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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 23:25:25 GMT
The thing about "truth" is that it makes no difference whether it's "true" until you know what it means. If you failed calculus and are asked whether a certain calculation is "true" you really can't say till you know what it means. The Bible might well be "true" but there are obviously some people who failed calculus and other sciences and arts who still don't know what it means. Until anyone knows what it means, what possible difference could it make if you think its "true"? Does nothing get through to you? Was my going over how the topic is not whether the Bible is true but instead whether the Bible CLAIMS to be true have no effect at all? So it appears (sadly).NOW.....finally.....your first words that actually address the topic. So, you wanna know, "Gee, just because scripture is "God-breathed", why should we think it would necessarily be claiming to be true?" First, my own thoughts. The connection between "God-breathed" and "true" can be assumed by default. If any "God-breathed" scripture is untrue, then God has mishandled inspiration; and God, by any religion's teaching, could not or would not do that. Therefore, the burden of proof is not on the one who accepts this connection, but rather on anyone who suggest it's not there. For further arguments regarding where the Bible (with other scriptures in addition to that one) CLAIMS that it is true, there are plenty of articles on line by the people who have made the Bible their field of study. If you need more info on how the Bible says it's true, just look them up. Or, if you want to save yourself the trouble, just jettison your unschooled notion that the Bible doesn't say it's true. When I first started on the original board at IMDb I noticed that atheists here are "dull witted, artless, and pedestrian." So far you have not proved me wrong. I suppose you will claim you missed it, but the "color green" explanation has been on this board countless times. How do you describe the color green to a person blind since before birth "literally"? You can not! Only people who have already experienced green can know what you mean "literally" by the word "green." People who have seen green can readily know the "truth" about green. Other people must depend on indirect speech, allegory, parables, and other highly symbolic communication. Actually developing an understanding of green might take a lifetime. The Bible might be "true" as I already explained, but it cannot be literally true. Are parables "true"? The Bible does not say it is true because in fact it contains allegory, parable, and symbolism to point a person toward the truth, however the journey is not easy because the Bible deals with things that are beyond common experience and plain speech. There are plenty of people who can read above a third year elementary level. However you will probably have difficulty finding them online because the internet is dominated by the plainspoken, dull witted, artless and pedestrian. As for calculus you probably don't want to mess with that anyway.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 23:50:02 GMT
Not everything beyond your comprehension is a lie. If it is beyond human comprehension, how do we know if it is truth or a lie? The obvious answer is 'faith' however if the intelligent designer is a lie, then faith is useless. can't know. If there were a picture in the dictionary next to the word useless, it might be someone we know from Australia.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 15, 2020 23:57:45 GMT
If you can quote exactly what I said that prompted you to ask that question I just might try to answer it. Sure: " There apparently are conditions and limits on Bible promises... That is apparently the way with the intelligent designer as well. "I hope that helps. Since it did not copy here (yet), your question was ... You asked such a question apparently because you believe I said "we" may set conditions on God. That is not what I meant. I meant God put limits and conditions on the "his" promises as most people of even moderate intelligence already easily understand. Take another look at my words now. I do not conflate the God of the Bible with the intelligent designer because the intelligent designer is a fact of science and God is a matter beyond science often described as "art." I suspect your point in quoting scriptures was to make some case that God hands out powers frequently, far and wide. You didn't like it when I suggested he does not. That is however exactly what the intelligent designer means. No one can control the intelligent designer and no one can duplicate its powers. Of your "autistic brother" and yourself I suspect you are the worse off. I hope you get better.
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Post by goz on Aug 16, 2020 0:09:26 GMT
If it is beyond human comprehension, how do we know if it is truth or a lie? The obvious answer is 'faith' however if the intelligent designer is a lie, then faith is useless. can't know. If there were a picture in the dictionary next to the word useless, it might be someone we know from Australia. Yet again it remains my duty to point out to you that an ad hominem insult is not an argument. It is also pertinent to point out that you are reduced to this pathetic tactic when you actually have no answer to give or point or argument to make. So I repeat. How does anyone know that there is an intelligent designer and/ or that it is God?
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Post by goz on Aug 16, 2020 0:13:28 GMT
Sure: " There apparently are conditions and limits on Bible promises... That is apparently the way with the intelligent designer as well. "I hope that helps. Since it did not copy here (yet), your question was ... You asked such a question apparently because you believe I said "we" may set conditions on God. That is not what I meant. I meant God put limits and conditions on the "his" promises as most people of even moderate intelligence already easily understand. Take another look at my words now. I do not conflate the God of the Bible with the intelligent designer because the intelligent designer is a fact of science and God is a matter beyond science often described as "art." I suspect your point in quoting scriptures was to make some case that God hands out powers frequently, far and wide. You didn't like it when I suggested he does not. That is however exactly what the intelligent designer means. No one can control the intelligent designer and no one can duplicate its powers. Of your "autistic brother" and yourself I suspect you are the worse off. I hope you get better. So you believe that there is an intelligent designer AND a God This is a new ploy! LOL
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 0:15:08 GMT
You can't know. If there were a picture in the dictionary next to the word useless, it might be someone we know from Australia. Yet again it remains my duty to point out to you that an ad hominem insult is not an argument. It is also pertinent to point out that you are reduced to this pathetic tactic when you actually have no answer to give or point or argument to make. So I repeat. How does anyone know that there is an intelligent designer and/ or that it is God? I think it is very enlightening that you expect me to answer that here. Did you want five sentences? A paragraph? Five paragraphs? I suspect an adequate answer would take a very large book. It would be no simple book either, and might require years of study. I'm sorry your parents left you at the starting gate.
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Post by goz on Aug 16, 2020 0:18:01 GMT
Yet again it remains my duty to point out to you that an ad hominem insult is not an argument. It is also pertinent to point out that you are reduced to this pathetic tactic when you actually have no answer to give or point or argument to make. So I repeat. How does anyone know that there is an intelligent designer and/ or that it is God? I think it is very enlightening that you expect me to answer that here. Did you want five sentences? A paragraph? Five paragraphs? I suspect an adequate answer would take a very large book. It would be no simple book either, and might require years of study. I'm sorry your parents left you at the starting gate. I don't know, would have sufficed! ( preferably without yet another stupid ad hom )
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 0:19:52 GMT
Since it did not copy here (yet), your question was ... You asked such a question apparently because you believe I said "we" may set conditions on God. That is not what I meant. I meant God put limits and conditions on the "his" promises as most people of even moderate intelligence already easily understand. Take another look at my words now. I do not conflate the God of the Bible with the intelligent designer because the intelligent designer is a fact of science and God is a matter beyond science often described as "art." I suspect your point in quoting scriptures was to make some case that God hands out powers frequently, far and wide. You didn't like it when I suggested he does not. That is however exactly what the intelligent designer means. No one can control the intelligent designer and no one can duplicate its powers. Of your "autistic brother" and yourself I suspect you are the worse off. I hope you get better. So you believe that there is an intelligent designer AND a God This is a new ploy! LOL And that is just the beginning. I never said the intelligent designer cannot be the god of the Bible. It's just that we know the intelligent designer through the scientific method and the God of Bible through the people who follow and expound on it.
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Post by goz on Aug 16, 2020 0:24:41 GMT
So you believe that there is an intelligent designer AND a God This is a new ploy! LOL And that is just the beginning. I never said the intelligent designer cannot be the god of the Bible. It's just that we know the intelligent designer through the scientific method and the God of Bible through the people who follow and expound on it. Well, that pretty much sums it up since you don't atually understand the scientific method hence you believe in an intelligent designer. Those two are incompatible concepts since science supports evolution which rules out the possibiity of an intelligent designer. I see now why you are so confused. I still don't see how 'God' fits in, especially if you believe in that silly triumvirate stuff! It is getting pretty crowded on that head of the pin!
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 0:26:51 GMT
I think it is very enlightening that you expect me to answer that here. Did you want five sentences? A paragraph? Five paragraphs? I suspect an adequate answer would take a very large book. It would be no simple book either, and might require years of study. I'm sorry your parents left you at the starting gate. I don't know, would have sufficed! ( preferably without yet another stupid ad hom ) What it appears to me you want is to be a soldier who knows exactly what should be done in every case by every person. It bothers you that the power in the universe has left you out, has left you to tend to your own business, has prevented you from dictating anything with your bullhorn. That's not you? That's what "Christians" do? It's what you and some novice Christians do.
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Post by goz on Aug 16, 2020 0:38:09 GMT
I don't know, would have sufficed! ( preferably without yet another stupid ad hom ) What it appears to me you want is to be a soldier who knows exactly what should be done in every case by every person. It bothers you that the power in the universe has left you out, has left you to tend to your own business, has prevented you from dictating anything with your bullhorn. That's not you? That's what "Christians" do? It's what you and some novice Christians do. Was that word salad supposed to make any sense?
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 0:49:14 GMT
What it appears to me you want is to be a soldier who knows exactly what should be done in every case by every person. It bothers you that the power in the universe has left you out, has left you to tend to your own business, has prevented you from dictating anything with your bullhorn. That's not you? That's what "Christians" do? It's what you and some novice Christians do. Was that word salad supposed to make any sense? Not necessarily to you. What's wrong with word salads anyway? They might make you grow strong.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 16, 2020 0:51:32 GMT
Does nothing get through to you? Was my going over how the topic is not whether the Bible is true but instead whether the Bible CLAIMS to be true have no effect at all? So it appears (sadly).NOW.....finally.....your first words that actually address the topic. So, you wanna know, "Gee, just because scripture is "God-breathed", why should we think it would necessarily be claiming to be true?" First, my own thoughts. The connection between "God-breathed" and "true" can be assumed by default. If any "God-breathed" scripture is untrue, then God has mishandled inspiration; and God, by any religion's teaching, could not or would not do that. Therefore, the burden of proof is not on the one who accepts this connection, but rather on anyone who suggest it's not there. For further arguments regarding where the Bible (with other scriptures in addition to that one) CLAIMS that it is true, there are plenty of articles on line by the people who have made the Bible their field of study. If you need more info on how the Bible says it's true, just look them up. Or, if you want to save yourself the trouble, just jettison your unschooled notion that the Bible doesn't say it's true. I suppose you will claim you missed it, but the "color green" explanation has been on this board countless times. How do you describe the color green to a person blind since before birth "literally"? You can not! Only people who have already experienced green can know what you mean "literally" by the word "green." People who have seen green can readily know the "truth" about green. Other people must depend on indirect speech, allegory, parables, and other highly symbolic communication. Actually developing an understanding of green might take a lifetime. The "color green" explanation is irrelevant. If Jasper says that he is "dekkajnid" it doesn't matter if you know what dekkajnid means or if what Jasper says is true. It doesn't change the simple fact that Jasper says that he is.Literally true or figuratively true, or each in turn, it doesn't matter. You asserted that the Bible doesn't say it's true, but the Bible does claim to be true. If you wish to point to those parables and symbolism as proof that the Bible's claim to be true is a false claim, go right ahead. That's your affair. It still doesn't change the fact that the Bible claims to be true. I am now sure you will never look at any works written by assorted Bible scholars and theologians who will lay out various Bible passages and analysis on the subject. You much prefer to stay locked inside your own invented and baseless certitudes.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Aug 16, 2020 0:53:41 GMT
Even the Spirit of truth. Therefore seeking the spirit of truth is to seek truth itself and not an amorphous spook floating around waiting to be invited in. Sadly, I see very little of that kind of seeking and knowing among Republican Christians. Lies are much more comforting to them than the Truth, as I am sure you well know having lived on Planet Earth for a while and know some humans. DJT and his devoted cult of the Good Christian is evident of that. Also, science is a means to find the truth as well as we can know it, yet Conservative Christians have fought the advancement of science, ie truth seeking, to this very day. If you're going to define religion or Christianity by what DJT followers say or do, you're going to get terribly lost. I think you already are. They are the loudest and have considerable power and influence inside our government and GOP. Trump has them hoodwinked but they also can influence him to do stupid and dangerous shit. They in turn have elevated him as some kind of moral and political savior. And are helping him dismantle our Republic in his pursuit of power and money. Maybe you don’t care about America, but I do and these Christians are a clear and present danger to my nation. And their hypocrisy is off the charts. These guys represent the worse, but sadly also what’s typical in Christianity, yet we are all suppose to respect them, respect their faith? No way can I do that. Oh, Let me add, they are anti-intellectual rubes who don’t give shit about anyone but pet their political religion used to enforce their Christian Talibanism which includes destruction of planet in order hurry up Jesus’ Second Coming. They don’t about the environment. They are anti-life and nihilists. And they represent the current face of God to the world. Who wants to worship that?
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 1:04:23 GMT
I suppose you will claim you missed it, but the "color green" explanation has been on this board countless times. How do you describe the color green to a person blind since before birth "literally"? You can not! Only people who have already experienced green can know what you mean "literally" by the word "green." People who have seen green can readily know the "truth" about green. Other people must depend on indirect speech, allegory, parables, and other highly symbolic communication. Actually developing an understanding of green might take a lifetime. The "color green" explanation is irrelevant. If Jasper says that he is "dekkajnid" it doesn't matter if you know what dekkajnid means or if what Jasper says is true. It doesn't change the simple fact that Jasper says that he is.Literally true or figuratively true, or each in turn, it doesn't matter. You asserted that the Bible doesn't say it's true, but the Bible does claim to be true. If you wish to point to those parables and symbolism as proof that the Bible's claim to be true is a false claim, go right ahead. That's your affair. It still doesn't change the fact that the Bible claims to be true. I am now sure you will never look at any works written by assorted Bible scholars and theologians who will lay out various Bible passages and analysis on the subject. You much prefer to stay locked inside your own invented and baseless certitudes. You have a cripplingly simple notion of "truth." Are you ready to tell us exactly what the Bible means? Don't let me stop you. Some people would pay to see that.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 1:07:19 GMT
If you're going to define religion or Christianity by what DJT followers say or do, you're going to get terribly lost. I think you already are. They are the loudest and have considerable power and influence inside our government and GOP. Trump has them hoodwinked but they also can influence him to do stupid and dangerous shit. They in turn have elevated him as some kind of moral and political savior. And are helping him dismantle our Republic in his pursuit of power and money. Maybe you don’t care about America, but I do and these Christians are a clear and present danger to my nation. And their hypocrisy is off the charts. These guys represent the worse, but sadly also what’s typical in Christianity, yet we are all suppose to respect them, respect their faith? No way can I do that. Oh, Let me add, they are anti-intellectual rubes who don’t give shit about anyone but pet their political religion used to enforce their Christian Talibanism which includes destruction of planet in order hurry up Jesus’ Second Coming. They don’t about the environment. They are anti-life and nihilists. And they represent the current face of God to the world. Who wants to worship that? You and they are two sides of the same bad coin.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Aug 16, 2020 1:09:13 GMT
They are the loudest and have considerable power and influence inside our government and GOP. Trump has them hoodwinked but they also can influence him to do stupid and dangerous shit. They in turn have elevated him as some kind of moral and political savior. And are helping him dismantle our Republic in his pursuit of power and money. Maybe you don’t care about America, but I do and these Christians are a clear and present danger to my nation. And their hypocrisy is off the charts. These guys represent the worse, but sadly also what’s typical in Christianity, yet we are all suppose to respect them, respect their faith? No way can I do that. Oh, Let me add, they are anti-intellectual rubes who don’t give shit about anyone but pet their political religion used to enforce their Christian Talibanism which includes destruction of planet in order hurry up Jesus’ Second Coming. They don’t about the environment. They are anti-life and nihilists. And they represent the current face of God to the world. Who wants to worship that? You and they are two sides of the same bad coin. Nope. You are delusional.
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Post by Isapop on Aug 16, 2020 1:46:11 GMT
The "color green" explanation is irrelevant. If Jasper says that he is "dekkajnid" it doesn't matter if you know what dekkajnid means or if what Jasper says is true. It doesn't change the simple fact that Jasper says that he is.Literally true or figuratively true, or each in turn, it doesn't matter. You asserted that the Bible doesn't say it's true, but the Bible does claim to be true. If you wish to point to those parables and symbolism as proof that the Bible's claim to be true is a false claim, go right ahead. That's your affair. It still doesn't change the fact that the Bible claims to be true. I am now sure you will never look at any works written by assorted Bible scholars and theologians who will lay out various Bible passages and analysis on the subject. You much prefer to stay locked inside your own invented and baseless certitudes. You have a cripplingly simple notion of "truth." Are you ready to tell us exactly what the Bible means? Don't let me stop you. Some people would pay to see that. I don't need ANY notion of the truth, you boob. Just as I already and futilely explained, we don't need to know what "dekkajnid" is to know whether or not Jasper claims to be that. And we don't need to know what the truth is to know that the Bible says it's the truth. By now, I'm certain that the average 4th grader would understand.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 3:47:10 GMT
You have a cripplingly simple notion of "truth." Are you ready to tell us exactly what the Bible means? Don't let me stop you. Some people would pay to see that. I don't need ANY notion of the truth, you boob. Just as I already and futilely explained, we don't need to know what "dekkajnid" is to know whether or not Jasper claims to be that. And we don't need to know what the truth is to know that the Bible says it's the truth. By now, I'm certain that the average 4th grader would understand. You don't. Your team isn't hitched to your cart, dude.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 16, 2020 3:53:36 GMT
You and they are two sides of the same bad coin. Nope. You are delusional. Exactly which delusion do you mean? Seeing I haven't expressed all that much.
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