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Post by clusium on Aug 16, 2020 15:23:11 GMT
Witchcraft/Wicca is for teenage girls. I am an occult snob. Wicca is only one type of witchcraft.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 16, 2020 16:28:47 GMT
FilmFlaneur said: [ full text here] < clips >
- Thank you for your opinion, and you are welcome to it
- the Trinity, which is not something 'vague and nebulous'
- With the limited information on these boards it can be difficult to form substantive opinions.
- I'll have to reply to that later. My computer screen got sprayed with coffee.
i. And yet we are so fortunate that you regularly offer them anyway. ii. I am pleased that it was only coffee.
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Post by Zos on Aug 16, 2020 17:48:09 GMT
Witchcraft/Wicca is for teenage girls. I am an occult snob. Wicca is only one type of witchcraft. Well, Wicca was invented by Gardner, stealing a lot from Crowley in the late 40's and 50's. Other variations tend to just be elements of "paganism" along with new age ideas lashed together in rather a pic 'n' mix fashion. Teenage programmes and films have certainly had a large element in the expansion and inclusion of feminist views into the patchwork quilt. Even in serious Occultism though the pic 'n' mix aspect has been adopted in ideas such as the 80's invention of Chaos Magic. Orders such as the OTO or the AA tend to be on the outside looking in these days. I am delighted when I see serious sigil work being included by anyone though. Austin Osman Spare was a giant too often overlooked.
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Post by clusium on Aug 16, 2020 19:00:19 GMT
Wicca is only one type of witchcraft. Well, Wicca was invented by Gardner, stealing a lot from Crowley in the late 40's and 50's. Other variations tend to just be elements of "paganism" along with new age ideas lashed together in rather a pic 'n' mix fashion. Teenage programmes and films have certainly had a large element in the expansion and inclusion of feminist views into the patchwork quilt. Even in serious Occultism though the pic 'n' mix aspect has been adopted in ideas such as the 80's invention of Chaos Magic. Orders such as the OTO or the AA tend to be on the outside looking in these days. I am delighted when I see serious sigil work being included by anyone though. Austin Osman Spare was a giant too often overlooked. Yeah, I think I read somewhere that L. Ron Hubbard was a disciple of Crowley too. Yeah, it wasn't until Wicca came along that witchcraft became synonymous with paganism. Up until then, they were both considered completely separate subjects. In fact, people suspected of practicing witchcraft in ancient pagan societies were feared & persecuted, just like they would be later in Christian societies.
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Post by maya55555 on Aug 17, 2020 0:37:16 GMT
hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/29049/what-does-thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch-to-live-mean/31961Rather than command us to put witches to death (just like any other death penalty in the Pentateuch) the bible here instructs others (perhaps the courts) to not let any witches live, which seems to be a simple translation of this verse from Hebrew to english. Rashbam notes that this must be a specific instruction given to others to "hunt them down", because witches tended to practice witchcraft in hiding. Shadal follows this understanding as well. (Various other Jewish commentaries suggest that this language is used to teach us that the commandment is to kill witches immediately however possible, as opposed to waiting for judgment.) Mecklenburg suggests that this wording is used as a parallel to Deuteronomy 20:16, which refers to the killing of all of the Canaanite Nations, and tells us that we should not have mercy, even on women. This applies here as well, where the verse is discussing witchcraft, which was generally performed by women.
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Post by Zos on Aug 17, 2020 12:30:24 GMT
Well, Wicca was invented by Gardner, stealing a lot from Crowley in the late 40's and 50's. Other variations tend to just be elements of "paganism" along with new age ideas lashed together in rather a pic 'n' mix fashion. Teenage programmes and films have certainly had a large element in the expansion and inclusion of feminist views into the patchwork quilt. Even in serious Occultism though the pic 'n' mix aspect has been adopted in ideas such as the 80's invention of Chaos Magic. Orders such as the OTO or the AA tend to be on the outside looking in these days. I am delighted when I see serious sigil work being included by anyone though. Austin Osman Spare was a giant too often overlooked. Yeah, I think I read somewhere that L. Ron Hubbard was a disciple of Crowley too. Yeah, it wasn't until Wicca came along that witchcraft became synonymous with paganism. Up until then, they were both considered completely separate subjects. In fact, people suspected of practicing witchcraft in ancient pagan societies were feared & persecuted, just like they would be later in Christian societies. Hubbard latched onto a guy called Jack Parsons who was a rocket scientist and ran the Californian "Agape" lodge of the OTO. Hubbard ended up running off with Parson's wife, stole his boat and a lot of his money too. Crowley threw Hubbard out of the OTO as soon as he heard about him considering him a low life. Important to also remember that "pagan" and heathen, although widely accepted by people who call themselves it today, started off as a considerable insult directed at anyone who worshipped more than one God by the Christians as they set out to destroy the ancient world. You could almost liken it to black folk happily calling themselves n#####s in today's world. The idea of paganism persecuting witchcraft was probably true in Greek antiquity before Constantine converted to Christianity but most often they coexisted fairly peacefully. People saw religion back then as a celebratory act and as long as no one bothered anyone else, they tended to get along. It was only with Christianity in the 3rd and 4th Centuries that people were forced to follow the one God and all other wonderful ideas were considered heresy and all traces of them attempted to be wiped out.
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Post by clusium on Aug 17, 2020 13:17:21 GMT
Yeah, I think I read somewhere that L. Ron Hubbard was a disciple of Crowley too. Yeah, it wasn't until Wicca came along that witchcraft became synonymous with paganism. Up until then, they were both considered completely separate subjects. In fact, people suspected of practicing witchcraft in ancient pagan societies were feared & persecuted, just like they would be later in Christian societies. Hubbard latched onto a guy called Jack Parsons who was a rocket scientist and ran the Californian "Agape" lodge of the OTO. Hubbard ended up running off with Parson's wife, stole his boat and a lot of his money too. Crowley threw Hubbard out of the OTO as soon as he heard about him considering him a low life. Important to also remember that "pagan" and heathen, although widely accepted by people who call themselves it today, started off as a considerable insult directed at anyone who worshipped more than one God by the Christians as they set out to destroy the ancient world. You could almost liken it to black folk happily calling themselves n#####s in today's world. The idea of paganism persecuting witchcraft was probably true in Greek antiquity before Constantine converted to Christianity but most often they coexisted fairly peacefully. People saw religion back then as a celebratory act and as long as no one bothered anyone else, they tended to get along. It was only with Christianity in the 3rd and 4th Centuries that people were forced to follow the one God and all other wonderful ideas were considered heresy and all traces of them attempted to be wiped out. Yeah, I guess he would be considered a low life for stealing another man's wife. Perhaps people should have been wary of such a man, before joining any "new religion" started by someone like that. No, the ancient Greeks weren't the only ones that feared witches. Other cultures did too. Witchcraft
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 17, 2020 19:05:48 GMT
Hubbard latched onto a guy called Jack Parsons who was a rocket scientist and ran the Californian "Agape" lodge of the OTO. Hubbard ended up running off with Parson's wife, stole his boat and a lot of his money too. Crowley threw Hubbard out of the OTO as soon as he heard about him considering him a low life. Important to also remember that "pagan" and heathen, although widely accepted by people who call themselves it today, started off as a considerable insult directed at anyone who worshipped more than one God by the Christians as they set out to destroy the ancient world. You could almost liken it to black folk happily calling themselves n#####s in today's world. The idea of paganism persecuting witchcraft was probably true in Greek antiquity before Constantine converted to Christianity but most often they coexisted fairly peacefully. People saw religion back then as a celebratory act and as long as no one bothered anyone else, they tended to get along. It was only with Christianity in the 3rd and 4th Centuries that people were forced to follow the one God and all other wonderful ideas were considered heresy and all traces of them attempted to be wiped out. Yeah, I guess he would be considered a low life for stealing another man's wife. Perhaps people should have been wary of such a man, before joining any "new religion" started by someone like that. You worship a deity which supposedly impregnated another man's wife, right? But I guess it would have been impossible for the Almighty to make a human being out of nothing and wives were thought differently of in the ancient world.
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Post by clusium on Aug 17, 2020 19:20:54 GMT
Yeah, I guess he would be considered a low life for stealing another man's wife. Perhaps people should have been wary of such a man, before joining any "new religion" started by someone like that. You worship a deity which supposedly impregnated another man's wife, right? But I guess it would have been impossible for the Almighty to make a human being out of nothing and wives were thought differently of in the ancient world. Both Our Lady & St. Joseph Belong to God.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 17, 2020 19:31:26 GMT
You worship a deity which supposedly impregnated another man's wife, right? But I guess it would have been impossible for the Almighty to make a human being out of nothing and wives were thought differently of in the ancient world. Both Our Lady & St. Joseph Belong to God. She certainly did after he worked his magic.
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Post by goz on Aug 17, 2020 21:26:43 GMT
You worship a deity which supposedly impregnated another man's wife, right? But I guess it would have been impossible for the Almighty to make a human being out of nothing and wives were thought differently of in the ancient world. Both Our Lady & St. Joseph Belong to God. LOL. Have you forgotten about that tricky little thing called free will and you asserting that god would NEVER interfere with free will?
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Post by clusium on Aug 17, 2020 23:07:19 GMT
Both Our Lady & St. Joseph Belong to God. LOL. Have you forgotten about that tricky little thing called free will and you asserting that god would NEVER interfere with free will? No I haven't forgotten. Both Our Blessed Mother and St. Joseph freely chose to belong to God.
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Post by goz on Aug 17, 2020 23:15:55 GMT
LOL. Have you forgotten about that tricky little thing called free will and you asserting that god would NEVER interfere with free will? No I haven't forgotten. Both Our Blessed Mother and St. Joseph freely chose to belong to God. How do you know that? It seems like the usual emotional blackmail employed by the Christain (especially Catholic) church in action.
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Post by clusium on Aug 18, 2020 4:18:07 GMT
No I haven't forgotten. Both Our Blessed Mother and St. Joseph freely chose to belong to God. How do you know that? It seems like the usual emotional blackmail employed by the Christain (especially Catholic) church in action. Hmmmmm.....let's see. Mary's response in the first chapter of St. Luke, when St. Gabriel announces to her that God Chose her to become the Mother Of His Son, pretty much shows that she chose to belong to Him ("Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word"). St. Joseph obeying God in marrying Mary in the first chapter of St. Matthew, after it is revealed that the Child Whom Mary is expecting is God's Son; also in the second chapter of St. Matthew, when St. Joseph obeys God in taking the Child and His Blessed Mother into Egypt in order to save Him & His Mother from being persecuted by Herod the Great.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 18, 2020 7:49:19 GMT
How do you know that? It seems like the usual emotional blackmail employed by the Christain (especially Catholic) church in action. Hmmmmm.....let's see. Mary's response in the first chapter of St. Luke, when St. Gabriel announces to her that God Chose her to become the Mother Of His Son, pretty much shows that she chose to belong to Him ("Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word"). St. Joseph obeying God in marrying Mary in the first chapter of St. Matthew, after it is revealed that the Child Whom Mary is expecting is God's Son; also in the second chapter of St. Matthew, when St. Joseph obeys God in taking the Child and His Blessed Mother into Egypt in order to save Him & His Mother from being persecuted by Herod the Great. Christians commonly refer to her as the Virgin Mary, in accordance with the belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated her, thereby conceiving her first-born Jesus miraculously, without sexual relations with her betrothed/husband, "until her son [Jesus] was born", but naturally without any record of a medical examination confirming matters. (Mt 1:25) But the fact remains that while she was busy with the Almighty she was already betrothed or married to Joseph.
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Post by goz on Aug 18, 2020 8:01:04 GMT
Hmmmmm.....let's see. Mary's response in the first chapter of St. Luke, when St. Gabriel announces to her that God Chose her to become the Mother Of His Son, pretty much shows that she chose to belong to Him ("Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word"). St. Joseph obeying God in marrying Mary in the first chapter of St. Matthew, after it is revealed that the Child Whom Mary is expecting is God's Son; also in the second chapter of St. Matthew, when St. Joseph obeys God in taking the Child and His Blessed Mother into Egypt in order to save Him & His Mother from being persecuted by Herod the Great. Christians commonly refer to her as the Virgin Mary, in accordance with the belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated her, thereby conceiving her first-born Jesus miraculously, without sexual relations with her betrothed/husband, "until her son [Jesus] was born", but naturally without any record of a medical examination confirming matters. (Mt 1:25) But the fact remains that while she was busy with the Almighty she was already betrothed or married to Joseph. ..yet more Christian special pleadings that are diametrically opposed to their 'normal' morality!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 18, 2020 18:57:05 GMT
Christians commonly refer to her as the Virgin Mary, in accordance with the belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated her, thereby conceiving her first-born Jesus miraculously, without sexual relations with her betrothed/husband, "until her son [Jesus] was born", but naturally without any record of a medical examination confirming matters. (Mt 1:25) But the fact remains that while she was busy with the Almighty she was already betrothed or married to Joseph. ..yet more Christian special pleadings that are diametrically opposed to their 'normal' morality! Even more mind boggling is the perpetual virginity of Mary, the doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ... Mary's pre-birth virginity (unless one wishes to revive the "young woman controversy) is supposedly attested in the New Testament, but there is no biblical basis for her perpetual virginity. Some in the early church believed this, but I am not sure if it is still common. An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many. This belief conveniently ignores the Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) which mention James, Joseph/Joses, Judas/Jude and Simon as brothers of Jesus, the son of Mary. The same verses also mention unnamed sisters of Jesus. Mark (3:31-32) tells about Jesus' mother and brothers looking for Jesus. As one might expect the special pleading and qualification around these passages interpret 'sister' and 'brother' not in the most commonly understood way.
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Post by goz on Aug 18, 2020 23:02:59 GMT
..yet more Christian special pleadings that are diametrically opposed to their 'normal' morality! Even more mind boggling is the perpetual virginity of Mary, the doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ... Mary's pre-birth virginity (unless one wishes to revive the "young woman controversy) is supposedly attested in the New Testament, but there is no biblical basis for her perpetual virginity. Some in the early church believed this, but I am not sure if it is still common. An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many. This belief conveniently ignores the Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) which mention James, Joseph/Joses, Judas/Jude and Simon as brothers of Jesus, the son of Mary. The same verses also mention unnamed sisters of Jesus. Mark (3:31-32) tells about Jesus' mother and brothers looking for Jesus. As one might expect the special pleading and qualification around these passages interpret 'sister' and 'brother' not in the most commonly understood way. Yes. There are no ends to the defences in this regard. Personally I think it encapsulated the cognitive dissonance, that is endemic in Christianty, with particualr referecne to the Catholic Church with their canonisation of Mary. We (they expect us) are expected to believe that the physicality of sexual congress to produce a child, even of God and the birth, and perhaps even other births of sublings...is somehow' holy, inviolate and 'special' ie NOT of this earth. That faith can make normally sensible people disconnect that much from reality is really poweful....and sad IMHO.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Aug 19, 2020 5:31:49 GMT
Hmmmmm.....let's see. Mary's response in the first chapter of St. Luke, when St. Gabriel announces to her that God Chose her to become the Mother Of His Son, pretty much shows that she chose to belong to Him ("Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word"). St. Joseph obeying God in marrying Mary in the first chapter of St. Matthew, after it is revealed that the Child Whom Mary is expecting is God's Son; also in the second chapter of St. Matthew, when St. Joseph obeys God in taking the Child and His Blessed Mother into Egypt in order to save Him & His Mother from being persecuted by Herod the Great. Christians commonly refer to her as the Virgin Mary, in accordance with the belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated her, thereby conceiving her first-born Jesus miraculously, without sexual relations with her betrothed/husband, "until her son [Jesus] was born", but naturally without any record of a medical examination confirming matters. (Mt 1:25) But the fact remains that while she was busy with the Almighty she was already betrothed or married to Joseph. Joseph was Mary’s beard. I think the gospel writers understood there was a problem with an unmarried girl showing up in the marketplace with a baby bump. The “an angel appeared in the middle of the night and knocked me up” would not work on a lot people. Especially since a favorite village pastime was stoning loose women to death.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2020 3:30:57 GMT
Christians commonly refer to her as the Virgin Mary, in accordance with the belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated her, thereby conceiving her first-born Jesus miraculously, without sexual relations with her betrothed/husband, "until her son [Jesus] was born", but naturally without any record of a medical examination confirming matters. (Mt 1:25) But the fact remains that while she was busy with the Almighty she was already betrothed or married to Joseph. Joseph was Mary’s beard. I think the gospel writers understood there was a problem with an unmarried girl showing up in the marketplace with a baby bump. The “an angel appeared in the middle of the night and knocked me up” would not work on a lot people. Especially since a favorite village pastime was stoning loose women to death. Too bad TV wasn't around then...she would have her own series... Fucked by an Angel.
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