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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 13, 2020 18:09:37 GMT
Although the intelligent designer might be the same god as in the Bible, neither you nor I can establish that. I don't have any magical powers, do you? So why are you quoting scriptures? What are you trying to say? This assumes that there is an intelligent designer. Start again. As for quoting scriptures, I let the Bible speak for itself, even when it contradicts itself.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 14, 2020 0:47:55 GMT
I'm glad you have better things to do than follow this board, but I would note the you do not follow it well. Then why do you think the Bible is true? When did I say the Bible is "true"? Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true." I suppose it might contain truth, but the Holy spirit is required to make that truth available to humans. (Incidentally that's according to the Bible too.) I believe it is possible that the Holy Spirit reveals God's truth to people. I doubt it makes anyone omniscient even though it might be able. Rather I suspect it gives people the truth they need to take the next step in their personal journey or the journey of some group close to them. Perhaps it gives them just what they need to escape some trouble.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Aug 14, 2020 0:54:38 GMT
Then why do you think the Bible is true? When did I say the Bible is "true"? Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true." I suppose it might contain truth, but the Holy spirit is required to make that truth available to humans. (Incidentally that's according to the Bible too.) I believe it is possible that the Holy Spirit reveals God's truth to people. I doubt it makes anyone omniscient even though it might be able. Rather I suspect it gives people the truth they need to take the next step in their personal journey or the journey of some group close to them. Perhaps it gives them just what they need to escape some trouble. According to the Bible, all divine revelation ended with Jesus. He, according to the Church, is the final word. But I appreciate anyone who’s on a personal spiritual journey like yourself. You might be surprised how many are themselves atheists.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 14, 2020 1:04:52 GMT
Although the intelligent designer might be the same god as in the Bible, neither you nor I can establish that. I don't have any magical powers, do you? So why are you quoting scriptures? What are you trying to say? This assumes that there is an intelligent designer. Start again. As for quoting scriptures, I let the Bible speak for itself, even when it contradicts itself. I was discussing the apparent properties of the intelligent designer and what those properties imply. I have no idea where you are off to. The scriptures you quote in no way indicate that supernatural powers are available upon request. There apparently are conditions and limits on Bible promises that still escape you, I'm certain. That is apparently the way with the intelligent designer as well. There might be very radical denominations that believe all you have to do is ask for a million dollars and get it, but they have no million dollars oddly enough.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 14, 2020 1:14:54 GMT
When did I say the Bible is "true"? Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true." I suppose it might contain truth, but the Holy spirit is required to make that truth available to humans. (Incidentally that's according to the Bible too.) I believe it is possible that the Holy Spirit reveals God's truth to people. I doubt it makes anyone omniscient even though it might be able. Rather I suspect it gives people the truth they need to take the next step in their personal journey or the journey of some group close to them. Perhaps it gives them just what they need to escape some trouble. According to the Bible, all divine revelation ended with Jesus. He, according to the Church, is the final word. But I appreciate anyone who’s on a personal spiritual journey like yourself. You might be surprised how many are themselves atheists. Now you've gone and done a very bad thing. You missed an important point in ancient texts. Now what did you mean?
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Post by Isapop on Aug 14, 2020 10:32:08 GMT
Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true." 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed", or (depending on translation), "All Scripture is inspired of God". You don't regard that as the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? (You put true in quotes. Is that what you mean - the actual word "true" isn't used, and therefore the Bible doesn't say it's true?)
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 14, 2020 12:50:47 GMT
Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true." 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed", or (depending on translation), "All Scripture is inspired of God". You don't regard that as the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? (You put true in quotes. Is that what you mean - the actual word "true" isn't used, and therefore the Bible doesn't say it's true?) Remember when I said the problem with many atheists (and some religious) is that they are plainspoken to a fault? Please do remember.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 14, 2020 13:37:57 GMT
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed", or (depending on translation), "All Scripture is inspired of God". You don't regard that as the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? (You put true in quotes. Is that what you mean - the actual word "true" isn't used, and therefore the Bible doesn't say it's true?) Remember when I said the problem with many atheists (and some religious) is that they are plainspoken to a fault? Please do remember. This will come as a shock to you, but I don't hang on your every word. Now try being plainspoken yourself. Doesn't that scripture show the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? And if not, why not?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 14, 2020 19:15:56 GMT
This assumes that there is an intelligent designer. Start again. As for quoting scriptures, I let the Bible speak for itself, even when it contradicts itself. I was discussing the apparent properties of the intelligent designer and what those properties imply. This is rather like deciding which of Santa's reindeers has the shiniest nose. But the overriding property of any supposed intelligent designer is that it is apparently deliberate. (A word which, in connection with the also presumed supernatural was something you took issue with recently, I remember.) After that there are issues around whether the Designer did a very good job (for instance any engineer worth his or her salt could do a better with the human knee or the eye; over 90% of species which have existed are now extinct; most of that which exists is cold dark and useless for life; most of the earth man cannot inhabit, or at least can't without his own ingenuity & etc) and so on. I am sorry you have no idea. That would be why Jesus said not to put God to the test. Since I actually quoted this just above, then the above is not something I have said. So tell us: what are the conditions and limits we may set on God, exactly?
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 2:09:18 GMT
Remember when I said the problem with many atheists (and some religious) is that they are plainspoken to a fault? Please do remember. This will come as a shock to you, but I don't hang on your every word. Now try being plainspoken yourself. Doesn't that scripture show the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? And if not, why not? Are all painted images "true"? Is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony "true"? Does "art" mean the same thing as a "lie"?
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 2:12:34 GMT
I was discussing the apparent properties of the intelligent designer and what those properties imply. This is rather like deciding which of Santa's reindeers has the shiniest nose. But the overriding property of any supposed intelligent designer is that it is apparently deliberate. (A word which, in connection with the also presumed supernatural was something you took issue with recently, I remember.) After that there are issues around whether the Designer did a very good job (for instance any engineer worth his or her salt could do a better with the human knee or the eye; over 90% of species which have existed are now extinct; most of that which exists is cold dark and useless for life; most of the earth man cannot inhabit, or at least can't without his own ingenuity & etc) and so on. I am sorry you have no idea. That would be why Jesus said not to put God to the test. Since I actually quoted this just above, then the above is not something I have said. So tell us: what are the conditions and limits we may set on God, exactly? If you can quote exactly what I said that prompted you to ask that question I just might try to answer it.
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Post by goz on Aug 15, 2020 2:37:41 GMT
Remember? This will come as a shock to you, but I don't hang on your every word. Now try being plainspoken yourself. Doesn't that scripture show the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? And if not, why not? Are all painted images "true"? Is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony "true"? Does "art" mean the same thing as a "lie"? Great! So you admit that the Bible is both art and fiction...at last we are getting somewhere. Next step...this so-called intelligent designer of yours. Art or fiction...or both? ..or a lie?
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Aug 15, 2020 4:21:16 GMT
I believe it is possible that the Holy Spirit reveals God's truth to people. According to the Bible, all divine revelation ended with Jesus. He, according to the Church, is the final word. But I appreciate anyone who’s on a personal spiritual journey like yourself. You might be surprised how many are themselves atheists. Now you've gone and done a very bad thing. You missed an important point in ancient texts. Now what did you mean? . Therefore seeking the spirit of truth is to seek truth itself and not an amorphous spook floating around waiting to be invited in. Sadly, I see very little of that kind of seeking and knowing among Republican Christians. Lies are much more comforting to them than the Truth, as I am sure you well know having lived on Planet Earth for a while and know some humans. DJT and his devoted cult of the Good Christian is evident of that. Also, science is a means to find the truth as well as we can know it, yet Conservative Christians have fought the advancement of science, ie truth seeking, to this very day.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 15, 2020 11:58:08 GMT
Remember? This will come as a shock to you, but I don't hang on your every word. Now try being plainspoken yourself. Doesn't that scripture show the Bible claiming that all scripture should be taken as true? And if not, why not? Are all painted images "true"? Is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony "true"? Does "art" mean the same thing as a "lie"? What a blatant and clumsy evasion. The topic, which you opened, is NOT whether the Bible is true (or art or music). The topic is whether the Bible CLAIMS to be true. You opened it with your assertion, "Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true."
My rebuttal was: 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed", or (depending on translation), "All Scripture is inspired of God". And I put it to you to explain, if you could, how that wouldn't be an instance of the Bible CLAIMING to be true. There is no way to be confused about the topic. But, instead of simply admitting your error, you try to escape with an obvious attempt to change the topic. You had two chances to answer the question. And twice you evaded. It's enough. QED, the Bible indeed says it's true. (As an aside, I wonder if you were so loathe admit you're wrong because it showed you were ignorant of what is, according to Bible Study Tools, not some obscure and little known scripture, but rather what is among the Most Read Bible Verses.) www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/the-25-most-read-bible-verses/
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 18:23:25 GMT
Are all painted images "true"? Is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony "true"? Does "art" mean the same thing as a "lie"? What a blatant and clumsy evasion. The topic, which you opened, is NOT whether the Bible is true (or art or music). The topic is whether the Bible CLAIMS to be true. You opened it with your assertion, "Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true."
My rebuttal was: 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed", or (depending on translation), "All Scripture is inspired of God". And I put it to you to explain, if you could, how that wouldn't be an instance of the Bible CLAIMING to be true. There is no way to be confused about the topic. But, instead of simply admitting your error, you try to escape with an obvious attempt to change the topic. You had two chances to answer the question. And twice you evaded. It's enough. QED, the Bible indeed says it's true. (As an aside, I wonder if you were so loathe admit you're wrong because it showed you were ignorant of what is, according to Bible Study Tools, not some obscure and little known scripture, but rather what is among the Most Read Bible Verses.) www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/the-25-most-read-bible-verses/ Perhaps you would like to expand your own thoughts first. How for example did you get from "God-breathed" to "true"? The thing about "truth" is that it makes no difference whether it's "true" until you know what it means. If you failed calculus and are asked whether a certain calculation is "true" you really can't say till you know what it means. The Bible might well be "true" but there are obviously some people who failed calculus and other sciences and arts who still don't know what it means. Until anyone knows what it means, what possible difference could it make if you think its "true"?
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 18:27:29 GMT
Now you've gone and done a very bad thing. You missed an important point in ancient texts. Now what did you mean? . Therefore seeking the spirit of truth is to seek truth itself and not an amorphous spook floating around waiting to be invited in. Sadly, I see very little of that kind of seeking and knowing among Republican Christians. Lies are much more comforting to them than the Truth, as I am sure you well know having lived on Planet Earth for a while and know some humans. DJT and his devoted cult of the Good Christian is evident of that. Also, science is a means to find the truth as well as we can know it, yet Conservative Christians have fought the advancement of science, ie truth seeking, to this very day. If you're going to define religion or Christianity by what DJT followers say or do, you're going to get terribly lost. I think you already are.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 18:28:23 GMT
Are all painted images "true"? Is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony "true"? Does "art" mean the same thing as a "lie"? Great! So you admit that the Bible is both art and fiction...at last we are getting somewhere. Next step...this so-called intelligent designer of yours. Art or fiction...or both? ..or a lie? Not everything beyond your comprehension is a lie.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 15, 2020 18:48:16 GMT
So tell us: what are the conditions and limits we may set on God, exactly? If you can quote exactly what I said that prompted you to ask that question I just might try to answer it. Sure: " There apparently are conditions and limits on Bible promises... That is apparently the way with the intelligent designer as well. "I hope that helps.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 15, 2020 19:36:58 GMT
What a blatant and clumsy evasion. The topic, which you opened, is NOT whether the Bible is true (or art or music). The topic is whether the Bible CLAIMS to be true. You opened it with your assertion, "Even the Bible doesn't say it's "true."
My rebuttal was: 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed", or (depending on translation), "All Scripture is inspired of God". And I put it to you to explain, if you could, how that wouldn't be an instance of the Bible CLAIMING to be true. There is no way to be confused about the topic. But, instead of simply admitting your error, you try to escape with an obvious attempt to change the topic. You had two chances to answer the question. And twice you evaded. It's enough. QED, the Bible indeed says it's true. (As an aside, I wonder if you were so loathe admit you're wrong because it showed you were ignorant of what is, according to Bible Study Tools, not some obscure and little known scripture, but rather what is among the Most Read Bible Verses.) www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/the-25-most-read-bible-verses/ The thing about "truth" is that it makes no difference whether it's "true" until you know what it means. If you failed calculus and are asked whether a certain calculation is "true" you really can't say till you know what it means. The Bible might well be "true" but there are obviously some people who failed calculus and other sciences and arts who still don't know what it means. Until anyone knows what it means, what possible difference could it make if you think its "true"? Does nothing get through to you? Was my going over how the topic is not whether the Bible is true but instead whether the Bible CLAIMS to be true have no effect at all? So it appears (sadly).NOW.....finally.....your first words that actually address the topic. So, you wanna know, "Gee, just because scripture is "God-breathed", why should we think it would necessarily be claiming to be true?" First, my own thoughts. The connection between "God-breathed" and "true" can be assumed by default. If any "God-breathed" scripture is untrue, then God has mishandled inspiration; and God, by any religion's teaching, could not or would not do that. Therefore, the burden of proof is not on the one who accepts this connection, but rather on anyone who suggest it's not there. For further arguments regarding where the Bible (with other scriptures in addition to that one) CLAIMS that it is true, there are plenty of articles on line by the people who have made the Bible their field of study. If you need more info on how the Bible says it's true, just look them up. Or, if you want to save yourself the trouble, just jettison your unschooled notion that the Bible doesn't say it's true.
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Post by goz on Aug 15, 2020 20:50:38 GMT
Great! So you admit that the Bible is both art and fiction...at last we are getting somewhere. Next step...this so-called intelligent designer of yours. Art or fiction...or both? ..or a lie? Not everything beyond your comprehension is a lie. If it is beyond human comprehensiion, how do we know if it is truth or a lie? The obvious answer is 'faith' however if the intelligent designer is a lie, then faith is useless.
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