magiscenter.com/the-real-presence-of-jesus-in-the-eucharist-history-and-evidence/but like I always say those more hardcore atheist types will reject it anyways as they fit inline well with 2nd half of the following quote... "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas some people just can't 'see' or maybe they don't want to because then they would have to change their lives. Let's assume those events actually happened and that one actually CAN go to Italy and touch/sample those items and they are what they are claiming.
Why would that require God to have done it? If God had done it, God would have had to alter the physical structure of the material in just such a way as to make it 'be' blood and flesh. Something about it changed physically. So who is to say that that kind of unusual incident didn't happen due to some unknown supernatural force that some humans can tap into that ended up causing the changes in ways no one understands and even the person doing it doesn't understand. IOW, tapping into the supernatural, if such is possible, may be something some people can do intuitively/instinctively like a bird flies or a fish swims. When animals do things, we assume THEY don't actually KNOW they are doing it, but they intuitively/instinctively do it. In the case of flying and swimming, we humans can observe what's going on..we know somewhat how the shape of the animal and how it moves..how its muscles work...that allows it to fly/swim. But the animal itself does NOT know how it does it, In like fashion some humans may, at times, be able to tap into unknown powers/forces that causes inexplicable things to occur. And we humans, like the bird or fish, do not even know how it is happening, but just see the results. I have faith that anything that appears to be a miracle is just someone or something making something happen that is out of the ordinary but that did not require God or a god. No further explanation is necessary.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas
some people just can't 'see' or maybe they don't want to because then they would have to change their lives.
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Post by rizdek on Jul 12, 2020 12:47:37 GMT
I think there are unusual occurrences that 99% of the time have a plausible and rational explanation. The 1% unknowns I chalk up to being currently inexplicable. However, I don't believe in miracles in any supernatural sense. I have a similar attitude. Best I can tell most of the stories of miracles happen in ways and are in places that a) no one an actually verify and b) could easily be the result of tricks.
My main point is that even IF...and that's a big IF...I became personally convinced of something happening that I was absolutely sure could NOT have happened due to natural laws/natural chains of events, I would still simply have something akin to faith that it was due to someone or something tapping into some power we are currently not aware of before I'd assume it was due to God or a god.
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Post by phludowin on Jul 15, 2020 10:13:41 GMT
"The supernatural is the natural not yet explained." My opinion: Miracles, as in events violating natural laws, don't exist.
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